Greg well said ! I don't know about that pasta thing though!:lol:

This turned out to be a very good thread for any new car builds & builds that are in progress to use as a gauge for there projects.:lateral:



Randy(D&Z Customs LLC.)
[email protected]
1-262-347-9741

i get depressed when i cant buy billet hinges ,lsx engine, paddle shift ect.then i start to think about a few years ago when i was in the hospital for 14 days .my half ass pro touring camaro is a luxury in my life and it will wait for me no matter how many years it takes.
i used to make very good money,i bought 5 vipers 3 vettes numerous hot rods ect all in like 6 years.someone underbid all my contract work and now im out.it was a life changing ordeal but i have my health.i buy a few small parts here and there now and ive learned to live with doing without stuff .it sucks that alot of guys get frustrated and sell but everyone has different things going on in there lives.not being able to finish a car build is better than losing your house .sorry for my grammer im working on it.:unibrow:

Well... I wasn't trying to write a book, but thanks to those that 'understand'. I was just trying to convey what the hobby is for me. I know it's different for everyone... but the history of the hobby is more about a bunch of guys building stuff together... with what skills and parts they had to offer...

Lat G is kind of a modern version of that... we can meet whenever we want to... and offer what we can - encouragement - disgust - the finger (from Todd) - ideas - and the camaraderie.

I want the pro builds to be awesome... and if my stuff can just copy 10% of it - I'm a happy guy... without the pros and the pro builds we will have lost something to dream about. SO kudos to all of those guys! To me - the pro builds are like Pro athletes... without the pros - we wouldn't have millions of kids out there trying to be just like them...

I had no idea there were so many dirty shop floors out there!!:lol:

On a serious thread related note, we are currently building a shop car that (i hope) most people will relate too. In a sea of current high caliber / high profile builds, i set out to build a car that most people can afford. After years of trying to keep up with the jones's etc the reality is that most of the people calling or visiting the shop cant relate to why a car of that caliber costs so much. I as much as the next guy love a great piece of eye candy that can and will whip up on a new vette but the bottom line is that most people cant afford such a build. I get a few calls a week from people that want a complete custom pro-touring with the usual LS, 6sp, 14" 6 pistons mini tubed, paint, interior etc etc then say they have $10k cash. What am I to say to that ?
So after a long design and thought process it was apparent that I should try to meet the demand of those who inquire. First we chose a car we believe is becoming very popular right now. Then we set out to minimize cost by lessening the amount of fabrication (which simply is time multiplied by hourly rate) and focuss on attention to detail while using for the most part aftermarket bolt-on parts in lieu of over the top fabrication mods. It will most certainly be as eye popping and appealing as most high end builds without the extra performance mods that drive a TRUE pro-touring machines build cost up and place them in a performance catogory of there own. That said, will it compete with them ? Definetly NOT because most people will do more street driving than track racing. Will it be of the same caliber as one ? Definetly NOT by a longshot. But it will make people think that something practical can be built with somewhat of a normal mans wallet.
We'll post a build thread soon.

ps... great thread.

Chad you are so right, those are the memories that matter most... not a day goes by that I don't think about the times spent with my Dad. Great that you have this in common, enjoy every possible minute. -Rob

Hi, my name is Jeff and i'm an addict. isn't that the first step, admitting you have a problem? I have one car pretty much finished and I have very little interest in it. I've moved on to the next one. For me it's all about building, fabing, gathering the parts and making the decisions on which way to go. When the ideas get completed I move on to the next challenge. I also have a hard time letting go of them even though I dont dricve them or do anything with them. I only seem to let go when space is an issue. Do i need help or what?

I just don't get it. How can you spend 1000's of hours and not drive the car. To me that's like chasing a hot chick, taking her out dancing(I hate dancing), romancing her, and you finally get her buck naked and don't go the distance. Getting that far was good enough. That makes me want to bang my head on the wall just thinking about it. :rofl: Just seeing mine ripped apart in the garage is less than exciting. In fact, I'm almost to the point where I only work on it so I can drive it or make it faster. Of course I'm towards the end of a very long build here. The do overs aren't that great either. I guess if you never drive them you don't have to worry about that now do you? LOL Maybe I'm just bitter because mines broke!

For me, reaching the end of the excersize has never been the point of the excersize. You have difficulty seeing why someone spends all that time on car that doesn't drive just like I have difficulty seeing someone give someone else a six figure sum to build them a car.

I could always pay someone else to put a car together for me, but what does that give me other than an empty wallet?

When I finish a project and get it on the road, the only thing I can think of is "ok, what now?". That is not to say I don't enjoy driving the cars I build, I just happen to prefer the building process. And that's (a) why I'll never get rid of my projects in a half-finished state and (b) why my projects are never finished.

There are times when I would rather dump the car off a cliff than work on it, but I always come back to it.

Been there, done that. My wife actually printed up $1000 bills with our picture on the face because every time we turned around, we were dropping another g note because we figured "we've gone this far, we may as well add that".

Now my Camaro went the same route, with half of the DSE catalog on it and more billet widgets than you can count on your fingers and toes.

OK, Flame suit on!

I think a lot of the project for sales are guys who to a second mortgage on the home to build a toy.

My philosophy is not that thing are to expensive, it's that you can't afford it.

As long as we deal with thing on the outside, you'll never fix the problem which is you.

Go out and make it happen, take care of the family and your responsibilities and than you can buy your toy and you wont have to worry about the economy or whatever.

You have to think winter in the summer.
Don't wish things were easier, wish you were better.
Don't wish for less problems, which for more skills.

OK, off the soap box.

:cheers:

I believe alot of the most projects problems are two things:

1) We have alot of high profile cars on this site and not very many times is the true price of what those cars cost to build shared with the public. A guy just getting started or not very experienced wants to build a car like we see on this site and has no clue of what that will cost him to fully complete. Most have no idea how long it even takes a shop to assemble a car after all fab and paint is done. This leads to my next point.

2) In the last few years we have had a bunch of new shops come to the table and try to build these cars for our members. Most time the new shop is not experienced enough to accurately relay to the customer what it would cost and low balls just to get the work. Then half way through he has burned through the guys budget and the car is not anywhere close to being done and most of time is not done right. I have seen several cars that guys have spent hard earned money on and have to pay someone again to fix the problem. We have a couple on this site that have been bit by this. So if you want high end go to the guys that are proven. It costs alot of money so just understand that.

This is a great thread and could go on forever, just some input!

I'm building a Mopar (not much for economical parts) pro-touring project.

I really feel that the majority of people on this site and PT.com can't afford the pro builder to actually build the project (at least I can't!). I do think that there are some exceptions or possibly someone without the fab skills, shop, space, time, commitment and a large desire that hires the complete build. Nothing wrong with that at all. I wish I could for a lot of the build..no flame I appreciate the pro builder and those hiring these awesome shops!

I know my industry (electrical construction/management-I'm a project manager) has take a very large hit this last year. I'd say 1/3 less wage this year and most likely next. So that in line I definitely look at costs and it does slow the process of the build. Everything depends on the next big purchase. Tranny=crossmember and angle, mini tubs=rear suspension=rear end width=suspension, etc. etc. etc.

It is sad that some major projects are being sold right now. But if it is to save the house, feed the family, etc. So be it. Otherwise i hope they hang on an ride it out The car will still be there next year!

Wes

Yea, just finished that as well... If you think a car has cost over runs it's nothing compared to a custom house! Doom and gloom needs to end. It's making the car hobby less fun....

At least if you do it right and have a good sense of market understanding and timing, you can and will make money with that house.


You guys nailed it there.

Todd, you're always good for a laugh. But that analogy is pretty spot on for me! I get pissed when I think it's taken 3 years to build my frickin car.

This can very well be true in some of the cases, but you don't know that for sure.

It can simply be a matter of prioritization.

Great thread!

Great thread! Seems like I can identify with a part of every single post made thus far. I personally like Greg's comments about the added feature of the hobby bringing new friends along your path--it is a great ancillary side affect.

Personally, since I got my first 69 at the age of 16 and still have it, it was all I ever wanted--never got into any form of drinking or drugs, spent every waking moment and every penny on that car---it's now my race car. For me, back then, it was a form of identity. Now, it is purely for the love of the hobby/sport and the friends and fellowship that come with it. I can honestly say that I am emotionally attached to the race car--it carried me though and kept me occupied through some tough times. I've had people ask me how I can be so into this (doesnt' make sense to some of them as professionals) since I don't fit their perception of a gearhead---I don't want to know why I love it---ignorance is bliss in this case---and I'm glad I still have such a huge passion for it.

I say all that to say this---for many folks, it's still a form of identity--we all know some of these guys/gals where it is hardcore identity--and when that's the case, they will have to have the best of everything--and if that shoe fits, man--this site has the capacity to destroy a savings account quickly which often forces the sale of the project. There are so many perfect and off the chart cars here---it's like going grocery shopping hungry--you come back with way too much food which means you spent way more than you should have.

I've fallen into spending way too much so many times simply out of just not wanting to wait---I call that greed--sounds like I am not the only one!

I like my new approach with the PT car, one mod at a time---refine that mod, move onto the next one--it will never be the nicest car, but I dont' care. It has to be fun and I don't want a blown apart project--I have the race car for that--and it sucks to have to work on it all the time and then wait for what will break next. If it starts to be a "have to work on it" for me, then I will think about getting rid of it.

In the end, there are obviously many reasons for the abandement of unfinished projects. I always have a soft spot in my heart for those who run into this since I can't imagine them sharing the same passion I/we feel for these cars and then having to let it go---family first, I understand that--but the death or end of a dream is very, very hard to take. A good solid plan up front (I'm convinced) like others here have mentioned, and an rock solid commitment to stick to it (which is even harder to make happen) is the only way to go for someone starting out in this hobby/sport. It's what I will tell my kids when they are old enough to get swept up into this wonderful mess.

Doug

Doug,
I agree after speaking with you a few times that you don't fit the boiler plate car addict personaltiy. In fact after dealing with literally 1,000's of folks over the years I'd nail you at a psychologist or financial advisor. I'm sure I'm way off.

I envy you a little bit. You have the perfect car for exaclty what I'm talking about. Add this or that as money is available or it makes sense. I've yet to see your car but I will soon. At the end of the day, you will be competitive with me and have half what I do in my car.

I had a good solid plan and it's somewhere around here? I'm only at double my original plan so I'm about average. :D

Whether people are able to keep or have to sell their cars for whatever reason, that is a great point about these things bringing people together from all over the country and world sometimes and creating new friendships. Those can outlast the cars.

Cheers to my fellow Pro Touring and Lateral G biatches! :lol: :cheers:

You drinking?:rofl:

You're wrong Todd --- Doug is a janitor... and a darn good one!

Not since this morning. :_paranoid

Dude---LOL----now that's funny right there---

Yep--always cleaning up after others---it certainly fits in many ways for sure--

That's pretty good man---you certainly get a good read on folks--I'm actually a Controller for a University here in So Cal---

Funny thing is, I want my stuff to be as nice as yours---just won't let myself--yet--I'm sure the greed will kick in once the cars are together in June---LOL --If Dave also brings his, I can guarantee a major decrease in the savings account.

Just trying to keep Todd off balance...
:rofl:

Didn't think about the janitor comment and your real occupation -- does kinda fit though!

All in good fun...

Is that what they call a Janitor nowadways?:rofl: Can't wait to see you in June.:thumbsup:

Slight hijack....
No difference here either guys. You set the budget for your vision and almost 100% of cost over runs are due to client redirection and over-selection. Doesn't matter if its 2000 or 20,000 sq. ft. (auto- mild build/mega build) Homes are always a fixed price with slotted allowances (auto-typically always hourly)which I assume both Jeff and Dave know. Just giving insight to those that haven't built. Most likely not , but if there's a developer out there that charges by the hour like this auto industry, I will go out of may way to shake his hand. Side note- Sorry Jeff being local and all, just wanted to rattle your cage for going with somebody else LOL

Great thread, excellent insight. And I would like to nominate Greg as our spokesman on wisdom. Scott can we get a Lat g wisdom sticky.

Now I understand....

Ok, seeing as how my father and I are just about done with our car, I think we've learned just enough to contribute to this conversation. First, this site is horrible on the check book, especially for someone looking to start a build. There are a ton of really well built, high end cars on here, with all of the right parts. When we first got our car back from Vegas it was just a clean shell that that barely rolled. The first thing we needed then was suspension. Going in to the project I had done a ton of research on parts. I knew what what was good, what was bad, and what was average, and I wanted something that was well balanced. I didn't want to have great suspension and crappy wheels, motor, etc. or vice versa. We knew we wanted it mini-tubbed and the shop we sent it to was a dealer for DSE, they talked my dad into their sub and quadralink. From that moment on our budget was ruined because every successive part we ordered or mod done had to be built to that same level. As inexperienced owners, with little more than a passion and appreciation for the hobby we knew it would get expensive. It is ridiculously easy to spend each month without realizing what the build totals after a year. Before our car even got to bodywork we had 65 grand wrapped up in it. We were fortunate enough not to worry too much about running way over budget, and figured if we'd come this far, we might as well go the rest of the way. Even so, it has been hard at times justifying this money pit of ours. If things were different I could easily see us trying to sell after realizing how much nice paint and an interior cost. Hell, if you include a shop handling wiring and final assembly you realize you could buy a new Vette and a daily driver or two instead of finishing the car, that seems more reasonable, which is downright frightening.

Be wary, I'm sure there are more of us morons out there than there appear to be
Anyway, that has been my experience, that is, the experience of the unskilled "drug addict" type that is new to the hobby. We fell into the crowd of people that really need to take their budget, double it, then add 15-25% to get what they envisioned. I suppose I'd agree that it would be easy for one's vision to easily become too big for his bank account. Or, at the very least too big for the budget, which is were we fall, and from the looks of it we are in good company with Todd and others.

Matt

Hey Matt,
You'll find that the dse sub and quad make that car. You made the right decision. The problem which you nailed is following that trend. All I can say is get out and use the car. Don't be afraid to put a scratch in it. All that will end up doing is lose more money.

My car is no where near finished yet. It is also WAY over budget, but since it has been built on available funds and not credit, and as it has been built over the course of a few too many years, there has been no pinch because of this.

I think there are two rules that will keep any project, and any family for that matter, out of financial trouble.

Rule 1: Money makes an excellent servent, but a most tyrannical master.

Rule 2: Credit, like any power tool, when used properly and with the appropriate respect and care can be most useful. Also, like any power tool, if it is abused or used with any degree of carelessness, it can cause serious and permanent damage to the user.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

As a person that is somewhat new to this site and the pro-touring site I understand how projects get out of control and become never ending piles of money. In my experience and realize most of my experience is in restoration with slight modifications you can always spend more. My problem is that if I make a car too nice it never gets driven. It’s a silly concept I know because I thought the reason we built them was to drive them and the nicer the car the more you should want to drive it. I find myself going into a preservation mode and trying to avoid wear and tear on it.

My biggest fear in my build is exactly that I build too nice of a car (over a 3 year period because of budget costs) and I wipe it with a diaper on sunny days in July. I take it to a few local shows here and there and then become frustrated and sell it. I am trying to keep a lid on it, but it is so hard not to buy 600.00 hood hinges and billet tail lights and other awesome parts. I am somewhere in between a junkie and a collector someone please help…..

When I first joined the site I had a vision, unfortunately someone already built it, Todd’s car is exactly what I would build, but after carefully and painfully examining the cost to build a car of that magnitude I came to the conclusion it would become a garage ornament and HOW much fun would that be in the grand scheme of things. I really appreciate this thread because it drove home the idea that I need to make some decisions and I need to gain some more knowledge before I choose a direction. I refuse to build a trailer queen and if I say it 12 times a day maybe I will succeed.

Once again thanks everyone for the awesome thread it may save a few of us from making big mistakes!

:thumbsup:

Alot of good points on this thread. My car was to be a COPO clone when I started five years ago. Thats until I found this site. I found out real fast that this was not going to be a cheap venture. I just think eveyone starts out with good intensions. But things always change for what ever reason. We have one member that has to stop because of health reason and we have some that have financial ,or just no more interest. You can go on and on . You just don't know what tommorow will bring..:cheers:

Drive 'em!!

After doing a bazillion dollars in paint and bodywork THE FIRST TIME AROUND -- when they get all road rashed... it's a simple scuff and re-shoot.... the body is already flat... and the trim all fits... Most all of these cars are stored indoors and rarely "fade"... so if it's just the front that gets a little messy - guaranteed the painter can blend it.

Trust me on this one -- it's not that big of a deal -- and is down right CHEAP compared to the dough you WERE spending on the build originally. After you've owned the car 5 - 6 - 10 years - it needs fresh wheels and some interior cleaning and re-carpet - and the motor is dirty. Big whoop - that's what winters are for - yank it - clean it - freshen a bit - and relive the fantasy all over again -- RIGHT TODD? :rofl:

I drove my 67 BB Vette from here to Bloomington - via Yellowstone which was repaving about 6 miles of road - which meant ROCKS... big whoop I drove slowly for a whole 6 miles... out of a zillion mile 9 day trip.. The nose got painted and the seats where re-done (they're leather so show "wear" instantly) when I got home and before the next regional NCRS meet... My then 10 year old is still telling his friends about that trip - he's 23 now... THAT MY FRIENDS is what this HOBBY is all about... 4 years later - my then 10 year old daughter and I did a "roller coaster" trip for her 10th... in the same Vette -- we did every roller coaster on the west coast... When I got home - the nose got painted - and one door fogged - and it needed a new top because the 115 degree weather in Vegas (or maybe the 200 mph :lol: blast from Reno to Vegas) stretched the top and now it had a wrinkle in it... Big deal... she's still reliving that trip.

A big part of my Project Planning conversations focus on putting together a package that can actually be finished within the budget. I tell them if we make a plan, stick to the parts budget and monitor the labor budget, it will happen. Blow any of those and your either going to be in deeper then you wanted to be, or you will not finish!

But to many either go in with no plan, budget reality, or worse make changes along the way as every new trick trinket comes out. Sells a lot of parts for us though!

Your the guys that drinks a beer in front of an alchoholic and expects him not to drink.:unibrow:

Great thread guys. I can relate to pretty much all that has been said, especially about the community that comes with building a PT car. I live right over the other side of the pond ( Australia ) and without the help I have received from fellow Junkies on here, it just wouldn't be the same. Times have been tough for some of late, I hope thing improve for those that are in that situation, I am a bit different from Todd I do enjoy the build process, but I can't wait to hammer the **** out of it when it's done.

Greg

Yeah blame it all on FRANK :thumbsup:

Greg

Wow, what a great thread. Just like all the people on this site. Too early on the build to weigh in with the "total" experience but I thought I'd weigh in anyways. I think the key is to focus on your goal/intentions and not make a quick emotional decision. Sure, build your car with the "emotions" you want but make sure it is really worth it. My story is, I'm not a car nut but I like great cars. My daily drivers have been $100,000 cars that I track and drive hard but they are for me to enjoy how they handle not that I drive an expensive car. I was sick of having something you just wrote a check for and "anyone" can have. There are 2 cars I loved as a child and always wanted....4 headlight Vette and a 69 Camaro. Both I thought of buying and had a check in my hand but when I test drove them I hated the handling. Found this site and "knew" what the solution was. Yes I'm a professional but I also grew up in a small town with a figure it out and just do it attitude. Because my day job takes months/years to see something happen and is exactly opposite of building a house yourself an see what you've accomplished that day (which I've done) or "work on car" (which I really haven't done), my project is a great distraction from working "forever" to accomplish something. Because I've learned from "past mistakes", my goal for the car is quite simple, build it for myself, build it to handle and be fast yet reliable so I can actually drive it, build it to thrash it but not kill myself....in other words....keep it off the track since there is no roof or even windshield frame, build it to be unique for me. Above all, have fun with it and from a money perspective my only goal is to "avoid" mistakes which to me is defined as not paying for things twice or paying for something more than it is worth. While I've always like "fine" things....I've always enjoyed finding good deals and "paying" for what really matters. I wanted to do a lot of the work myself, not to save the money but to have the full experience. I just realized that time it would take, takes me away from other things I love and my plan to get the experience with friends didn't pan out because they are all busy and since I'm a professional I don't really have many "gearhead" friends who could help me do it right. The end result is I wanted to be "part of the build" but leave it up to professionals I trust and like....thus after 18 months of me doing the work (which was defined as very little work and lots of research) Kurt from AutoKraft has the project. The 18 months was great for me to really understand "what it takes", what I really want, and help me from making an emotional buying decision. Now, while I'm not "doing" much of the build myself, I've very involved in sourcing parts, design and when I have a chance I go to AutoKraft where I actually get to "help" them work on it.

My hope is someday, after a few car builds through builders and when I'm retired, I can actually "build" most of a car myself with friends. What I truly think I've found is a "hobby" I can do when I'm retired which is the most exciting. I'm only 42 now and all my other hobbies are athletic in nature or things not best suited for "latter" stages in life.

My advice, make all the decisions that it will really take to build the car when you're really sure you won't regret it with the goal of having fun...which ever way you define it.

I also blame my current build (or thank it) to this website and pro-touring.com (and Frank :lol:) Until I found these sites, my car was going to be a mild build with a sbc crate, leaf spring/ladder bar set up and a few other mods. I came on here and now it's a full pro-touring build that is taking forever to build. I think we should just shut down the websites :D j/k. My goal for the build though has always been to save money for the parts, and then buy the parts. Save again and buy again. I'm lucky enough to have a job that allows me to work overtime to save up for the parts. These cars become an addiction! It's how you deal with that addiction that matters. It sucks to hear about the guys that have to sell their builds for whatever reason and life is way to short to worry about cars. If getting rid of it helps settle things at home..that's the way it has to be. For me, having the car to work on is therapeutic. I get to go into the shop and take my mind off things and just beat on some metal.

What a great thread...

Add one more to the "well my car was going to be a simple driver before I found this site...then it was game over on the budget" :)

Thats what happened with my '69 Camaro. My very first real build....learned a ton...went over budget....have quite a few instances of "if I knew then, what I know now I would have done it different" stuff, but not too bad..... but I still love that car.

On the Cuda, I've taken a big "jump up"....in the budget...in the overall plan.... the amount of fab work etc etc etc. But I've also tried to not set a deadline for myself. I dont want it to take 10 years, but I'm okay with it taking 4-5 years (I'm at 3 right now and a long way off).

The best thing I've probably done is keep the '69 while I do the Cuda.... I still have a fun musclecar I can drive, cruise in, go to shows, tinker with and still drive..... I have that whenever I want and need my "fix". So I'm okay with not having the Cuda finnish real quick.... I still have a cool toy to play with while I build the other bigger and badder toy... I know alot of guys dont have that luxury

I'm also the kind of guy that tends to stick with things once I've started. I dont give up easy and I tend to stick to one path... I dont buy and sell cars or parts constantly.....dont change my daily driver every other year...I live in the same place...keep the same job...go to the same restaurants. Once I find something I like, I tend to keep it forever........

I think just like alot of society in general.... people have short attention spans. They change jobs every couple of years....move to a different city or house....change the daily driver every other year....nothing keeps their interest very long...it always has to be changing.If they dont get it "right now" they lose interest and move on to something else...they change plans...they get blinded by something new and shiney and they lose focus...sell off stuff at 50 cents on the dollar and spend even more $$ on new stuff....

I'm like alot of guys on here.... I do it for fun.... I see it as an investment in ME.....not my car.... I dont do it to sell off as soon as its done...this is my hobby.

My advice....have fun...whether it be a beater of a million dollar car.... this is supposed to be fun. Be realistic with your goal and your budget and dont put an unrealistic deadline on it.