I have to disagree. Not to side track the thread, but your always bitter about cars that happen to have some creature comforts. My car is not cute, my wife is. I love your car but why slag a car with a killer stereo, etc? I love music and cars! Power windows why not... it's pimp and adds a few pounds, whatever? Maybe you should look again at what site your posting on and what defines a Pro Touring car. You don't like shinny paint I do.

Dane, thanks for bringing some good reasoning to the board, excellent points raised. :thumbsup:

cheers....Nige

The hp numbers that I am referring to are not at the wheels. Just motor dyno numbers that most can relate to. 700 to 800 at the wheels is not what I'm talking, I tried to drive a car with 800 at the whheels, lol.

I guess I should have just said I've noticed the cars being built now have more hp and a bigger front tire!

I agree Stuart. It's like having a ton of power WITH the ability to control that power a lot more because of the killer upgrades to suspension, front and rear.

With the recent popularity of pro-touring events like the Motor State Challenge and The Optima shootout, to name just a few, do you think the focus of many in progress builds have changed with the success of these events?

Yeah more power, wider tires, better suspension pieces precisely tuned for that car.

It would be nice if Goodguys started using bigger auto-x tracks.

I'm sorry did I slag your car or anyone elses? Comparing your car to a lexus or an AMG is an insult? I'd think thats the compliment you'd be going for with a build like that. You've added power everything, leather everything, AC. Its a luxury automobile with performance, like an AMG. I apologize if you take this as insult.

My opinion on what a muscle car is and isn't varies from yours, thats all.

To assume I hate shiny paint is silly. I'm not a rat rodder here.:lol:

I think it is safe to say we all want our cars to perform. If that includes the AC system performing on a hot day....so be it. No, I am not going to buy a Prius Dane. :rofl: :rofl:

The parts rolling out to market these days are getting better all the time. And seem to be leaning in the direction of serious street and track performance. But there will always be a big difference between a dedicated track car and the components used to build it and a "traditional" PT car. But the line between them is getting more and more fuzzy every year (from a strictly performance standpoint). Meaning, the PT cars are posting better lap times, higher skid pad numbers, shorter stopping distances. But as they do this they lose the "street" comfort and daily driver ease of use.
So how far do you take it before you turn it into a track car?

We all build our cars for our own purposes, whether it be show queen, cruise night car, or track monster. This thread however is about PT cars that are tracked. Everything I've ever read says that anything with a hoop or cage should not be driven on the street. Unless there are rigid bucket seats with proper harnesses used at all times and proper padding on the cage.

Lots of cars on these forums break that general rule of safety. My own included with its half-assed 5 point belt harnesses and lack of hoop at all. A dedicated track car should have rigid buckets, a full cage, fire system, depending on how 'into' the hobby you may be. A certain trans am on this forum is properly setup for track use, and beyond that! :thumbsup:

Any time I see a street car with reclining seats and a hoop/cage I think of all the advice given to me by track instructors. Recipe for serious injury or worse yet death on the street from a minor fender bender. I'm walking the fine line of swapping out my comfy reclinable recaros for some trans am styled vintage rigid buckets and a proper cage or hoop. I'll use the recaros for the Mini.

Of course this is all advice from the safety nazis. We can all take it or leave it with a grain of salt.

I've left it ages ago, but given all my health issues, I'm considering a full cage, halon system and proper buckets. Last thing I need is an accident to cause me even more pain. Dick Guldstrands eyes went wide open when we started discussing what I do with my own car and laptimes, and the first words out of his mouth were "You need a cage."

I'm very close to pulling the trigger to full time track monster thats street legal. 5 point belts, a cage and buckets on the street SUCK, but for that amount of safety on the track its a sacrifice. You just have to properly pad the cage, and actually USE the belts as intended every time you get in the vehicle. No exceptions.

And hey, nothings wrong with a prius. They good good MPG like the LSX :willy:

k I'm done stewing the pot, I don't want to get punched in the face at el toro if I make it down. :lol:

:rofl: :rofl:

It's all good Dane. Having input from everyone is what this forum is all about right? I know I appreciate everyones input even if it goes against my own opinion. Most of us are very open minded here and appreciate others advice and opinions.
I know I have A LOT to learn and discussions like these offer me a ton of great info.:cheers:

Why yes you always 'try' to insult my car and a lot of the Pro-Touring cars. I don't really care and should not have said anything. It just gets very tiresome again and again with the same rant for years. We get your point you have the more 'muscle of a car', your riding the lightning... we driving wasted, cute, old luxury cars.

Not an insult just incorrect, I do like Lexus's and AMG's and I like lots of cars I'm a total car nut. I'm not going for any compliment of the sort. I'll just give up, my car is not a muscle car- its a old luxury car even though it is nothing like a AMG. Really IMO these old luxury cars ARE your car except nicer.

For the record, from just the one post I disagreed with here are your insults:
(I particularly like the first one... is it from some King of Cool movie?)

Those sir are insults.

Why? Shinny paint its a luxury? I'm sure if I wanted to I could dig up some post insulting what a waste quality paint jobs are on theses old luxury cars.

Indeed, how about a truce? Maybe in the future please don't insult our cute old luxury cars time after time on the site designed to showcase them- a Pro Touring car site.

I lurk here a lot reading threads like this and rarely speak up. Danes been way out on a limb by himself lately so I figure nows a good time to chime in. Just may end up wishing wishing I had a fire suit!

During a conversation with Johnny Hunkins while he was shoting my car for PHR back in '05 he recommended I join the LATERAL-G forum. He explained that this is where guys with cars like mine that were used on track would be. You know.....G machines. He was wrong.... Hardly any of the forum members cars were used on track at that time and although there was always talk about getting cars on track and building cars that would eventually be used on track the reality was that hardly anyone had actually driven their cars (at speed) on a full size road race track. Yes there were a couple but very very few and most of those were owned by companies not individuals. Heck, most of the cars owned by forum members didn't even run! So I wondered, "Where's the LATERAL-G content?"

It's several years later now, and there are more cars being used on track but in comparison to the number of members on the forum the percentage of those who actually use their car on full size tracks is still very small. I stopped inviting people from forums to road track days because no one has ever showed up. In the past 6 years there was only one track day I went to where any other PT/G-machine type cars showed up. I put 2 wheels off twice last year and 4 wheels off once, how many members even had their car on a track? Nevermind pushing the limits! Not very many.


I have to applaud people like Bill Howell for getting more people to take their cars out and actually drive them in some type of event. Without the leadership, time, and money invested by people like Bill we wouldn't have the rising popularity of the events geared toward the PT/G-machine crowd. This is a good thing and I've been hoping it'll get some people to step up and bring their cars out to track days. It would be fun to run with a bunch of 60's and 70's style cars instead of the typical modern cars I run with at track days.

If someone here owns a Prius but has never been on a full size track, take the Prius! You'll learn how to stay on "the line" better, and more quickly than with a huge horsepower car. Danes probably right, a Miata with a good driver could spank most of the car/driver forum members on most road tracks. I'll be the first to admit more than a few passed me when I started! (now only occasionally! LOL) If you take the Prius it'll really get you to want to bring your PT/G-machine out there!

You don't NEED big power, or NEED big brakes, or NEED huge rubber, or NEED less weight, or NEED the latest trick suspension, to get out on track. The simple truth is that a stock ordinary car is better than most people are on track until they get some instruction and track time. Got a sporty daily driver? Take the next 500 bucks you were going to spend on your project car and use it to go to a HPDE event weekend at a road track. You'll have a blast and come away a much better driver!

I rented a 4 dr 4 cylinder Cobalt with an automatic and ran it at Road Atlanta one weekend. I learned a lot driving what would be considered a "momentum" car and by the end of the weekend I could drive almost the whole track with the pedal to the floor lifting only 5 times each lap. And yes they do have a speed limiter, it's at 99 MPH! The next time I took my Firebird I was smoother on the track.

This forum along with similar forums seem to be becoming more and more about what "looks" like a car that can perform on track, rather than cars that are actually going to be used on track. There's more chatter about car shows and stance than track days and what tires work best.

As for the OPs question about vendors changing products because more cars are tracked, it doesn't appear that way to me. To me, it appears like most new products are more for looks than function. When was the last time a wheel manufacturer came out with new wheels and announced the reduced weight or increased strength to enhance performance as selling features? Lots of the billet parts sold weigh more than the stuff they're being used to replace, but they do look cool! LOL (anyone running my billet centercaps can take them off on track. LOL). Since the majority of cars don't get used on track there's really no reason for vendors to sell products that are more track oriented. There's just not many people using parts for those purposes. As long as they "look" like they would be good on track and seem to increase the "seat of the pants" feel, they'll sell.

While I'm on a soapbox talking about track days let me remind everyone that taking a PT G-machine type car to the track regularly costs money. I don't want to deter anyone, but many people don't think about it when they're building their "dream" car. The reality of how much expense is involved sets in quick once you start going to tracks. Sure you know there's an entry fee and ya there's maybe some travel costs involved and possibly a hotel but the little things add up just like when you're doing a project. I kept track of the expenses for a couple years and it averages about a thousand dollars a day for me which included tracks where I drove the car to and from the track while eating/sleeping at home as well as tracks I trailered to, stayed in hotels, and ate out. I know there's folks who will say "I could do it cheaper than that" however I'm just saying, "Thats what it cost me" in additional expenses over a period of time. Pad wear, tire wear, rotor wear, fluid swaps, trailer maintenance, race gas, parking expenses, tolls, and on and on all add up. And I didn't include things like helmets that get outdated or harnesses that get outdated and won't pass tech after a couple years. If you aren't willing to spend a grand a day and also realize you may ball the car up and total it with (probably) no insurance coverage, you shouldn't think about building your car for track use, just build a cool street car and if you go to an entry level event or two it'll be fine. Try to be honest with yourself about what the car is really going to be used for before you get in deep building a car for track use that may never see a track. Cages/bars harnesses etc. are a pain on the street and if you don't really need them for track use they're not worth the hassle and expense. Most entry level HPDEs don't require anything more than a normal car has, other than a helmet. Convertibles require a roll bar.

Auto-X is cool (yes, I've done it). But the short courses seem better suited to little cars without huge power, and again, driver technique trumphs sophisticated cars with inexperienced drivers. If you've got a big power car it needs room to stretch its legs! Take it to a big track!

The original question in this thread was about whether more cars being tracked has changed PT vendors offerings. I don't really see it. If you look at the list of site sponsors on the left you can see what forum members are most likely spending their money on. If there were a lot of track guys here there'd be data aquisition companies, Lap Timers, race car products companies, Fire & Safety equipment companies etc. listed, but its mostly drivetrain, suspension, brakes, appearance, and comfort equipment oriented companies advertising.

Apparently my comments are hitting way too close to home for some, yet I have 6 PMs from members glad I'm saying what I'm saying.

I'm not even going to respond to Monza's post. He apparently has taken my comments very personal, even though I have never once interacted with the guy and I love his car. Pictures of it are even kept in my "Camaro Inspiration" album I keep.

I'll just shut up.

Not A TA

Agreed, no need for a flame suit, great points. When I can't take my PT car to the track and I have a track day I take what ever junk I have around. Normally a Corvair, I used to think it was good on the track ha ha. It is fun however and it is seat time.

More people should track their cars its fun but yes spendy. This is not really a track site more like a cross over, car and track? Pro- Touring does not have to be about the track. Just getting it so it can track is the battle then ya can so you should...then it breaks...

Funny. I have a folder on my laptop with that exact title.

Rogue
You just beat me on the PM count glad I'm saying what I'm saying.You miss my point totally. I have taken nothing personal. Sorry I said shat.

Now I'll just shut up.

I disagree.

Its none of anyone's business to tell 1969 Camaro owners here or on any forum they shouldn't own the car they want. :thumbsup:

While I have to say I walk the middle ground I'll sum it up pretty simply. I had folks from three different churches stop by my house this month.(Man, what the hell!) Cars are no different than religion. We all have different beliefs in what makes for an ideal car. Clearly Dane is the guy that loves to race and you won't catch polishing his wheels on Sunday morning. Dave is the guy that takes everything to the extreme. He polishes on his car on Sunday morning but believes in beating on it to his potential. I respect both of you guys but your not on the same page.

To Not A TA...

John, that's excellent info.

Thanks for taking the time to post it.

Great point Todd.:thumbsup:
See, I'd be somewhere in the middle as well. When I get to the stage where I can build/afford my pro-tour beast, it will have all the goodies, DSE suspension, Rushforth's or iForged wheels, great paint and so on. BUT,....there really aren't many tracks or events out here in the Northeast to auto-x. SO, I will build the car the way that I WANT TO BUILD IT and drive it on the street and to car shows and so forth. AND,...if a chance arises that I get to auto-x it, I will and the car will "be ready" for it. (whether I am or not, is a different story! lolllll...) OH,..and look good doing it as well!!! (the car anyways!):thumbsup: :cheers:

Pete might be able to make you look good as well Tony. Amazing what some paint and bodywork can do.

:lol:

with all those comments wilding out in here...


THAT is why i made The Streetfighters..

I(as politically incorrect) for one mostly agree with Rogue on much of the issue.. BUT.. i love FUEL with all its technological glory to death.
I think the only thing on a car that could be pretty and still the car will be bad ass IS the paintjob.. but thats as far as i go..

thats why Streetfighters are the punkrock of Pro Touring..

the original protouring to me was modern upgrades that make the car PERFORM.. then secondly threw in creature comforts..

when they started doing streetrod interiors and rediculous wheels and just looking the part they are ONE step closer to putting a crybaby doll on the front fender..

...rather than a scratch from a cone.


something that i personally respect more than a trophy at World of wheels for..."Best Protouring"

http://media.photobucket.com/image/r...r/rolleyes.jpg

lollllllllllll.......:thumbsup:
VERY TRUE!! He and Brian will have their hands full.:cheers:

Just went back and re-read this. Very helpful info.

John you word this all better than me. I come across as combative and aggressive and I'm the same way in person. Some people I rub the wrong way I guess. I guess its the competitor in me. I hate seeing all these amazing cars not being driven like they were built for.

I feel the same way at pebble beach and any cruise night as well. All these beautiful cars we rarely see that get polished monthly, rubbed with a diaper, and brought to a cruise night and driven 35mph the entire time.

I just want to see the cars driven, and the smiles of the owners after.

Some people collect, some build, some drive. We're all here for the same thing and I don't intend to offend anyone beyond a little garage ribbing and giving someone a hard time. I do it in person as well, and its not meant to offend.

I too am done inviting pro-touring and latg members to events. I'm real bummed I'm still laid out from surgery right now because I'd like to go down to El Toro just to shake some hands and enjoy the fun. I even asked Dick Guldstrand to drive the car for me, but he is dealing with family health issues. That would have been an absolute hoot.

Pozzi vs. Guldstrand sure would be a hoot for us all. :thumbsup:

The wilwood issues on my car are sorted out today, but I'm not feeling up to driving just quite yet. I'd love to drive down, but I think its just foolish and would likely cause me more harm than good. I need to recover.

Again, hope I don't offend anyone by my opinions, and I know I can come across as an asshole. I can do so in person as well, but I always have a smile on my face and its all in good fun.

Just ribbing amongst car folks.

I have an idea, you can polish my car while I drive yours. Deal!? :lol:

One of these days I need to buy some wax. I don't own any :rofl:

You'll be happy to know I like to drive mine.

When we meet I'll bring you some wax... I have all kinds.:rolleyes: Todd was right. My pre track schedule on host check every thing, off host- wash it- beat the piss out of it- wrench or wash depends on the beating.

"HP is high because the owners are compromising for a lack of driver talent"'...
Or just maybe HP is high because we are hp junkies. I love torque. Evan at the sacrifice of not being as drivable on the track, I get a big grin when a car pulls like a freight train. But for some weird reason you feel the need to say it is because we have no talent. My friend Stielow is building a high hp Camaro.. I'm sure it is because of his lack of driver talent.

You do realize I included myself in that comment as "lack of driver talent"? I too get a big grin at torque. Any fool with a lot of horsepower can unleash fury on the straights, but to maintain that speed through the turns and keep your momentum up is a totally different ball of wax. The "point and shoot" driving styles we see at good guys autox events are indicative of that reliance on power, and lack of driver skill. I AM GUILTY OF THIS MYSELF.

Watch mary pozzi rip up the autox for proper driving. Woman is smoooth.



If any of you are feeling personally attacked by me, thats not my intention and I haven't mentioned a single car or person. But apparently my comments hit some real soft spots for some of you.

it's the "blanket" statements that people are reacting to. Things like

"HP has nothing to do with being fast."
"HP is high because the owners are compromising for a lack of driver talent."

Then you throw a couple jabs in like this:

"I think some people should have bought an AMG SL55 instead of a 1969 camaro though on these forums.

A refined muscle car is cute, I'd like one for my girlfriend."

I know you were just kidding, but sometimes on these message boards the typed word doesn't come out the same as if you were talking directly. I get what you're saying and agree with most all of it, but I also see why the responses are coming in............. :D

Jody

Xactly. There is alot more fun driving situations that with alot of torque are super fun, than just at the track. Higher hp is definately happening, and alows for more fun when u want it. 10" tire up front has also been great. Mark's car will kick some serios butt, and not only because he can drive.

That is a very condescending statement.

I love you, here is a flower :lol:

People also seem to be forgetting they are in a TRACK thread. Where comments such as:

"HP has nothing to do with being fast."
"HP is high because the owners are compromising for a lack of driver talent."

Actually apply. In track situations both of those comments are true at every track day across the nation. If people are offended by them, its because they've never hit the track and if they have, never had any instruction. Those are instructors words, not mine. I'm just repeating what I've been taught and seen to be true AT THE TRACK.

The AMG comment and the girlfriend were clearly jokes. :thumbsup:

so hp has nothing to do with being fast......................... :D on an autocross I'd agree, but on a road course with equal drivers and cars, the guy with more power will definitely have an advantage. I understand what you're saying, the driver is the biggest issue, and a good driver can go fast in anything. However, to say hp has no influence in how fast he is, the same driver in a 350 hp 69 Camaro and a 600 hp 69 Camaro is going to turn better lap times with more power on anything with room to run.

Not to beat a dead horse, but here's an example. Don't mean to drag Mark into this, but since we're friends and I've ridden with him on road courses, I'm gonna drag him in anyway. If HP has nothing to do with being faster why is he building an 800 hp Camaro, instead of the much cheaper stock LS7 500 hp car he's done before? Because he wants to win, and he knows the extra power WILL be faster on a road course................ ;)


With that, since it's so far off thread I'm going to close this.

Jody