Very well put Stuart!

Exactly...in our business (semiconductor design and mfg) we were recently burned by a piece of design content that came along with another company that we bought...the problem was contained within a library of design files for the chip which was done by others (was subcontracted, probably to the lowest bidder)...The design was not well executed and full of bugs which cost our company a huge amount of time and money to fix, pissed off customers, etc.

There will always be people out there who are going to cut corners in order to take the business away from the other more capable companies based on price.

Caveat Emptor, indeed.

Everybody has an idea of what quality is. It is hard to critique a build unless you know exactly went down between owner and shop in regards to the build and money spent. Yeah, everybody is going to scream quality shouldn't be dependent on money but it is or at least it should be. Quality takes time and hours which translates into money.

In regards to bondo use, when you are applying it you always need more to get the car level and when you are stripping a car you always say they used too much. With the cost of repairs the amount used should go down. There was a famous $1mil plus car damaged that had a 1" think bondo chunk missing. I would say the quality there is questionable but if I found the same on a quick $1500 job?? what are you going to say as not everybody has deep pockets or the desire to have that quality.

The internet is full of so called Pro's showing their work on sites that is just beyond backyard bad and there are 20 -100 replies saying how great the work looks just because the shop is the site favorite. It is on here and everywhere else. One has to sit back and see who is making the comments and determine if they are on the same page as you in regards to quality. Do they actually have finished cars? Do you see their cars at shows doing well? Problem is guys take this info and think it is the correct way to do repairs.

There are plenty of very quite small shops delivering serious quality. Don't shop for cars or shops on the Internet. Go to shows or cruise nights and spot some cars that you feel are quality and ask where they were done. You will wind up with what YOU want.

Brian, you have some good points. To often people are quick to give positive feedback based on a photo. We all know you can make a turd look good in the right lighting. You also have your know it alls that don't even have a car or experience with that part or process. I like to pick and choose the people I trust and rely on them for advice. I've got to the point now where I call people out if I feel it's the wrong advice. These forums are really encyclopedias for future car nuts to find on google. We're all guilty of putting out some bad advice here and there but we need to try and keep our flappers shut if it's hear say.

Well Well Randy,

Nice of you to open your mouth with out even calling me? In my opinion I would call the shop or customer first before going public.

1st: Why don't you man up and instead of calling it a shop in Chatsworth call it Bent Custom and Performance.

2nd: This car was a headache from day one. I was sub-contracted and was always put in a rush !!! (There was never a clear picture from day one and I always asked what are the plans for this car? ) Considering the backhalf was done a year before the front half and that wasn't on my watch.

3rd: Do not point fingers either ( I have never touched spray foam in my life) That was the paint shop who ground down the metal to much because they don't know how or what the fu$@ they are doing!!! I wasn't the one who did any final assembly and God knows the monkeys that put it together had any clue what they were doing."there was about 5 gallons of mud to shape the engine bay" If I'm not mistaken before the cars engine bay was started I think there was the same amount of bondo in it when YOU did the job. So don't go calling the kettle black.

4th: "when car traveled down the shocks would bind on the housing in fact just from trailering the camaro the shock adjusters were worn away, The top and bottom bolts were mount 90 degrees from each other and when the traveled the shock rods would bend, He also messed up the axle seals." There you go again. As for the shock adjusters The paint shop fu## those up because they never assembled the car properly or asked for any help !! Plus they wanted the car to sit lower than the way it was designed. Mater of fact since they screwed those up I even bought new shock nuts (Funny there still sitting in my shop).

5th: "He clearance for the wipers but they hit and would not work." There were a few conversations about this? If we can make them work great if not then at least get them on and we will finish it up after SEMA. And if any of you guys on hear know windshield wiper systems aren't easy to figure out when there custom. Especially when the contractor tells you to put the Hydroboost and master at a 90 degree under the dash (Which in my opinion was stupid,but I was just doing my job). Also put all the electronics,new Vintage air, all the coil packs, and a manually operated throttle cable. O' don't let me forget to remind everyone. This was a 4 week job that should have been a 6 to 12 month job.

6th: "The firewall had holes into the interior so his fix was to fill them with foam spray but that still had some leaks" Are you refurring to "his fix" as me ? Because his is not me. I don't have that kind of mentality. Sorry but there you go pointing fingers in the wrong direction again.

7th: "the best part was the hood would not close since he made a custom radiator cover and it was a little to high and hit the hood." Well if you look at the origanal metal pic in Hot Rod and the final paint pic they are different. May...be.. the painter cut and fudged it then slapped on a ton of bondo painted it and called it a day. Pointing fingers again

8th: I could stand here and defend my self all day. But what good is that going to do? I'm just stating the facts. I have pics to prove it all day.

9th: It's a shame that Randy had to post this up when he dam well knows how all this came about. [COLOR="red"][COLOR="Black"][B]Some one else was calling the shots not me !!! The given amount of time that I had to do all this would make most of you go insane or tell the person to go some where else. There were alot of unfinished aspects of this car that never got finalized or were covered up by people that are'nt professinal or understand what the were doing.

There are a few of you guys on here that know me and have met me in person. I even have done work for you or are currently doing work for you. I think I can vogue for all of you that I'm not the person or builder that Randy is pointing fingers at or accusing me of wrong doing.



Mark

Not cool.
That's what I said
So tell me? Do those peaces and wheal tubs look like crap? Not to many people take pics of raw metal and post.


Everyone starts out small. Some stay that way others have talented workers.

Perfect !!

My doors are always open.

Some good ideas in this post, I just wanted to add to what you saying.

Just because it is at the show and looking good does not mean it does not have a 10 gallons of mud. I think you need to see a guys metal work. You need to go TO THE SHOP, Don't talk to some one on the phone and see what they post. You can tell alot through this but it does not show the whole story. I love the shops that post pics of some crazy metal mod and it goes from being tacked up and barely cobbled together. To complete bodywork with primer and looks like it is prepped for paint. If I had a shop chop the top on my car and I went in and never saw the car in bare metal, I would know something is wrong. There are more shops out there that sculpt bondo then fill small highs and lows. Every car will use filler, just not something more then a 1/16th to maybe an 1/8th. MAYBE.....

Just cuz a guy finishes alot of cars does not make them talented. It just means he builds alot of junk. Some guys only do one aspect of the build. So guys just paint cars, Some guys just assemble cars, Most guys do light fab work and paint the car and reassemble. So shops are just general contractors and haul the car all over to have other shops do all the work, then they reassemble the car and take all the credit. That happens to us all the time. We are a fab shop, We can turn key a car, But 95% of our work is pushed in and pushed out to just to certain segments of a build, Chassis, and body fab.

The Last issue I see is this website, Lat-g in General. There are some very nice well put together cars on this site. People have paid alot of money to put some of these cars together. The MR Average Joe gets on here and sees things Way above average results and has no clue how much time or Talent it takes to build some of the things posted on this site. You cannot get a top notch paint job for 8 grand. You can not get a full custom tube chassis for 18k. You cannot have some one build you a crazy top notch, bad ass, Top Quality Camaro for less then 125. Sure you can put a car togther for less and it can be COOL. But Cool and Quality are totally Different. And to have both Cost even more money. These hand fabbed top notch quality cars cost a lot for a Reason.

I have gone an looked a few hack jobs that have been on this site that the customer wanted me to fix. I asked them how much they paid and told them I thought they got what they paid for. They were not happy, because the work did not look like what they see on here, but It also did not cost 1/2 of the price.

You get what you pay for. Unless you do not do your homework.

Todd, I think you are a good example of a guy who learned his lesson on your engine and went to a guy for your 2nd engine that was not the lowest bidder I'm sure. And really at the end of the day, it is alot of the same parts, Meaning a big block is a Big block, yeah yeah I know, not quite, but bare with me. But the way this new one runs and the operates is miles different from the old one, let alone the assemble and parts selection and just overall knowledge.

I use the example of My moms cooking, You don't know your mom is a bad cook when your a little kid, until you eat somewhere else and have something to compare it to. Somethings you just take for granted until you find out you did not have all the info. OR you just never learn.

Even when I was a little kid I knew my mom's cooking sucked! I didn't have to go elsewhere to figure that out. When you need a spoon to eat your eggs, something ain't right. :lol:

That Mustang breaking in half is just rottenous to the core. From my own experience and what I've seen, I don't think it matters how much you spend or how big or little the shop is. You just have to research that particular builder and see their work in person and talk with that builder's customers. That's about the best you can do. Or, try to do it yourself and live with your own work.

I think Stuart summed up the way I feel..... this kind of stuff happens in EVERY business out there....and it always will.......

Happens in my job all the time....... we see a pet, provide an estimate for whats needed...... the owner declines, and takes it somewhere else based solely on $$.....I've even had people get on the cell phone right in the room and start calling around for a better price :).... then they try and negotiate with me. Not going to happen... I've also had to "fix" other vets crappy work.... I've seen some real disasters. I've seen pet die after taking it somewhere cheaper...pets that I KNOW I could have saved......

Sometimes clients will pressure you with time or ask you to cut corners or keep the cost down dramatically. As a business owner, sometimes you have to just say NO..... the end result will be a reflection of your work no matter what. Others looking at the car wont know that the owner wanted you do do $10k of work with a $2k budget in record time. Sometimes you have to walk away and say "no thanks". I try to work some aspects of the cost, but I draw the line and say....."I wont do that....if thats what you want, you need to take the pet and the record and find another vet". The ones that I've cut corners on ALWAYS end up being the worst situations..... things dont go well and the owners gets pissed.....not my fault, but guess who get left holding the bag? The owners arent going to go and tell their friends that the reason the dog died was because they were so frickin cheap and would let me do what was really needed.... they are going to tell their friends that it died at our hospital under my care.......

I'm also the first to admit that I got suckered into going with a lower bid for some work on my Cuda. I contacted alot of shops and got prices all over the place. I found a guy that talked a good game and was working on another members car...his price was good (better than most of the guys I contacted), so I went with him.....HUGE MISTAKE....his work was terrible and I ended up paying 2x as much just to undo his work and start from scratch on several aspects of the car. I regret that decision more than you will ever know....especially since I did exactly what I rip some of my client for.... I focused more on the final $$ rather than the value of the $$. For that I beat myself up over and over.... I learned my lesson and wont make that mistake again. Thats not say I wont try to keep my budget under control, but I'm not going to let the $$ be the biggest factor again. He did **** work but ultimately I have no one to blame but myself.

But high $$ doesnt always mean high value.... thats where the consumer has to do their homework.

I would also like to comment on BentFab...... I just met Mark at his shop a couple of weeks ago and was more than impressed on the work he had going on in the shop. 2 of the 3 project he had were in bare metal and everything was pristine......very nice CRAFTSMENSHIP.... I was very impressed and would have no doubts about letting him work on my cars. I have no doubt that any shortcuts made on the project mentioned above, have alot more "backstory" than meets the eye... I highly doubt that they were ther result of Marks decisions.

The issue also comes into play when there is more than one shop doing the work. One shop may do fantastic metal work and then the paint shop does a crappy job...so the first shop gets dragged into the "that car is a POS"

Ned,

Thank you very much !!! That means alot me.

That Mustang is Disgusting !!!

I wish these hacks mothers would have done our hobby a favor and sent their sons to baking school.

Well mark you justed opened your mouth I did not point the finger at you. You justed pointed it at yourself. Yes I had bondo in my engine bay but i paid you lots of cash to build me one without bondo that's the difference my cost was 50.00 and your cost was 35,000.00. I just refered to chatsworth you filled in the blank. Mark the shocks are mounted up over the axle They hit and thats that now knowing you had this problem early on this should have addressed before the paint shop, The paint shop did not build the mounts. The radiator pan hits on two spots were there was no bondo. Just to let you know I have more pics to.

I'd definitely agree Rodger. To my defense, at that point I had no intention of racing the car. (Back in 2006ish)He definitely was ultra competitive price wise but had a good reputation when I plunked down the money. That's about the time the place went to crap. You are absolutely correct, the difference between my current builder Jason Pettis and the old yahoo is in two different galaxies. The performance...:D :D Jason is definitely not even close to the cheapest, but he's very reasonable in my book. The dude is just a genious when it comes to engines and machine work. His knowledge is priceless. If I wanted a chassis built, I'd call you. For aftermarket suspension, I'll call DSE. For restoration and parts, I'll call my boy Frank. Wheels is Forgeline. Interior and stereo is Findlay Customs. Transmissions it Classic Chevy . None are the cheapest but I know exactly what I'm paying for, Quality.

Thanks Todd. I think it should be a requirement to build a small project for people before they bit off those big ass all encompassing high end projects. Alot of people have no clue exactly how deep they are getting in, or what they really think they want. You can tell a guy something is going to cost a million dollars but until it get over half way do they start to understand that it may cost a million bucks. Just cause somebody thinks it should cost less does not mean it does.

I guess I was lucky, when I saw Karma the first time it came back to Tony, I knew then I wasn't sending my car down there.
I was lucky also to have met Tim Bruning and get my project going over at his place. He is a true craftsman and loves cars, and is resonably priced.

[QUOTE=1984 camaro;282491]Well mark you justed opened your mouth I did not point the finger at you. You justed pointed it at yourself. Yes I had bondo in my engine bay but i paid you lots of cash to build me one without bondo that's the difference my cost was 50.00 and your cost was 35,000.00. I just refered to chatsworth you filled in the blank. Mark the shocks are mounted up over the axle They hit and thats that now knowing you had this problem early on this should have addressed before the paint shop, The paint shop did not build the mounts. The radiator pan hits on two spots were there was no bondo.

[QUOTE=1984 camaro;282491]Well mark you justed opened your mouth I did not point the finger at you.

Then where was your finger pointing ?

Mark the shocks are mounted up over the axle They hit and thats that now knowing you had this problem early on this should have addressed before the paint shop,

Look at the pics before the paint shop got it. Dose'nt look like it was hitting to me? Also I would be hard pressed to say that any of this work looks like sh@@ to me.

Let' not forget I back halfed this car and minni tubbed it when it was painted. You ask anyone how easy that is. You can post all the pics you want and say anything till your heart is content, but I was never the general contractor for this build. The final product and how it was finished had nothing to do with me or how it was exacuted. I just did what I could do in the amount of time that was given especialy with the daily changes during the build.

Mark

The shop in chatsworth said the painter messed up the engine bay I will say the painter took a turd and polished to something good, He and the general contractor called me and said the metal work was poor but the damage was done so the painter done his best to cover it up. To the sub contractor keep it up I have very many juicy pictures and I plan on enjoying posting them up for the next few weeks. You were told by the general to call me but you did not just to show you don't care about your work. The general also warned you that pics will be posted so you that shop in chatsworth had your chance. To your response about manning up and calling you that's not my job I called the general which is what I am supposed to do. The general on this project was great to work with and I would again and same goes to the other sub the painter

[QUOTE=bentfab;282527][QUOTE=1984 camaro;282491]Well mark you justed opened your mouth I did not point the finger at you. You justed pointed it at yourself. Yes I had bondo in my engine bay but i paid you lots of cash to build me one without bondo that's the difference my cost was 50.00 and your cost was 35,000.00. I just refered to chatsworth you filled in the blank. Mark the shocks are mounted up over the axle They hit and thats that now knowing you had this problem early on this should have addressed before the paint shop, The paint shop did not build the mounts. The radiator pan hits on two spots were there was no bondo.

Look at the first picture you can see the shock angels forward, the top bolt of the shock is over the Axel. the spring hits hard against the Axel. the housing has a grove worn in it. On the second picture you can see the adjuster under the tape it is almost against the axle. As the Axel move up the space gets tighter an tighter. Take a look at the lower control arm which swings at a arch as the Axel moves up it also moves back.Thank you for the pictures

Cris... WOW thats just #@*! up. Im assuming since you posted this thread your being asked to fix this? We all know it costs twice as much to fix somebody else's mistake in any business. Man thats just a sad site to see. Lot's of posts on bad builder reps out there but the blame also has to be in big part of the customer for not doing his research, buying something or having something done with no build docs. If the customer is not knowledgeable to know what he's buying he should find help from someone that does. Personally I would never buy any car on line unless I physically can view it or have a shop I know do it for me.

Bingo, if you can't lay your eyes on it personally or you're not capable, find somebody that can inspcet the car. Please.....:yes: Let me throw this out for you guys. Some of these sellers are just as niave as the buyers. They are to damn ingorant to figure out what they have. Sometimes I wish I had a little of that. haha

[QUOTE=1984 camaro;282532][QUOTE=bentfab;282527]The fab work looks really nice to me, especially the frame and tubs.. Issues like shocks hitting the axle and windshield wiper linkage are small stuff IMO, that at the shop Im at, the customer would just bring it back and we fix that stuff. There are a million small issues that come up with custom work, its how the shop handles fixing those issues that are important. Especially if someone is rushed to make a show and doesn't have time to realize something rubs at a certain ride height, just have him move the mounts and fix your parts.. its not an airplane that's going to crash, its a custom car, shops deserve a little room for mistakes, that are within reason.. no offense to you Im just defending what looks like some good work to me from a shop standpoint, with some reasonable flaws from being rushed...?

my uncle bought a 69 camaro convert off ebay, that was described as "very rusty, but savable" and when it showed up on the car hauler, it was broken in half just like that mustang. There were about 5 people there when it showed up and it was the rustiest camaro any of us had ever seen, the frame rails in the back were rusted off and the leaf springs had nothing to bolt to and were just sticking up in the trunk, it was impressively rusty. The guy we got it from said I told you it was rusty! but relisted it and sold it again and let us off the hook...

I have to say -- I've been to BENT FAB -- And I'd send my stuff there in half a nano second. I'm thinking there's a whole lot more to this unhappy ending than meets the eye.... 'cause the work I saw was top notch. And I do know the difference.

I bought 3 or 4 cars on Ebay -- every one of them was CRAP when they arrived. Thankfully I can toss the keys to a dealer buddy and he just makes them go away. I bought "from on line photos" a 70 Chevelle from a Canadian company with their own TV show - it was such crap when it arrived that I got my attorney involved and had to threaten them with INTERNATIONAL FRAUD... they took the Chevelle back and refunded my money. I've learned my lesson - no on line BS for me -- iGo - iSee - iTouch - iDrive... (hope Apple doesn't come after me.. LOL)

Just went down to pick up a little 32 Ford Roadster a buddy found on Ebay - I told him - DO NOT BUY OFF EBAY -- If the seller is a good guy - tell him we're on our way - with trailer - and cash - if it's as nice as it looks - you'll buy. We brought it home. A steal and a GREAT car. It has some very minor issues that are all fixed and total cost of the repairs was $300...

Better than nice,it looks most impressive indeed...:yes:

Nobody's going to win that battle online. Clearly the whole story isn't going to be available to any of us. You guys should really pick up the phone or cuss at eachother via email until you have nothing left to say. This is only going to tarnish your reputation to the casual on looker. I'd personally ask for the backspace button.

gives me something to read in between welding!:P

To All:

This is a really good thread, and I think many can learn from it.

Are their any venders, that restore, paint, sell parts etc. that advertise on Lateral-g or Pro-Touring.com that are jerks, liars, or cheaters?

Having a list of Good Qualified list of people to do business with would be a great way for people to help not get screwed, before they get butt deep into a major headache.

Is there ANYONE who you would not trust to do a large project, and why? I know more than likely, if someone was a crook, they would probably be thrown off the websites.

If they are allowed to advertise on these site, is that a good indicator, the people are probably on the up and up, whether it be parts or services?

I would appreciate some feedback from people about this.

<In fact I will start a New Thread>

If nothing else, who have you had do work, or supply parts, and had good luck with?

Thanks,

Ty

I learned one thing from this thread, DO YOUR RESEARCH !!! .I think its that simple..

Well said Rodger! This should be a mandatory message all members must read before posting on this site.

Ty.. Scott has a good list of vendors here I do everything I can to call them first. I judge a vendor on how they handle a situation when something goes wrong. All to many times people use this forum to call someone out only to find out they never tried to resolve it with the vendor in the first place!Look at what happen with Mark Bent .I can't imagine that Mark would do something like this given his reputation on this site. So what happens. The owner calls Mark out. Did he try to resolve this with Mark face to face.?Because if I spent $50,000.00 on anything Im going to pay someone a visit. I would be willing to bet this did'nt happen.. Because if it did we would'nt be reading about it on this forum ,Mark would of done right by this member no question. I have NEVER been screwed by a REPUTABLE vendor. Do your home work!! :soapbox:Now back to Chris sorry

This is why alot of other forums have "Buyer / Seller Ratings " section .A forum to talk about your buying & selling experiences with other forum individuals,vendors,shops,e.t.c.

I'm sure it can drag some sponsors and vendors in mud once in a while,so it may not work out so well for the site, but it would be nice to see honest reviews

The problem is you will never know one way or another who is really telling the truth. There are 3 sides to every story, Customer side, Vendor side and what really happened. The only way a vendor rating would work is if you have a customer rating also. There are just as many crooked customers as crooked vendors. The only way to really know is to do you home work and be involved with the project.

I went to look at the tubs in 08 when i got to chatsworth the rear Axel was out and the tubs were being painted. The tubs are not the problem the shock mounts are. Just looking at the job it looked good. So mark got paid 15,000and all was good. The binding was not seen until the car came home. Now the engine bay per phone with nelson and mark he was to keep it under 15,000 give me weekly invoices and dollars spent. But he did not follow through my first invoice came 4 weeks later And yes again I went to chatsworth to look at the car the engine bay was fresh paint and looked good, But I was told the work was rough. So mark was paid. The cracking stated at sema and buy the time the car got home there was about half a dozen cracks. I did my home work The F-Bomb that mark worked on looked good and hot rod said mark was good. The stainless work mark done was very good plus the tubs were done a year before so I have seen them before the starting of the engine bay. No I did not talk to mark since I was over charged his comments were that he does not run a charity shop. Mark had the windshield removed from the car and it was broken I did not know this until the day before sema, Mark sent a bill for a replacement windshield I told him I will not pay for that. I got a nasty letter back from mark about me as a customer, I have this letter and thinking of posting it. So that's when I called tom and asked to talk to mark that this problem needed to be fixed and mark told tom he will call me but he did not. Mark still has that chance and if can settle this He will get a good review. If you note I did not name him

I've also seen your work and have always been impressed.. sending you over Penny for some line work is high up on my list. Still is.

--------------

Shops will always have a mix of super happy customers.. happy customers and unhappy customers. It's just the nature of the gig since everyone has different expectations and desires.

The key to doing business with any shop is to look for one that has a super majority of thier customers in the "happy" catagory.

With real estate it's "location, location, location".. with picking a shop it's "references, references, references"

Never trust the shop to tell you how good they are.. trust their OVERALL reputation and thier body of work.

---

NOTE: arguing out business deals online is nearly useless and even pictures don't tell the whole story (either way).. I suggest both parties talk it out or take it to court.

So let's keep this thread on topic or it will shut down like a European airport downwind from a volcano.. ;)

Greg, Bob and myself visited Marks shop right before RTTC....... as I stated before....and Greg confirmed.... the work we saw all in BARE METAL was pretty impressive in my book. The pix you posted.....look pretty damn impressive to me. If thats "turd, crap metal work", then I'd like to see whats considered "good metal work".

I'd also agree that when you do a complete custom set-up, little stuff is gonna come up... like your shocks hitting. Its impossible to engineer and plan everything out 100%. When the big picture is all done, you go back and fix the small stuff. When the builder is given 4 weeks and a huge deadline like SEMA looming over them, this stuff is gonna happen. What did you expect when you force a 6 month build into 4 weeks? I've seen and heard of quite a few cars that get slapped together for SEMA and then get torn apart and stuff is done "right" after the show. If you put yourself int that situation, then the responsibility is yours.

And I also agree.....take this offline....no one is gonna win here.....

No one will win.This needs to be taken care of in private.

100% with Ned and Tracy....

This is a private matter - and really isn't forum material. Chris' original post is the type that should be posted here because its a learning experience for all of us... and no names were mentioned because he was just trying to build awareness.

The other Bent/Camaro discussion which is a thread jack - is just a pissing contest with factual/un-factual statements that go all directions.

don't post it. At this point both sides have had their say, so anything else needs to be taken to pm's.

Thanks.

Jody

Randy I hope you guys can work this out! No sides taken. Mark has been good to use on this forum.Im sure all will be made good. I agree with Greg and Ned .Lets get back to the real issue here.Don't want to see this thread shut down..:cheers: