So.... looking at the HAZ on the fresh weld... it appears to be a series of smallish half inchers... More than a 'tack' but not a complete run either?

Did the welder (as in person not machine) skip and fill or just choose to weld small runs cooling as they went? Or?

We had some discussion about this at dinner but didn't follow up (my A.D.D. probably kicked in).

Honestly, Trying to get it figured out with a MIG is totally different then a TIG. If you scribe tight light to trim and fit you can tack it up with the MIG. But learning how to weld sheetmetal is like trying to learn how to ride a bicycle when you want to ride a unicycyle. Just start now with the tig on 20amps and maybe buy some MIG wire to not build up your welds to much while your learning. The TIG welders out number MIG welders 5-2 in my shop and all my MIG welders are 110 volt except 1. I have 1 220 volt MIG.

Spend your time learning how to trim and fit sheetmetal very tight. Then learn to tack with the TIG.

Thanx for the pictures Roger!! I been avoiding my tig welder but I know its time to pull it out and start learning. It's a Hobart EZ-TIG 165i I figured this would be a simple machine to start with. I have spent more time fitting and it does make a big difference...

Just buy some flat sheet (18gauge) cut some strips and weld it back together. If yo ever want to be the internet superstar Jason (WAR) #9 is, you will have to become one with you TIG. Cut and fit, tack it together, and weld little bits. Weld about aninch and cool it with the Air hose. Weld another inch, then cool it. Repeat this process for about 12-16 inches. Then sand just the weld smooth not the base metal. Maybe use a die grinder wheel to knock the top off.


This thread makes me think we should offer a class or seminar for this skill. It's not hard, but just takes practice and experience. But having some weekend guidance would good.

Don't forget to clamp your work! (even while practicing) Welding is more than just making a pretty little puddle -- it's as important, if not more important, to have the work NOT WARP!

Just for those reading this thread -- take the two strips Rodger suggests -- lay them flat side by side -- then just do a nice tack at one extreme end. Look at the other end - the gap will have grown!

To do this properly -- clamp the crap out of it (both strips) = tack one end - then the other end - then the middle - then split that again. Now the gap won't move on you.... BUT if you unclamped and finished your weld - the piece will warp... so you leave your clamps --- move them as required to work - and keep it clamped to the flat work space. Weld and cool and weld and cool and keep cooling before you unclamp. It will still warp but that's what you'd work out with a hammer and dolly if you're doing this on a body part.

Remember -- every time you melt (heat) the metal - that area GROWS - and that area also SHRINKS as it cools. The one little spot you melted - and then shrunk is going to move differently than all the other larger metal around the weld area. Clamping and controlling your heat is the way you're trying to control the movement as much as possible... but there is also WHERE you choose to place your welds - because HOW and WHERE you weld will also help counteract the movement.

To picture this in your head -- think of welding a "T" --- (I can't make the T upside down but picture it that way). SO make an inside corner weld on one side of the T and the T won't be straight anymore... but if you tacked the two ends and tacked in the middle = Tack one end on one side and the other tack on the end on the OPPOSITE side.. Check for 90* at this point and adjust - tack the middle - check again and adjust... Now weld a bit on ONE SIDE and then your next weld needs to be on the OPPOSITE side. The metal will pull to the side you welded on -- then will pull back to the direction your next weld was on.

It's all kind of hard to explain via these forums but trust me when I tell you - there's more to "welding" than just the bead. :willy:

The other thing amateurs do is they fit up the piece -- then start tacking or whatever. They never pick up a hammer and dolly, or whatever tool they need to use, and ADJUST the piece as they go. They just weld away - then when they're done they wonder why it doesn't look all pretty like the pictures of other guys work. You've got to "work" the metal as you go IF necessary... to keep warpage down - to keep the gap tight - and blah blah blah. It's not just fit once and weld it. This stuff takes some patience and some some eyeball time - and adjustment as you go.

This thread makes me think we should offer a class or seminar for this skill. It's not hard, but just takes practice and experience. But having some weekend guidance would good.
__________________
Roger I would fly out for that in a heart beat!! I think its a great idea!!!And I would'nt care what it cost just to get some hands on training from the pros would be invaluable!!!!!!!!!!!

Greg I've made every mistake you talked about!! :D

Well said Greg. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.

Mario - I'm a total newb at welding, I have a Lincoln SP135 that came set up with .030 wire, I practiced and practiced and seldom produced welds I was satisfied with. I recently switched to .023 wire and have only practiced a couple of times now but I'm kicking myself for not doing it a couple years ago. For practice I've been using some 1/2" x .065 sq tubing welding up small square frames and T's and with the .023 wire I'm actually satisfying myself.......:rofl: (door is wide open Greg)

I picked up some scrape sheet metal and that's my next challenge. No doubt understanding, anticipating, and controlling heat induced shrinkage and contraction is the challenge.

As you mentioned proper fill lighting is critical, I thought the arc itself would be enough, but without proper light my results are embarassing.

Tool acquisition is the other fun part of this endevour! It would be cool if someone would post a sticky that identifies all the basic tubing and sheetmetal tools needed to get started then phase 1, 2, 3 tool needs all the way to the Greg Weld level. :D

I agree with the lighting 100%!!!

Oh and Roger ............ Lets not even talk about #9!!!:D That guy makes me sick:faint:

So true. I know it took me some time under helmet before I started to work the metal as I went -- and I thought I was "cheating", or lacked the skill to cut the metal to fit properly as I went. Now I don't do much welding on outer body panels; my sheet metal welding is relegated to the interior and bottom of the car. So I don't use TIG. It's too hard to get all three hands needed into position when welding up a toe board from inside the car.

I think the reason that working the metal isn't as well-known as it ought to be is that the typical body panel replacement article in magazines doesn't cover it. I've not seen it, and most certainly the notion of MIG tack-welds followed by TIG finish-welding hasn't been covered.

jp

ps. BTW, great thread!

Ok Tomorrow morning and 1 million dollars. I will cover lodging and airfare and food. :D :D :D :D :D

This thread has easily become one of the best I've read. Thank you to all who have contributed, and thank you to Mario for stepping out and asking the first questions. I have learned a lot and can not wait to get back to town Sunday night and start working on this stuff.

So have I buddy -- and it's why I'm trying to share the love here.... there's so much to learn when doing this stuff. You should - like many - be an expert just about the time you do the very last inch of welding on your project.

Most of us don't do this kind of work all day every day - and yet we want our work to look as though we do. It just isn't that simple. BUT it's why we all hang here and try to help each other through.

You mention back lighting to see your work. My statement here is - then your helmet glass is WRONG/too dark. If you're TIG welding the helmet glass is even more important because many times on thin sheet you're just barely using any amps (voltage really).

I have several helmets -- My favorite is my Optrel. It has a large view area - and has many adjustments... and I can really dial it in to my liking. I'm old - wear bi-focals - and I'm old and I wear bi-focals.... :D If I can't see -- then I can't weld.

Can't stress how important that part is. You've got to be able to see before you start - and you have to see every facet while you're welding. If you can't then you'll make poopie. Get an auto darkening helmet and spend some money on a GOOD ONE that is adjustable - otherwise your experience and fun quotient just won't be good.

With TIG you adjust the heat as you go - start high - lowering it as the puddle forms up nicely - and even lower as you finish off. It's like running the gas pedal on the car... so if you can barely see when you're starting out with the max voltage -- you lower it and you won't see diddly. I tend to lay a test bead on some scrap to get the helmet set (since I weld on all manor of stuff so am always messing with the settings) before I ever try to weld on something that counts. It only takes a second or two to start the arc and dial the helmet with the other hand... no need to add fill etc while doing this and the gauge of metal doesn't count either -- I'm just setting the helmet to the voltage I want to use for the real work.

I can tell you this --- I've NEVER EVER been close to the recommended helmet settings for a given weld setting. I'm always FAR less. I don't care what someone else needs --- it's ME that needs to see! :woot:

greg, i really enjoy reading your posts because they are always informative. :thumbsup:

Thanks buddy!

I'm just trying to be helpful with the experiences I have... which isn't diddly compared to the pros here - but they don't really have the time to post up the amount of info that it takes sometimes to help someone along. I've got all day... :>) and I type really fast. And I have a big mouth...
:cheers:

And you're smart! I don't care what Roger says...:lol:

Mario -- I'd do it for a buck....

This is a great thread. Especially for me as I am also trying to learn with the new Tig welder. I have been reading and practicing. Things are going better. I'm a visual person. Here is the result of the best I have done so far. I am far from happy, but mind you I've only burned about 4 filler rods with the TIG so far.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r...n/IMG_4799.jpg

I spent a lot of time fitting the panel I made. It was good, but the second one is better. As usual. I am getting ready to start welding the second one. I have it tacked in. Look along the bottom. I was trying to keep everything fitting as I went using a hammer and dolly. I didn't make a weld longer than 1/2" at a time before cooling. I was also hammering the welds as I went to try and keep the panel from shrinking in. When I was done and started the grinding/sanding I realized the panel I added along the bottom was slightly proud. You can see this in the photo. Any suggestions as to how to work this out? A small amount of filler will cover as it is only about 5-10 thou. proud, but I would like to make it better. The same thing happened with the 2 plug weld spots you can see.

This brings me to my next question. What happens when you are butt welding sheet metal and you can't get to the back side to hammer the welds and work the joint? No matter how slow I go and how small the welds are, I almost always end up with the weld bead/HAZ low. Do you use a stud gun or something to raise that area? I will be getting to these types of welds very soon. That's enough for now. Any comments/advice good and bad will be greatly appreciated.

I don't mind others learning from my mistakes! :lol:

I'm going to let better body men than I answer these questions -- but I would say on the area being "proud" (high) after hammer welding is because you stretched the panel too much. You don't have to pound the weld perfectly flat to save yourself a lot of work with the grinder. 3 pounds of shizzaz in a 1 pound can. When you're fit up is really tight - you weld - you hammer flat - the metal that is hammered flat is going to GROW not shrink.

Ever heard of a shrinking hammer? They work if you know how to use 'em.

Hammer and dolly work is a black magic art form... I've seen people take a perfectly good panel and RUIN it because they just think you pick up and hammer and start banging away. They stretch the metal - leave hammer marks all over and then start trying to shrink it when they should have just left it alone! LOL

If you "pull" this area out with a stud gun - you'll then most likely end up with an oil can.

Ever heard of Bondo? Works real well on low areas... don't be afraid to use it. :unibrow: Personally - I'd prefer a low area over a proud one.

Not sure what the right answer is on the "can't get there to work the area"... I'm all for "do my best and skim coat it".

My first job ever was at Gateway Body and Fender... back when we brazed panels on. And we did lead work. My boss was always trying to teach me his art... and a "dent" in his mind was not a dent -- it was stretched metal. His job was to "shrink" the stretched metal back to it's original shape. He'd pick up a dolly and hammer and you could actually watch the metal coming back to the original panel shape in an area he wasn't even hammering on! He's hammering here and the metal over there was coming into shape. He did this with very little effort and just the feel of constantly using his hand on the panel. I never did pick up his gift for this. It's still a mystery to me.

Comments in red below! Thanks Buddy.


Let's see what the other masters have to say!

I just turned 46 ....For some reason it was getting harder and harder to do a good weld . Thought I was going crazy , turns out I just needed a pair of x2 readers(glasses)

I do alot of minor dents with a shrinking hammer ,especially thin newer cars .


.026 mig wire was another big improvement .

Body filler ,I cant say BONDO ..
I just found this Platinum +3 from marson . 3M just bought them still good .
If you use alot of evercoat glaze (green ) bottle the Platinum will save some money . Platinum feathers great ,especally when its thin. 18 bucks a gallon . Evercoat is like 40 for a bottle :willy:
Ever see that Bondo bazzooka from 3M ??:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Just another quick plug for a nice helmet. We bought an Optrel when we bought our tig. I can't stand to use other helmets now.

Also, my Dad struggled with the tig and realized that he needed to be wearing his reading glasses. For the most part, he just let's me do the tig welding, which I'm fine with.......I can use the practice!

I've found that my welding glasses are very useful for reading.

jp

Quick update ..... I made SEVERAL changes. First I spent more time fitting the metal for a tighter fit,big difference!! Then I figured out I had the voltage to low. I turned it up increased the wire speed way better! Kept everthing cool put more light on my work area and readjusted my helmet.Now I'm happy with my final result no swiss cheese,alot stronger weld ,overall a way better finished product!!!! Now I can finally move on... On to the tig....:_paranoid

Great to hear Mario. I'll be making adjustments based on this thread as well. Glad you started it!

Good to hear Mario!

Like most things --- you have to have a kind of "ah ha" moment... then things seem to go much better and the learning curve slopes off a bit and isn't quite so steep.

Don't forget to keep snipping the wire off as you go too. If you want really nice welds/tacks and good hot starts snip it at an angle. It takes less voltage to make the arc start and the wire is CLEAN and not balled up and contaminated.

If you're just working on a floor patch - then you don't have to do that - but if you're trying to be "mister metal" and have work that looks pro then snipping will "help". I also tend to keep my stick out on the short side.

Once you get the timing and heat down - you won't even need your helmet... you'll just hold it a pull the trigger and make a perfect tack. :cheers:

Hey guys, I have kinda been in the market for a new helmet. Anyway, based on your recommendations I looked up Optrel and I like what I see! Quick question, what model are we talkin'? I like the e680 as I can lower the shade a lot lower than my current helmet (9 is the lowest setting). The e670 look nice too with it's auto adjustments. I know on aluminum there is a lot of variation of brightness during the weld process. The price for the e680 is really attractive too!

I am mainly looking at low amp TIG welding as my current helmet "drops out" quite often. Tough to weld when you are seeing spots!

Thanks in advance!

Chris

Chris

Mario these guys are giving you GREAT advice!

Keep practicing! I agree with the start using the TIG thoughts too... Find some material and practice, practice, practice.

Did I miss Rodger answering what rod they use? I have tried using MIG wire as has been mentioned on here. Worked really well, I think next time I am going to cut a 6' section and twist it into a 3' "rod" so I get the melting point of the .030 but the filling of a .060 rod. I find I can get small voids at the edges of the welds if I am not really careful. I haven't practiced too much with the MIG filler yet though so I may continue to practice more before I double up the wire.

Chris

I own an Optrel Satellite.

I'm not familiar with the models you mentioned... so without researching them I couldn't advise on what's right for you. I agree though - that if your helmet only goes to 9 -- fugedaboudit. It needs to go to 5 or so because I do a lot of TIG at 7 and 8. And if you want to be able to weld two beer cans together you might be down at 6! LOL


"9" just isn't low enough. So that would be my "guide" on an autodarkening helmet. I personally love my Optrel - large view space - and I keep several clear covers in my welding inventory and change them whenever they get scratched up etc -- with this helmet it's super easy to do that.

Anyone trying to TIG weld with a one number shield (used for guys that arc welded pipes all day back before I was born. :D ) is going to find it IMPOSSIBLE.

Think of it this way --- The TIG machine was super expensive (relatively) so why would you try to use a cheap azz helmet. One GREAT helmet is able to do ALL your welding needs... so cough up and get one that makes it so you can at least see what the hell you're burning holes in. :rofl:

I forgot I was going to share a little story at my own expense....


I've had the Optrel for maybe 5 years.... picked it up to do some work and the dang thing wouldn't darken... so now I'm looking for a battery to change... can't find anything... so PO'd I head for AirGas... the guys there know me well... and I tuck my helmet under my arm and storm in there...and I'm already frustrated because it's messed up my afternoon (you guys know what I'm talking about here)... and I ask -- "hey guys... where the dang battery in this POS?!"....


Well.... the helmet is SOLAR POWERED... and hadn't seen sunlight since the day I brought it home. Pretty long lasting on "one charge" I'd say. I hadn't used it for a couple months maybe -- and she just finally gave up the ghost. Set it out in the sun for a few hours the next day and bingo.. all good to go.

I didn't ask and haven't researched - but TIG will give you a "sun burn" (ask me how I know?) so maybe if you just TIG enough and frequently enough - that will keep it charged up?

Perfect thanks Greg!

Optrel's site says the e680 replaces the model you have. That is exactly what I am looking for. You are so right about the sun burn. I used to weld cylinder heads quite a bit back in the day and many time my arms would get tanned sometimes a little red. We are talking a couple hours of welding though....

You are also right about 9 being a little dark. It is OK for aluminum but on low amp steel not so much.... I figure I will keep my current helmet for MIG welding and only use the new one for TIG.

Thanks again!

Chris

So a little more digging on the e680 specs and it looks like they added battery backup for the solar cells... I am guessing you were not the only one with this issue. Good to see a company improving their products. I'll have to call Tom over at Airgas to see what they can get me this helmet for.

Chris

I'm a little confused, maybe I missed a post while reading, Greg mentioned to snip the wire at an angle before welding. Now I'm assuming most of these posts are about TIG welding. Are you using MIG wire as your filler when TIG welding?

Hey Jose,

Greg was talking about MIG at the time. They were discussing using MIG for the tack welds and TIG to finish them out. Snipping the wire results in a cleaner weld. Also trimming after each tack ensures you have the correct "stick out" of the wire. The angle cut helps the arc start.

Greg if I missed anything please fill in the blanks...it's early yet.... :rofl:

Chris

I only recommend MIG wire when TIG welding for someone just beginning. It helps you control your heat. And helps with learning to feed the rod quickly. But once you get things going, regular rod is preferable. I remember running out of small rod and one of my really good welders used something like .090 rod to weld 18 gauge and did not have any warpage issues. But he knew how to control is heat. See he is using bigger rod the the material thickness, so it's easier to burn through the sheetmetal then melt the fill rod.

It is all about fit up and putting the least amount of heat in the panel and then learning how to fix what heat you do put in the panel. Once you get the TIG figured out, you will never do sheetmetal work with a MIG unless you have to. Some times you have to use the MIG if you can't get behind a panel.

I'm LOL --- but would ADD to Rodgers post on TIG vs MIG....

Once you learn how to TIG - You'll prefer it for EVERYTHING not just thin sheet metal. :yes: It's just so clean and such a much nicer finish... and is so much more fun to do. MIG welding feels like you're some kind of production worker compared to TIG'n on something. I can't put it in words but it's just a feeling of satisfaction being able to control the weld. Then you stand back and look at that stack of dimes and it is something YOU did.

Having said all that -- I totally understand the reasons for only owning a MIG and there is NOTHING wrong with using it to it's max and becoming skilled in using it.

Give this man an A+ !!

Thanks for the clarification Chris. I've heard about using MIG wire as filler but wasn't sure if I got sidetracked or not.

All In all this is a fun thread but.....there is no way welding and metal finishing sheet metal can be discussed or written about here were you can become proficient at it. There are alot more aspects to it than just welding. Like Rodger keeps stating, FIT UP, first. You have to master this and with what tools to do this. Hammer work, like Greg mentioned, is very important. This alone I have found is probably the most important and will take the longest to learn. Finesse with the tools, where to hit to do different things, what dolly to use,(sometimes you have to make your own tools), what hammer to pick up. When and how to hammer the weld. And of course the welding. I think lots of people have different methods. I don't wear a hood when I tack with the mig and sometimes with the tig. and I don't snip the wire.

Education is never free. You can pay for a class, talk to pro's and do what ever to repay there time for showing you, study GOOD work in bare metal, ask questions. But at the end of the day you still have to put in the time if you want and enjoy doing the work. The price of education.

I am not a pro fabricator by any means but feel the more I do the better I get which was why I started to build my car I the first place. Driving it will just be icing on the cake.

There are quite a few really good people in this industry who are more than willing to share some knowledge, all you have to do is listen and apply it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Maybe some of you can get a shop like Roder's talked into opening up a class on the weekends. I would go for sure.

Well said Jason. :thumbsup: