By the way - just to beat a dead horse...quick google search and this was right on top - dude getting nailed for $10K on this Dodge - actually not a bad deal considering what it could cost.

http://forums.automotive.com/70/4574...ems/index.html

That has to do with the new emissions stuff I believe. My last job we had two 14 passenger church type buses that we would run on his one route that had very few riders. Anyway, the buses lidled for long periods. SES light came on often. Finally the Ford dealership figured the problem out. The solution was to drive the buses more. So the drivers would come in 30 minutes early and drive on the loop around Athens to get everything hot and cleaned out. Problems went away.

This is why I am sticking to pre-emissions diesels so 07 Classic Silverados and older. No emissions BS to deal with.

I haven't seen any mention of the tunability factor that diesels have. Why shouldn't your truck be as fun to drive as your hot rod? There is a HUGE aftermarket for Dodge, GM, and Ford diesel trucks. It's not too difficult to increase power & torque 25% - 50% and more with readily available tuning boxes. That power should come with some additional supporting modifications to the fuel system and transmission, but big power comes relatively cheap with newer diesel trucks.

For reliability, most of the weak spots in diesel trucks have been found and can be easily addressed. Poor fuel filtration damaging expensive high pressure fuel injection systems was mentioned. This is a pretty easy fix with aftermarket pumps and filters. Do your homework and you can get a fast, fun, and reliable diesel truck.

Good points Todd -- Diesels were not meant to be your daily commuter truck 5 miles one way to work... They want to do "work".

I've only had ONE issue with my Ford 6.0L (a computer that died a month ago - replaced in a couple hours and $1200) -- which everyone says is a POS.... and the reason for that, I BELIEVE, is because the 85K miles on it are almost all hiway and towing... and I have the Banks system which also includes the brake controller (like a jake brake). The truck gets used and used hard -- I give it no breaks (or brakes either!) going up or down the hills... and because of this - I think the exhaust gets burned clean - which keeps the injectors clean - and I have it serviced religiously! I don't want problems when I'm on the road... so I'm very pro-active with the services. I use AMSOIL synthetic diesel oil and I change it every 3000 miles -- and I use a Pure Power cleanable screen SS mesh filter.

BTW -- 85K --- and never changed the PADS on the brakes! Thanks to the Banks Brake! I rarely use the brakes... I'm telling ya - they have that down pat! Since I typically haul long distance - the miles add up without touching the brakes. If I was doing stop and go - I'd be on a the second set of pads and probably a rotor change. I've had the tranny fluid changed at least twice - with flushes - and ditto the radiator... flushed and new coolant. Belts have been changed and I had the radiator hoses changed at 75K.

I did have the entire front suspension rebuilt... again --- being pro active. I thought it was getting a little sloppy so just had them replace everything. It was 3 grand - but I want my steering up to snuff --- and I don't want to find out it's not, while I'm in a corner with a trailer pushing my butt around!

The only other thing I've learned is to periodically change the turbo pressure side hose (from the turbo to the intake)... it gets saturated with oil and will blow off just about the time you're really putting the boots to it... and putting that on while leaning over a hot motor SUCKS! So I now just change it out and use the good silicone turbo hose. I even discussed this personally with Gale Banks at this years Grand Nat show when I met him at the NHRA musem, and he told me they have seen the same issue... the hose just gets hot oil blown into it until it is "gone".

Sorry. Can't just trust you on this. For every example you bring up where somebody is having a problem there are thousands of trucks out there running hundreds of thousands of miles. Let me be more clear.

I own a 230k mile normally maintained '04 Cummins Dodge. The only driveline repair is - a water pump. Cost me $59, replaced it myself, not including going ahead and changing rad hoses and serpentine belt.

Most of my truck driving friends have either Dmaxes or Cummins. Sure, there are issues once in a while. Let me tell you sometime about my 5.3 Silverado issues sometime. Now THAT will make you cringe. For the most part, nothing out of the ordinary.

The Cummins is the heaviest built, stoutest diesel in the light truck fleet (meaning anything 1 1/4 ton or less, non-commercial). Note I didn't say the "best", as that's a different definition depending on your perspective. The Dmaxes are far easier to modify and can run like banshees. However, how about in your "research" you take a hard look at all the Cummins out there with over 300k, 400k, even 500k miles on them. Then talk to me about the "serious issues that neither Ford nor Chevy have". In your research, put a rod from a Cummins next to a rod from a pstroke or dmax. Hell, put it next to one of each. It's massive.

Here's a secret. Many of the issues that "diesels have" are around 3 different areas.

1) Guys using Biodiesel, especially without modifying their filtration systems. Asking for trouble.

2) Guys really beefing up the diesels with all kinds of modifications - ESPECIALLY those that can affect injector performance, such as increasing rail pressure, etc. A prime cause of injector failure is improper atomization, ie, air, at the tips. This is often the result of either modifying rail pressure and/or improper filtration. If you're gonna mess with rail pressure, YOU HAVE TO UPGRADE YOUR FUEL FILTRATION AND PUMP SITUATION!

3) New emissions crap. Urea. All kinds of crap. BTW, GM is absolutely having issues as well right now with their dmax due to this.

So, no, I can't "just trust you on this". Maybe after I put ANOTHER 230k miles on my '04 we can talk. Pulling 8000-9000 lbs getting an average of 17mpg fully loaded. On cruise, with the air on. At 70-75mph. Uphill. In the summer. With 4 adults in the cab. That pretty much paints the picture. At what I paid for the truck used, and what I've already saved, I can buy another 5.9HO CR engine and drop it in and still probably be about $5k ahead of the game.

Buddy of mine has a brand new dmax chevy. He's been told something similar from gm. It is emission related. But it wasn't that he had to drive 55mph, just that he had to drive it to get the EGTs up enough and then use it for an hour or so once every 2-3 weeks.

Bottom line on all these trucks (and cars too!) is you have to take care of them for them to be able to take care of you. All brands are good these days. I steadfastly refuse to say one is better than the other... they've all had issues and they've all had good engineering working on fixes. I had two Cummins Turbos in my boat - and they never failed me and if you want to work a diesel hard - put it in a 25 ton boat and run 'em at 2200 RPM for hours on end. That's max torque output spinning 28" 4 blade wheels... In a boat - there is no "coasting" like you do in a car/truck.

Just change your filters - and oil - and run 'em hard. Diesels do not like being coked up.

Do they make "real" trucks that aren't diesel? Go diesel for sure! In my opinion the Dmax is best all around, Cummins best for all out towing, and the Powerstrokes will do the job especially when modified a little bit. There is a ton of aftermarket goodies for all of them.

Yep, Jeff's is a late 07 and that's when it started according to him. He also mentioned the fluid for GM I believe.

Just to add lots of fuel to the fire....
http://www.chevrolet.com/hd-to-hd-truck-comparison/

I don't see how anything can be better than the cummins. Been driving an 05 3500 6 speed and the damn thing gets 23mpg city. I haven't filled the damn thing up in weeks but I can't say the same for my lifted F250.. And the 6.0 isn't so bad, mine has minor egr issues but overall it's been very trouble free. Not to mention it's funny as **** launching on corvettes and stuff. Hell with the programmer on the Dodge it gives them a run for their money to the top end. If I floor it in 4th at about 45mph it will spin the tires.

I love my 6.0, I just wish the gas mileage wasn't so terrible or it would be the perfect truck. Yeah the interior of the dodge kinda sucks but when you are knocking down high 20's highway with towing gears, you can't really bitch. Not to mention it's just as fast as any sports car on the road. I'd say it's comparable to my 99 WS6.

No worries - please understand I am not condemning all diesel trucks - nor suggesting that you will all have problems.

Please see what I am saying - and for those that don't take my word on the damages I have attached some documents to prove how costly this is.

My suggestion to anybody that is considering one of these trucks (Diesel) is to make sure you have on hand plenty of extra cash IF - or WHEN the fuel sytsem dies. Warranty does not cover this - and few insurance companies consider this a covered loss.

Folks shoping between Diesel and Gas need to know the facts to make up their mind.

The first bill I am attaching is from a 2008 Ram - this guy got off easy at $5,600

The second is part of a series (2009 Ram) - it started out around $5 and grew to $12K. I've included the final bill (personal info removed) to show how quickly this adds up.

My last word on this is that people should also understand that your "facts" are not necessarily accurate or in context. I simply dispute your position and believe you are biased.

As an example, take a look at the attachments you provided. You'll see "contamination" clearly written, along with the inclusion of not only injectors and pump, but also a new FUEL TANK. Please explain exactly how a poor filtration system not only caused pump and injector failure but also the replacement of the tank? Ain't gonna happen. This is clearly a work order involving far more than what you allege, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised that the owner may have been trying to use biodiesel, maybe even home brewed. Don't know, but I DO know it was not just injector or pump failure.

Anyway, I won't hide behind the veil of some undisclosed "research" job in assuming costs or claims. A small handful of (questionable) receipts has a long way to go before you should be making claims of "when" fuel system failures will happen and why. Jmho.

I really think you have to own both to truly understand the differences. If you haven't it just not the same. Having owned both, I prefer diesel, but everybody has their own choices and that's great. The upside of tuning the diesel is a cool feature, even though mine is stock, a lot of friends get great mileage and their trucks are fast as heck.

Having owned both a 2001 HD Crew with the 6.0 tuner, cold air and headers.
And a 06 5.9 Dodge Cummins that I've changed from stock to mild modded., here are my 2 cents.

I've towed with both and same weighs and distances. The Diesel is hands down my choice, I will never go back to a gas truck. (unless it's a "fun truck" --one that is not used as a truck. A truck is for hauling stuff and treating it rough)I have towed 24' enclosed trailers load with a few thousand lbs. and open trailers with little weight.

The torque of the diesel will shine compared to the gas in a few areas. The ones that come to mind are mileage, hills (both up and down) and price to increase power.

Each brand of diesel has its draw backs.
Maintenance and fixing the "weak link" will cost more than a gas initially but if you’re going to own for a long time it is worth it.

The 6.0 I got 12mpg no matter what, hills knocked speed and mpg down when hauling the enclosed. The open trailer was better but hills still sucked with weight.

The diesel I can keep going @ 75mph and still pull 18mpg on hills, flat land I and go back over 20, this is with a loaded enclosed trailer.

Like I said - no worries - I have no idea why this has become so personal to you,- I promise I'm not taking a swipe at your pride in ownership of your truck, in fact I'm very happy to hear you have had such great success from your vehicle as well as others on here that are proud of their diesel trucks - but since it is your last word on the subject I humbly submit mine as well.

Yes, what you see is correct. The proper procedure per most manufacturers once there is a fuel system failure is to drop and clean the tank, flush the lines, replace all the filters - and then service all the other parts that were exposed. Sometimes this includes a tank replacement. This is for several reasons. One - the water has to be removed 100%. Also, you have a return line to your tank. The higher pressure pump will often self destruct when exposed to water. When that happens it will send shards of metal shavings back to the tank. I know you wouldn't have thought that on initial impression - but it does. Diesel fuel is dirty and most people that don't actually haul and use these like they should often neglect the fuel system and allow excess amounts of water to collect. It rots them out from the inside and devours the injectors and pump once it pushes past the WIF system. People getting into these trucks need to know how to take care of them. Being careless in where you buy your fuel, how you service your WIF system, and any attempt to use alternative fuels WILL result in a high repair bill. We looked at a F350 box truck that was a my2008 sold in 2011 as a new vehicle as it was a hold back on a dealer lot. It only had about 1,200 miles on it. It made it off the lot and went just a few more miles and fell on its face. $12,000 later Ford denied the claim and we found out that the fuel system once opened looked like it had been on the bottom of the ocean for two years - all the way to the injectors. Typical diesel fuel failure issue from sitting - BIG impact on the truck. One of the big problems Dodge had is the WIF sensor was getting clogged and NOT turning the warning lamp on. They had to eat a bunch of these claims under warranty until they got that fixed.



I can submit to you repair bills like you see above all day long. I am not hiding behind any sort of undisclosed research job. I will be happy to send a PM to anybody that questions my credentials. There are a handful of folks on this board that know me personally and know who it is I work for and what I do. I will tell you that the request topic of this thread is very timely to me since I have recently looked at several hundred of these type of failures in an effort to quantify and track them for my employer. We also have obtained some specimens and are in the process of doing destructive testing on them to try to get our arms around the nature of this problem.

This diesel issue is not going to rise to the point of a NHTSA recall from what I can see, but it is on the radar screen because there appears to be a series of both design defects with the vehicle, poor quality fuel issues, and finally owner/maintenance issues that are having an impact on everybody's wallet.

So bottom line - I could care less what somebody buys. I however am happy to share what I'm discovering at this point over the last couple of years on the new generation diesel engines and how this impacts the average consumer.


:lateral:

Having owned and operated large diesel boats -- with 1000 gallon (not a typo - One thousand gallon) fuel tanks... everything he is saying about dirty fuel is absolutely the truth.

When you have that much diesel "stored" --- and it has water in it (all diesel does) --- you can get all manor of microbial growth... that will wreck havoc on the fuel system filters and anything else it touches. It's easier to deal with on boats where we can run large filters and be able to switch to a back up filter if necessary. These RACOR filters spin the fuel to try to separate the gunk - and they have clear glass so you can SEE your fuel. That would be impossible on a pick up... with rocks etc. In the boat they're well protected in the engine room.

There are businesses that do nothing but clean fuel tanks and filter your fuel etc.

So I can see a truck that isn't getting used much - or buys fuel from a depot that doesn't pump much - getting seriously contaminated. And that spells Ex$pen$ive repairs.

So after reading 10 minutes worth of diesel vs Gas, I've concluded that Electric power is the BEST IN THE FREAKIN UNIVERSE!! :D

Go hang out with Flash in San Fran with daisies in you hair...:unibrow:

Actually its, "I couldn't care less". Unless you actually care.. :D :offtopic:

THERE YA GO AL!!!

I LIKE IT!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Greg, I agree with you but not in the same way. I'm extremely familiar with diesels and own a bunch (only 1 is a truck, the rest are relatively heavy equipment). I've personally experienced fuel contamination more than once. Not too long ago, just finished a total rebuild on a international 3cyl during a dozer restoration.

What I don't agree with is the premise that 69myway made, first insinuating that poor design was the result of the expensive repairs, and second that an '08 stock truck, used and maintained normally, would encounter this. They don't store 1000gals. The explanation simply doesn't jive to me. It just seems like data being used out of context. I'll ask again - how many diesel owners on this site have experienced these issues? How about some more actual feedback from this board?

As mentioned already, I have seen a bunch of people get in trouble with newer diesels in particular trying to run biodiesel. Frankly, ive run into issues with some of my other diesels but I always refused to put it in my truck. Newer high pressure injection systems are pretty darned picky.

I would have to guess that most of my diesels get used maybe twice a month. Year round. My truck gets used sporadically. Sometimes it's veer frequent but then it could go weeks without being touched. Of the probably 75 or so people I personally know that have diesel light trucks I'd guess that at least 50% use them during the summer only on weekends, and NEVER all winter. Have there been problems? Sure. A very small number have had to replace lift pumps, and sometimes injectors, etc. I will also say that most of those were on more heavily modified trucks with bigger turbos, full programmers, etc. None replaced fuel tanks.

230k miles.

The point is that this is not an emotional topic. 69myway claims to just want to "educate people" and I would simply prefer a less biased and more transparent process.

115K on my daily driver 2007 5.9 Ram. Most of it has been between 500 - 600 RWH depending on modifications and tuning. One of the first mods was a $600 lift pump and fuel filtration system. The same filtration system could have probably easily prevented the previously mentioned example of complete fuel system failure, and should be considered standard equipment for anyone considering running anything other than clean, brand name diesel #2.

No major issues from any of my stock parts except for a computer module failure that was fixed under warranty.

The weak spots in modern diesel trucks have been found and can be easily bullet proofed with some homework and aftermarket parts.

Just my $.02....I have a 2001 2500hd Duramax 4x4. This truck has been in the family since new and just crossed 200k. Since new it has needed the following:

Water pump

Front right hub assembly replaced

Oil

Fuel

Washer fluid

Tires.

This truck has not lived an easy life. We have towed and off roared the truck like we hate it and it keeps on going. I have carried a long bed cab over in my short bed while towing a boat behind and still out climb the hills compared to cars!

If you are ever going to tow buy the duramax! It is a heavier duty truck with an engine, trans and cooling system meant for heavy loads.

I have used my buddies 2004 2500hd that has a 6.0l engine. It is not as fun to drive, gets worse mileage and really sucks to tow with. I get 15+mpg loaded or not.

Granted, I'm coming up on the recommended head gasket change for my model engine due to a head gasket design defect in the first gen duramax engines. Big deal after little to no trouble and 200k. Worth every penny to keep this level of useable power.

Man, all these problems I've been reading about newer diesels make me glad I have an 7.3L Powerstroke. Parts are cheap, good power, good economy, and very long lasting.

I just had the FICM (Fuel injection control module) go out on my 06 F350. It's basically a circuit board that converts 12v to 48v so that the 48v signal can drive the injectors. Rather than do a Ford replacement, I am using an aftermarket piece that costs half as much and uses a 58v signal which drives the injectors a bit more....vigorously.

This is one of the very few issues I've had with the 6.0L (so far). The $450 part stings the wallet a bit, but it could be much worse. The upside is I should be able to turn this part failure into a slight upgrade in HP, Torque, and MPG. Again, it could be worse...

I really do miss the simplicity of the 7.3L. And when tuned properly, they make great power. Upside is I sold it to my dad so it'll never be too far away.

Thats the part that I just replaced in my '06 F350... but I paid $1200 for the factory version (including R&R). I was on the road in So Cal towing the trailer so wouldn't have been able to shop for anything else even if I'd have known there was a better version! The best thing was - it didn't leave me F.O.R.D. -- I was able to drive to a hotel and to the dealership the next morning. So I was happy about that!