Me too!

Yes they did... both personally and company wise.

Greg, does that mean he can't attend the shows personally?

If that is the case, I would wounder what they'd do to the guy if they saw him roaming around?

Shoot to kill.:rofl:

I've been thinking about buying a set of hinges for my Nova for a while. I have looked at Ring Bros., Fesler and EMS...and without question go with Ring Brothers now!!!

Is there a price difference between the two?
With that said, could this be a "you get what u pay for"
If there priced equivalent, than its basically up to the consumer to chose from there. I definitely understand the RB's frustration, but as most of posted theres not much you can do. It basically comes down to marketing/customer service in my opinion. RB has innovated a lot of really cool products over the years that most likely will continue to be somewhat copied.
I look at it this way, its like buying body panels... most tend to purchase Goodmark ("the original/preferred") in lieu second hand overseas companies following suit. Personally I like to stick with "the originator"

I believe AMD makes the better sheetmetal now.

http://www.autometaldirect.com/aboutus.aspx

Maybe so Charley, but that somewhat wasnt the point I was trying to make.
No need for reply, dont want to steer thread offtrack.

Isnt Fesler a supporting vendor? Up until this thread I have always thought they were a reputable name.

Bob well said!!!!

They are a supporting vendor, and they are reputable group of people, when it comes to selling products. Perhaps they did not have the most professional behavior at the time that they were banned from Good Guys shows, and while they do have a number of parts that are very similar to a few other vendors here, to my knowledge (and I have ordered from Fesler on occasion) you aren't going to be ripped off.

Matt

I would agree with Matt.... I had Chris work on my daughters Mustang suspension (she's in college down there) -- they did great work and were far more reasonable than I expected - and I gave Chris carte blanche to just "do whatever it takes".

However, I still think it's morally and patently (not patent as in legal) wrong to plagiarize anyone else's work and or designs without their consent regardless of what it is or who it is.

I can understand wanting to "update" or offer a slightly different version of their hinge to stimulate some more business, but why do almost the exact same design as another exsiting company?

They could have just as easily machined a different pattern....why the "triangular" style, just like RB? Why not a more "square" pattern or "linear pattern" or round cutouts etc etc. There are quite a few way to change it up without doing something just like the Ring Bros.

I can understand that when you make a new and innovative part and its a success, you will end up have copies coming out of the woodwork.....but it will still piss me off.

[QUOTE=Hdesign;359906]I've been watching this thread with A LOT of interest and since Scott brought my name up in an example I'll add my $.02 for what it's worth.

What I provide is a service, I produce intangible design solutions to problems. The only product I produce currently is a print of the final design. The intellectual property is owned by myself and/or my client depending on the agreement.

There is no more difficult position to be in than a designer/artist when it comes to protecting intellectual property and art. It's a real Catch 22. 25% of my week is spent battling someone from using unauthorized art in ads, or attempting to sell multiple prints and shirts from a design I've done in the past, or a shop ripping off an innovative design element a client paid me to. All they have to do is ask and we can figure out something that is mutually beneficial.

Then again, I do like having my work viewable as marketing assets. Potential clients need to see my thought process in order to feel confident in my services. I have to hang intellectual property out in the breeze for all to see, knowing that it's going to get ripped off and I won't get credit. It happens more than I'd like to admit.

I have to be a rabid pitbull sometimes and it's incredibly frustrating. Some people are either totally ignorant to intellectual property laws or they flat out don't give a damn. They don't realize/care that this is what puts food on a designer/artist's table. They're literally stealing from my family.

That said, I'm moving into the next phase of my business plan which includes development of parts, prints and apparel. The amount of legal BS that I've been dealing with for the past 12 months is insane, but I want to be sure I'm protected from every single angle against this stuff. I know I'm not going to stop every lazy slug from ripping off something but I'

I will agree with you. After reading this thread i will now buy only RB. Im glad that they came out and said something. Its sad how things work in this world but im sure glad that we have :lateral: .

I agree with 96z28ss, looking at the pics,the hinges are not same or even close. People need to understand, that no matter of design, they still have to bolt up to factory bolt holes serve their purpose as factory,so in the end they might have simillar look,because of it compact constraints ,the moving parts can only have certain shape.

I don't know how Fesler came up with their version,but there is nothing wrong with variety and good competition,as long as it's not exact copy and all good quality stuff. However I can somewhat relate ,because I have some time in design and producing composite parts.But at the same time you can't expect or assume that you are the only company that will be making and selling hinges or any billet parts. There are plenty of companies with high-tech equipment and software that can design and produce parts out of billet or some exotic materials.I am a big fan of RB :lateral: Just keep at it,be creative and put out quality parts,you will succeed.:woot:

I will also say that Chris is a good vendor and anyone dealing with Fesler will get great customer service .:thumbsup:

Fesler's Response. . .WARNING-LONG POST
 

Hello everyone, it is Carrie Fesler. . . Chris’ wife. Chris would love to respond personally but he is currently behind the wheel of our show rig driving us and our displays to MN. So for now, I will have to do.

First and foremost, I would like to thank Ring for posting our newest advertisement on the front page of this thread. . .complete with our website and phone number.

Second, I hope this (what is now a) 6-page thread was able to mend the hearts, pride and minds of Mike and Jim Ring. I can’t imagine going through life or trying to run a business with stuff like this getting under your skin.. . .especially with what is out there right now. Hopefully all the well wishes and pats on the back will be enough to get them through.

Third, Bob said it best in his post. I could have not summed it up better (of course I will be forced to try) or with better examples. It is disappointing though that no one really acknowledges (even the administrators) his post or the accuracy of it. Instead, the fingers keep typing without absorbing anything other than what fits their vindictive minds. To refresh everyone’s memory. . .

I started thinking about what you wrote Matt.
On my Camaro I have the old style Ringbrothers Hinge. It has the shock pointing downward. Also my early version has an adjustable link that tie the 2 arms together (they stopped doing that) . These were the only Hinge at the time of purchase. attachment 1.

I did a search here for when Fesler announced his hinge summer of 2007 this thread.
https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=10434

Looking at the pictures you can see that his hinge is more then a 10% difference. The base is different, his shock placement is different, the arms are different.

The weird thing is that now Ringbrothers changed the camaro hinge to a base and shock position that look more like the Fesler ones. attachment 2.


Fourth, I know I would never be able to leave this post with just that so I will defend us with the following facts. . .
Fact 1: Ring Brother did create the first billet hood hinge for both the 67-69 Camaro and 64-66 Mustang. For comparison purposes, I will be referring to the Camaro hinge since that is the one everyone is moaning about. Just as Bob stated, when Ring first introduced their hinge their base was quite a bit larger than it is now and their strut came down at roughly a 45-degree angle. They also used a heim joint. . .not a dogbone.

Fact 2: Fesler (in 2007) approached Ring with a 1970 Chevelle hood hinge which we had designed for a customer’s car. We had no interest in manufacturing hood hinges and thought Ring would be the best choice to approach with our design to see if they would be willing to private label our design for us just as they were doing for DSE (which by the way was the first company to SELL billet hood hinges). It was shocking to learn that Ring had zero control over their manufacturing process and simply subbed the work out to small production shops. It was also disappointing to learn that they had no interest in creating parts for the Chevelle market since it was, according to them, a soft market with little chance of selling. Left with no other choice and believing that the Chevelle market was worth entering, we stepped up, bought the necessary machinery and began manufacturing what is now known as the 708 hood hinge for 69-72 Chevelles. A hinge that Ring now offers coincidently.
So, after being snubbed by these supposedly coolest and most down to earth people ever we continued to expand our line by re-engineering the Camaro hinge to operate correctly, alleviate the firewall rubbing from the angled arm and discontinued the use of the inadequate and dangerous heim joint and replaced it with our dogbone that we copied from our dog’s name tag hanging from his collar. We also managed to increase the hood opening by more than 6 additional inches with the new “horizontal strut” design. It does not take a genius to figure out what type of strut position Ring’s hinges are in now or that their magical, necessary heim joint has disappeared from their design.
With that being said, let’s address the air frame or geometric design. I am a business. The end goal of any business is to make money. If it wasn’t, it would be called a hobby, not a business. So, knowing that we are a business, we are here to make money. Those of you who know us already know that we decide what product to make by how many requests we get from the public. This determines the order in which we design, prototype and manufacture new products. If people constantly ask me for a product I do not have, you can bet your britches I am going to offer it. I highly doubt Ring turned away any customers who wanted SS struts instead of their black Lucid struts back when they did not offer SS. I bet they found a way to find and sell what their customers were asking for.

Fact 3: Fesler designed, prototyped, manufactures and sells right around 29 first gen Camaro specific products along with an additional 14 or so universal parts that will fit the Camaro. Ring, according to their website as of today offers right around 8 products specific to the first gen Camaro. I don’t think it is necessary that I go on and on comparing products but it is obvious that Ring has come out with product similar to ours after we have initially introduced them.

Fact 4: Fesler is a business and because of the overwhelming positive feedback and requests for new products we are now a serious manufacturing facility. Ring are car builders, and great ones at that, who supplement their builds with sales of some of the products they have designed for customer cars. I am only assuming this is their position and I may be wrong but from what I observe, Ring seems far more committed to continuing to build their impressive, award winning projects than they do to creating a massive line of billet parts. It’s hard to do both.. . we know.
We are so committed to manufacturing that we spend stupid amounts of money to attend SEMA every year and display our products in our own booth. Other companies do not “pony up” per say for that position, they simply share space with other, larger exhibitors to avoid the real cost of operating, displaying and advertising as a real manufacturer. These are the reasons General Motors along with other reputable companies such as Baer Brakes, OER, Chris Alston’s Chassisworks, Ididit, Asanti, PRC, just to name a few have recognized our efforts and dedication to producing a quality product. It’s not like we pull this stuff out of thin air, we work hard for products and the recognition we receive.

Fact 5: In reference to being called out one year at SEMA, yes there was incident involving Fesler and Marquez. I can only imagine what the story is now, years later, regarding this event but the fact of the matter remains that the incident was a heated discussion that turned angry when one individual felt it necessary to refer to someone’s wife as an “F-ing Stupid B!t@^”. As you can imagine, that didn’t go over well. Other than that, the conversations we have with Marquez are our business and unless he feels it necessary to include all of you, I simply will not go there. Of course I will be accused of avoiding the situation and not explaining or answering to your questions, however, it is none of your business and is irrelevant to the question at hand.

Fact 6: Fesler has been banned from all future Goodguy’s event. . . voluntarily. This resolution was mutual between the Goodguy’s organization and Fesler. If you were not there, then you don’t know what happened. Plain and simple we were bored of the price increases, favoritism, and decreasing spectator and participant attendance. It costs money to attend shows, set up, man the booth and leave a running business so the ROI (return on investment) has to be there for it to be worth it. Simply said, Goodguy’s wasn’t working for us anymore. So we moved on. We are still attending shows, just not on the Goodguy’s circuit.

Finally, both Chris and I have the utmost respect for Ring Brothers (or at least we did until this post) and Marquez design. All of these guys are great designers and truly stand out in this industry. We have never disputed that. . .ever. Just because we have our differences, doesn’t mean we still cannot respect each other. These message boards are so full of people picking fights and others joining whatever cause make them feel slightly better about themselves. If you are not in the manufacturing business, then personally I don’t feel you are qualified to even have an option. Just because you read about it on the internet, doesn’t make it so.

I am over the he said, she said drama. I have no interest in pointing fingers and any attempts to say I did so are pure ignorance on the person who dares. The market is big enough for everyone, even the ones that don’t do it right. Competition is what drives any market and if you don’t believe me, pay attention to some advertising heavy hitters like Coke vs Pepsi or Chevy vs Ford or Kleenex vs Puffs.

Buy the brand you like based on what you know personally. That is a decision I can understand and respect.

Until next time. . . happy motoring.

lol...??? Yeah that respect was def. Shown in the marquez booth a few years back...
the post was created out of frustration because when you all got into the billet biz (after have rb and marquez products on hand) rb decided to be creative and differ their design form the "traditional" hinge look with the air frames and you bite that design plan and simple since your not artists and just in the biz of making money (yes your very good at that aspect of it, customer service and knowing what's needs to be brought in the market)you don't understand how upsetting it it when others just rip off your personla creative
work...

my "Thread Closed" senses are tingling.

With all do respect.. Mr or Mrs Fesler whichever posted the above it seems to me that you saying your product is not the same because a boss is thicker or the strut is on a Diff angle or that you used a heim joint over a dog bone.

Are you saying its OK to copy a product make some simple changes and that is OK?

Or are you saying you engineered a product very much like the originator by happenstance and as evidence note the angle difference on the strut and the joint Difference?

ALSO for what do you attribute your companies ability to release so many products? Do you outsource the R&D or what because I can see how you could make so many products without a head start.

i can understand that the pickup points need to be the same and that RB should not feel entitled to being the only manufacture, but to copy the arms air frame design was a slap in the face. that for me put it over the top.

Actually, a co-worker friend of mine is a USAF scientist and has several patents. Even patents can be copied as long as there is changes in the design. Although, he gets upset when a company does an exact copy of his design. Then he has to go to court over it. Does Fesler or Ringbrothers have patents on their hinges? No! Are they exact copies? No, they are similar but not exact copies of each other. I bought a set of Ringbrother's hinges, but I wish that they opened farther like the Fesler design. I sent an email in the past to Ringbrother's requesting that change to be made in the airframe design, they refused to do it. So if Ringbrothers want to make a better hinge, then just change the design and make it more functional. Competition is good for the consumer.

Jeff

I really think this is one of those threads that really is not going to help or solve anything. No matter what anyone says, there are still going to be people that will believe what they want. Personally, I don't think this thread looks good for either vendor. We have seen these discussions before. Should Chevrolet be upset that someone is making a hinge other than theirs? The geometry is close but not exact between the billet hinges and the stockers. Both of these vendors are very good and very knowledgeable. Each have their own specific strengths. I think the consumer needs to research both products and companies and choose what fits. As an aside, I have not purchased from either vendor. If either one had a part I needed, I don't think I would hesitate to buy from either. Let me expand more. As some of you may know, we are building a truck. I love the look of the billet hinges. For quite some time, no one made a billet hinge for our truck. I am an Engineer and decided to design my own. I have one modeled in Solidworks. I just have not gotten to the point of building it because we are not ready for it. Now, a couple companies offer it. If I were to make mine now and try to market it, would I be accused of copying? At this point, I will probably purchase one that is on the market now. It simply does not make financial sense for me to follow through with my design. It would cost me far more than just buying them. Let's take it a bit further. If when I buy a set and by chance decide I am not happy with the quality or operation, am I precluded from redesigning them and trying to bring a superior product to market just because mine would look similar to another? I think you will find there are a huge number of companies that have been born and thrive based on the sole principle of trying bring their own superior version of something that already exists to market. The best example I can come up with is the wheel industry. If the first billet wheel was the only one allowed, we would all be pretty unhappy.

In the end, I think the Ring Brothers are first class and highly talented. I don't think you guys should be worried or upset. If you feel you were copied, be flattered and continue to raise the bar. Also, Fesler has introduced many more products to the market that allow all of us to have choices when it comes to bring our visions to life. Parts that RB do not offer. We should all do our own research an decide based on our own wants and needs who we purchase from. I think that is what a free market is all about. I encourage all the vendors to keep pushing the envelope of design and performance so that we don't end up with cars that all look the same! :lateral: :cheers:

I get it and agree with everything you said... I just want to know if Fesler created these from scratch or by modifying the existing design...

I agree.I guess Fesler just needs to machine round holes instead of airframe to keep RB nutswingers shut.

People need to realize there is only so much you can do to make a bolt-on custom hinge that replaces stock hinge.

Chad, you nailed it:thumbsup:

I completely agree with all of the above.

Yeah, people usually agrees on anything they know they can't lose with.

Anyway, I think I might be losing something, and maybe all of us are too, because I saw the designs, and they're not that similar (they're really different) but if the brothers are doing this is for a reason, so that's why I think we're missing something around here. They can't be mistaken, I mean, has Chris showed up in here yet? He hasn't said a thing about this (not that I'm calling him guilty, I don't want to get misunderstood here) but I'm still thinking that we're missing something important, anyway, let's Jim and Mike Ring solve this with Chris @ Fesler, they're the big boys around here.

And a 19 y/o is going to tell you this, you all (yes you the mature people, the grown ups) look like a bunch of 8 year olds.

The Ring Brother's hinges open further than stock now as I compared Stielows with my stock ones on Jackass. I just need to get a set. Ring Brother's are the absolute guys that thought of and built them first on a car they had at SEMA. I t was their idea. If you want to do the right thing you will buy from the guys that came up with it first. It isn't like they gouge...They build nice stuff. As I recall Fesler showed a Camaro tail light a couple years ago that was a exact copy of a tailt light that Lillard MFG wrote the programming for and built for Marquez. It was exact right down to the random fixture holes on the back side.

LoL!!! Quote of the day!! :cheers:

RB came up with them it appears, Fessler made them available to other cars that were not of intrest to RB. What about Holley and Demon? Is this the same thing? Holley came up with the design and all waaaay before Demon came and made some improvements. That's just business IMO, the "innovators" will continue to innovate and the "others" will continue to capatilize and improve what was already thought up by others.
Right or wrong?? I dunno, but it is the way it is.



Now an EXACT copy......that is a totally different issue altogether! :_paranoid

Exactly. Just keep building the best products you can, people that know quailty will always keep coming back to you.:thumbsup:

SW

Didn't you once admit that you are too cheap to purchase a set of billet hinges for Jackass?...

Marquez Design... and the Ring Brothers are the truth....

nuff said.

Well, that is nice to know. I never knew that they changed the design. I just got my RB hinges a month ago, but it will be awhile before the hood goes on. I never bought any of Fesler parts. Just the design didn't appeal to me.

Jeff

Put yourself in RB situation. You go thru the design, engineering , production, etc. Which takes alot of work, time and money. Then you hopefully are lucky enough for it to be likeable and purchaseable. Then you take the expensive plunge to make some for sell. Now you must make enough to pay for some of the costs to bring it to market.

Then someone copies your piece bypassing the events in the first paragraph. That would make anybody upset, right. No matter what the product is, in any arena.

Competition is one thing, making a better product is great, but copying really goes across the line IMO.

Man, this thread really hits home for me. We've seen numerous copies of our designs (and branding) out there and it really ticks me off. We have even had some competitor's staff equipped with tape measures and digital cameras checking out our suspension designs at shows. Some just do not care at all...

Who's the D.A. who calls RB to bitch about a product you bought from Fesler? Is the 1-800 number for customer support not working at Fesler?

Bought stuff from both people have no complaints either way...just live in the real world and know bolt on rarely means that. Worked for weeks on shocks to get Yearone "foose" hood to work with RB hinges. Worked for a while to get Fesler trunk hinges to work right.

WOW ..... A hood hinge... What next, DSE vs Speedtech, BozeForge vs Rushforth, KONI vs QA-1 , we can go on and on. I really did'nt want to reply to this thread because I think its a joke personally.It would be one thing if everyone would stay on topic but this never happens it turns into a friggin love hate fest for one guy or another. So we go from a copied hood hinge to a guy getting tossed out of GOODGUYS fighting with Marquez. So where we going with this? What does this have to do with a copied hood hinge? Man when Feslers name comes up its always a sh^t storm! I never seen a vendor get blasted like this guy. I think this whole thing should be taken to the courts if R/B feels that strong about it NOT HERE! The guys been nothing but good to me and so has a ton of other vendors and I also have had alot of vendors that treat you like there doing you a favor by answering the phone!But again that has nothing to do with this thread....Just my stupid opinion...I'm done:soapbox:

:rofl:

I'll just echo Chads comments. To be honest, this kind of thing should be handled between the respective parties if there is something there. Frankly, IMHO it first tarnishes my perception of the company making the public accusation in this manner befor anything else. I don't know what happened, but I'll be honest, this thread has not helped anyone. It comes across like a lack of professionalism. Just my honest opinion. I could be way odd, but it doesn't matter if I am. This kind of public flogging creates a destructive environment. I will disclose that I'm a very satisfied Fesler customer who bought their product based on design and not price, and that in the only situation that I needed it, Carrie stood FIRMLY behind the product, going above and beyond the expected. If there is truly an infringement issue, deal with it privately and If necessarily legally. Should that happen people will understand, if there are no grounds, it's business. I can't believe it's surprising that some amount of duplication happens.

Band aids to frying pans.....they all get "copied" or "improved"

It happens. Move on.