Maybe you're right... so I'm leavin a lot on the table then.... I'll have to remedy that before we meet again. :unibrow:

Gin... the only way to make a Martini :)

Dub, if it's completin' ya need...

Updating the OLC as we speak...

http://www.onelapcamaro.com/2012OLC/Floaterpic.jpg

OLC2 will be using Chicane/SpeedTech setup

As the big names in PT already have changed, and others follow, one of these various floater systems will soon be a "must have" for all future big time PT builds, whether the driver/owner really needs it or not. It was just a matter of time...

James, did you have bad knockback in your previous setup?

I would not say that I had an issue with knockback... and it certainly never was "bad"... but from time to time - depending on the track - it was noticable. I've got manual brakes and pretty finely tuned masters and honestly never felt that the problem was bad enough that I had to change but after the issues that we had last year during the One Lap with the bearings we were going to have to make some changes regardless.

There have been a lot of comments made about the increased cost of the floater setups - regardless of the manufacturer - but one consideration that helps offset the floater costs is that the axes are less then half the the cost of high quality solid axles.

We've got to tack some brackets on, bend up some brake lines and we should be good to go. Currie Enterprises did the assembly on the Baer Floater and everything looks promising so far.

Tom's design using the Corvette hubs should be awesome, especially since it will allow for a lot of potentially cool benefits...

James brings up an issue I was going to address in my previous post. Axle bearing maintenence with tapered bearings is costly over the life of the car. The question is, are these other floaters any better from that standpoint? I'd have to say yes to a point. The corvette hub design will prove to be the cats meow. As if Stielows word isn't enough.

I don't think floaters are that hard to maintain. At least I don't have to put silicone to seal the axles from leaking constantly, which is a plus. I also decided against building camber into the housing because I was a little bit afraid of increased wear and tear. Not sure how real those fears were though. All I would say, and I couldn't help but think of this when I saw the OLC floater, is to make sure to put in some inner tube axle seals if you're planning on driving lots of miles of interstate and track time. You probably have it all figured out James, but I figured I'd throw it out because most people aren't aware of the inner tube axles seals. At least I wasn't. I think Payton suggested I use them to prevent a tiny bit of leaking I've had during track time. On the One Lap they would provide added peace of to help insure that the grease on the floater's bearings doesn't get washed out.

Doug, as to your question, I am not running an internal hat style parking brake. I wasn't really thinking about it at the time. I figure I can always just add little caliper to the rear rotor if I want.

BTW, I missed you and the Rennermobile at Cars and Coffee. My car "decided" to show up with a flat tire again just to strike up some good conversation without you around.

Matt

Todd asked it you have ever seen a deep dish on a Corvette.

I would answer Yes it is just all to the inside. which in theory "this is my theory right or wrong" would just load the bearing the opposite way???

Matt made a post commenting on the master cyl sizes possibly making a differance in the knock back. and resicual pressure valves, i think i remeber Mark S saying the RES Valve made no differance and in theory it shouldn't make any differance as it is only holding pressure not stopping reverse flow back to the MC.
I run a tripple master set up with a 7/8 front and 1" rear and could probably change the rear to a 7/8 as i have ath balance bar adjusted full rear. i have the Bare Proplus with tapered bearings (they dont leak.... yet) and there is a sligth amount of knockback still, I will likley change to the ZR1 floater before RTTC.

Blake, I don't remember exactly what I said, or if I accidentally typed "would" instead of "wouldn't" or something to that effect. I'm going to just play the "it was late" card right off the bat :lol: Anyway from what I remember hearing, the 10lb residiual valve wasn't a noticeable difference. It has also been interesting hearing Charlie's commentary about Jackass. From all the "internet science and engineering" we've gathered, (and I don't feel like rehashing all of the talk about m/c bore sizes, etc.) the popular belief seems to be that a larger master makes knock back less noticeable, as would 'Vette wheels, and yet Jackass's pedal would fall to the floor just like the pedal in my car with its little 7/8 master and 6" backspaced wheels.

Matt

Don't forget an important wheel factor....

If your offset is all to the inside (Corvette) the outside edge is what is seeing the load on a corner -- and the inside edge of opposite side is unloaded for the most part.... and that can be 100's of pounds difference between the loads seen at the bearing/rotor vs a "deep dish" style wheel.

I forgot to add -- the more grip a car has - the more "G" force it can produce -- thus multiplying the weight of the car "side loads".... and I'm sure most of these big ass fatty tired cars are capable of 1 g +.... so now you hang that big wide tire - on a deep dish wheel and put it way to the outside of the bearing/rotor and it's no wonder we're seeing this discussion.

I thought we learned about LEVERAGE in the 4th grade??

I love Monday morning quarter backs. I suppose you are a Tebow fan to?

Sometimes it seems it takes a lot of time for some of you to figure this all out.... I'm not sure we can live thru 3 more years of shock adjusting. :rofl:

Maybe go out and buy a separate set of wheels and tires for the track events... and save yourself a whole bunch of bs..... But then I forgot the whole Optima argument about race cars on the street... :unibrow:

Just to be clear -- my '32 Ford has a full floater rear end... by definition... :D

The drive axle is driving a floating stub axle and thus only transmits the torque load...

By wheels and tires for a track day, do you mean something kind of similar to this :unibrow:
http://mustangsdaily.com/blog/wp-con...by-gt350-r.jpg

Or do you actually mean just wheels and tires?

Matt

Oh that reminds me, has anyone tried this approach to solving knockback?

http://www.chicagonow.com/lists-that...1/tebowing.png

Matt

For a fat guy you're not very jolly.

:rofl:

Yep ---- You want to track a car buy a track car... leave the show car at home.

:rofl:

:rofl: :rofl:


Want a perfect "race car" just buy a new $60,000 Corvette... save yourself all the hassle. I've beat on 'em for days at the track - no knock back whatsoever!

:D

Yeah, that would probably be cheaper than buying a set of HREs and track tires for the "show car."

I await a come back Greg. Doug's thread still has tinge of relevancy right now, and you need to correct that!

Yeah - if he wasn't so cheap he'd just pony up and buy "another" race car... 3 '69 Camaro's -- Drag - Road race - and the Donk....

I hear yat Matt lots of different ideas to consider, I guess it could all be a thing of the past if the bake companies just made the caliers floating??
FYI on my car with the triple master set up the worst case is that you ave to tap the brake pedal to reset the pads, and Jay and I have just got in the habit of doing that but it NEVER falls to the Floor.

I think you hit the nail on the head there Blake. When the brake companies started introducing the large by huge brake packages, they did it with fixed calipers. They look awesome! These were originally racing pieces typically mounted on floating rears or IRS set-ups. This goes back to Todd's point about racing parts on the street. They seemed to be fine and look great until you start tracking a car and applying loads to the rear axles much greater than any situation you would encounter on the street. Now with the higher loads, knock back is an issue. So now the question is, do you go back to a more street caliper (floating) set-up or do you go to the more race rear end (floating). Or you come up with a solution like you and Chicane are bringing to market. This is one of the things I like about the Pro-Touring movement I'll call it, a problem arises and there are companies willing to step-up and solve it with parts available to the masses. Good Stuff! Now the hard part, what do I do on our truck? I had thought about this in the beginning and tried to make decision accordingly, but now I'm not sure. Our rear is a 9" with Big Bearing ends and tapered rollers on the 31 spline Moser Axles. The rear brakes are the 14" Wilwood 4 Piston Radial Mount deals. The rear wheel will be 10" with about 4.25 to 4.5" of back space. Speaking pretty honestly, this will not be a "Track" vehicle. Maybe once or twice just to stretch it's legs. It will spend the bulk of it's time on the street and doing some auto crossing. Is the auto crossing enough to warrant a whole sale change in rear end and expensive brakes? The brakes were mostly for looks to fill a 20" wheel. Don't know! Decisions Decisions :cheers:

Lots of good info and discussion going on here!

Does anyone know off-hand which inner axle seals will work with a 35 spline axle? I have been looking for a while and all the seals I find only claim to fit 31 spline.

And throughout this entire thread I didn't see any mention of the GMR setup, that's what I decided to buy.

Yeah, I was hoping Jason might chime in here--why did you decide to go with his setup?

I decided on his after A LOT of research, but at the time the only Full Floaters that were available were Moser, Speedway, and The GMR. I was sold on the bearing spread and MUCH cleaner hub design and finishing that GMR did.

But today there are a couple more options to consider Baer and Chicane/Speedtech. I don't really like the Baer kit, it just doesn't look as stout at the GMR setup but it does include the e-brake which is nice. When I look at it I think of a swiss army knife, there are piece/parts everywhere and it may do the job but not as well as other setups.

Now I am REALLY intrigued by the Chicane/Speedtech kit, it's a really good design and I really like the fact that they use some OEM off the shelf components. I would jump all over this if ABS was something that I really wanted to have, but again comparing hardware between GMR and this design I would say GMR is the stronger design.

This is all my opinion, and I haven't actually done any stress analysis on any of the kits nor have I run the GMR stuff yet so I don't know how it will handle the racing environment.

I'm here, I have not read though the entire thread but are there any specific questions you would like answered?

Jason

I experience a lot of knockback as well, but this is coming from a guy who has floating calipers. I use C5 calipers with a 7/8 Wilwood MC.

Around Buttonwillow & Thunderhill, and the El Toro track and autocross, I can do a few laps and know reliably which braking zones I will experience knockback; some corners are completely trouble free, and some corners the pedal is undoubtedly soft in the same zone lap after lap..."gotta pump it up for turns 3,5,8...etc"

Deflection is definitely part of the problem; 28 spline axles and the original 8.2" rear aren't what I would call stiff.

But there is also another nagging problem and that's axle play (inboard/outboard motion of the axle). I'm guessing I'm not the only one who has 3/16" of axle freedom, and if you go around a combination of corners where one or both axles moves, there's another source of pads spreading. This became very clear to me in autocross; there is much more severe and abrupt lateral weight transfer and consequentially I must pump the brakes around the whole track to keep the pedal up. Also very prevalent after hitting track curbing on road courses, where you get a lot of impact that can move and deflect the braking system.

I am about to install a 5lb knockback spring under the piston (or maybe a pair under each for 10lbs) to see if it helps.

The residual valve we all know does the same thing. I bought one but haven't installed it yet. I hate messing with brake lines so I want to try the springs first. Running a quick number on residual valves: 10psi residual pressure on a 40mm diameter (C5) piston = 19lbs. So it will be pushing against the piston almost 4x harder than the spring I'm installing.

If you keep the caliper pins lubricated and free from binding, the springs or valve should be able to do their job. I don't know if 5lbs, 10lbs, or 19lbs of force is enough, but I am going to start with 5lbs and work my way up.

I will be sure to post the spring install and results after RTTC.

:cheers: :cheers:

Get rid of that 3/16 end play and your problem will be solved. That's way to much slop for any caliper set up. I bet someone has figured out an economical solution. Otherwise you are putting lip stick on a pig.

You've seen my car, it's lipstick everywhere on that pig! :lol:

Totally agree though...ultimately I need a new rear but that's a can of worm$ I don't want to open right now. I blame the Investing 102 thread.

From the info "I" can find . this car uses the ZR1 rear hubs and mono block calipers (fixed i will assume)

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/...midohio008.jpg

sorry pic is small , 2011 C6R

Pull those axles and figure out a way to attach a shim to the axle ends. It won't cost you squat and will fix your problem. Send the rest of the money to the Todd Akes "I need another BEER fund" Hendertucky USA.:lol: :cheers:

Hey Doug, if you are curious about the Baer floater and want to check them out, let me know... I have everything in my garage waiting to get installed.

I should have the OLC at RTTC3 with the new Bear floater assembly... I hope... The rear end is all together, we just need to get brake lines done and hopefully it will bolt right in...

At least that is the plan...

I bought a really sweet 14" floater kit 8 months ago and i have had zero knockback issues as the parts are still in the box and i have no time to install them.

Hi Doug better late then never.
Sounds like i need to let you use some floater spray

On your drum brakes

My Moser 9" floater is finished. I blead the brakes over the weekend. Total cost on the complete rear end including housing, hubs, axles, center section and brakes was just short of $2500.

http://hayes-ent.com/steve/images/Ca...0112%20001.JPG

http://hayes-ent.com/steve/images/ca...201 003med.jpg

What does Mosier use for a parking brake?

looks great. what rear rotor is that? part number?

whats the WMS to WMS measurment?

Any pics of the caliper bracket?

TheJDMan - Looks good! Props to you for getting another thing checked off the list in your build, I really like your caliper / rotor selection as well. I'm a big fan of the Asymmetrical GT style rotors! Your car is really coming along.

Jason