Sounds like the trouble we had doing the tank on my Chopper,everytime it was something...sand through the clear,white spots like yours,lifting ect. Took like 5 times to get it right and not 3 months later the paint lifted around the gas cap! SOLD IT!!!!

The thought has crossed my mind! However, Charley would likely kill me!

Jody

We have a word of saying over here, you might have the same, it goes something like this. (Translated freely)

"To cut corners is often the long way"

Since you are now getting short on time and are going to do more by yourself, take it easy and aim for the 2006 tour. This paintjob you are about to start will probably take even more time. I mean it could be that you have to redo it and then the frustration and stress will take over.

Your car is going to be one of the best looking, best performing PT-cars. So take your time, it will pay off in the long run. You will probably have some time over to sort it out before you go on the tour too.

I know that you are ancious to get it done, we have all been there some time and we all know that it is better to bite the bullet and take it easy and do it properly.

I feel sorry for you and I hope I could help you practically than with words.

Keep the spirit!!!https://lateral-g.net/forums/imag...s/thumbsup.gif


Jan

That is unfortunate :( . But take your time and get it the way you want, the Power Tour comes every year. :D

So you're going to strip all the color off the car? How are you going to do it?

I'm a base/clear coat fan, :) .

I'm told a DA is the way to go but I'll block it by hand with 80 grit. The DA is going to undo all the blocking we've already done, the car is very straight right now.

Jody

block
 

wow, you are gonna have fun,
i would get a soft hook it pad for your da and use some 80 to rip thru it, the soft pad will save you from gouging into it to bad, plus i would let car be in sun for a day or two after stripping before you prime again.
if you do not have a good da, get one, like a air advantage or a nice hutchins with a 3/32 swirl or less, alot finer finish, then with a soft back up pad you should have no problems, plus you will be re priming car so you can block it out in good shape then
jake

Paint
 

Just saw what was happening. I hate to hear about your paint. I know that you have to set a time for these things to be completed, but don't put any undo stress on yourself to get it done before the power tour. Take you time and make what ever the next big event is. I do not think mine is going to be ready for the tour either, but then I thought...do I really want to take a car that I have been working on for 3.5 years, rush it together and then drive 2500 miles? I will catch it next year. Good luck to you.

Paint color is a hard choice...I loved the black...I would hate to keep it scratch free. You inpired me to go with the SS hood, I am going yellow with the black hockey stripe. Suprise us with you choice!

paint
 

Jody, whatever you decide, it will look great. 69,Fikse,Mini-tubbed - heck in primer it will still look great!!!!

Primer it is! :eek:

Jody

LOL!! Pink suede?

Waxed Suede even!!

What about Dupont's Hot Hues Hot Rod Black which is suppose to be a semi gloss black with gloss black hockey stripe. That would definitley give it that raw look!

Mike

Hi guys, I know this is an old topic, but I'm new to the forum & just came across it.Hopefully I can explain what has gone on here & prevent anyone else having similar problems.
Once a car has been painted/lacquered it takes some time for the solvents in the thinners used to "outgas".The solvents evaporate through the layers of paint to the surface & disperse into the atmosphere. (that's why a fresh paintjob still "smells" even after a few weeks, it's the solvents evaporating). Now, it seems the guy lacquered the car (3 coats) & no doubt would have baked it,colour sanded it & re lacquered it again (another two coats) prior to final colour sanding.
What has occured here is that although the car has been baked in the low bake oven & to all intents & purposes seems hard to the touch, the paint is still "out gassing" & will continue to do so for a few weeks.The solvents from the first paintjob won't have fully outgassed & subsequently they've been "trapped" between the first & second paintjobs. Once trapped they will show up as small white dots in the paint as you try to colour sand.
Had the painter applied all 5 clearcoats in one hit, it's more than likely this problem wouldn't have occured. However,assuming it's a 2K lacquer that is used, any more than 5 coats of lacquer used, will start to create it's own problems. Too high a build thickness of paint/lacquer will cause the same problems. Because 2K paints are dried chemically (catalyst used) you'll find that the surface of the paint fully cures & "traps" the solvents in the paint underneath it, as the solvents cannot evaporate through a high/thick build of paint quickly enough to reach the surface before the surface cures fully.Another problem you'll come across with too thick a paint is that as it "cures"it shrinks somewhat, & can in certain circumstances crack or pull out of tight edges.
If you want to add a high build of paint/lacquer to your car, then paint it & leave it for a good few weeks before recoating it again, in doing this you'll even be able to colour sand through the second lacquer job to the first & still be able to cut & polish without seeing the "edge" between the two paint jobs. HTH..........Nigel

ps you guessed,..... I've had my own custom paintshop for 26 years & have taught in auto colleges, oh yeah & I live in Britain & I'm currently putting together a '69 Z28. :)

Thanks for the info! The only time he did the clear in 2 sessions was the first time. All the others were 5 coats in succession. But re-doing this thing so many times in such a short period, even with baking in a booth was going to cause issues anyway.


I'm just now back to the point of re-painting it myself. All the mockup work has been done.

Jody

Are you really using lacquer Jody?

EvilZ, do you use lacquer?

No, we haven't been able to get lacquer here for many years. I am using Sikkens on the new paint job, this last effort was Dupont.

Jody

Best of luck with the new paintjob. Sometimes it really is best to let a multi- layer paintjob airdry without baking. People think that a baked finish is the be all & end all, but the reality is that bake ovens are really only best for volume throughput in the bodyshop. Even when baked, it's really only the surface that is fully cured, it's a misconception to think it's through hardened.Look forward to seeing the finished car.

if you or any of the other Lateral-g members want advice about paint or bodywork issues I'd be more than happy to help. :thumbsup:

Hi, I think the translation between Britain & America got a bit lost there. Over here we call clear "lacquer". Hope that clears up the confusion.

Jody, we use a lot of Sikkens over here, is it Autocryl you use?

I get ya, :thumbsup: .

Great to have you here. Paintwork can be very scary and there's a lot of misinformation floating around. Anyone who's painted their own car knows you guys earn your money. I've done 4 of mine and I do get a lot of satisfaction out of doing it myself, but I do dread all the work!

This is my first try with Sikkens. I'll have to go look at the can, not sure what it is! I normally use PPG DBU/DBC and once use Spies-Hecker. Also tried Transtar which did not impress me.

Jody

We used Sikkens on my Nova. It was a first time for us too. Seemed to work fine.

Hi Jody, if you're used to painting with PPG then you'll have no problems with Sikkens. Sikkens is a superior paint to Spies-Hecker & PPG in my opinion.Their silver basecoats spray out smoothly without the "mottled" effect that can occur with some other basecoats if you're not careful. You'll find that once mixed to the correct ratios the clear may "seem" a little thinner than other 2K paints, but it sprays on beautifully smooth, with very little surface " 'peel" & will colour sand & cut back easily. Sikkens really is the "new generation" of 2K paints compared to a lot of others. Best of luck.

sikkens
 

evil, there clear is thin?? most european clears are much thicker than american clears, you say it lays out nice, does is harden up real good after a few weeks?? or stay soft and wet sand and buff easily 1 year later?? i prefer a clear that will sand and buff easily for a week or so then harden up real nice, as this makes it very durable, duponts 7500/7600 stays soft and chips easily, it lays on nice but man does it chip and scratch easily, i am a fan of standox ms voc clear, it does just what i like
jake

Standox is some very nice product-the clear gets as hard as a rock after a few weeks very durable

Not to get off the subject but how do you keep a nice black paint job from getting all the swirls? I had a black car once and once you've waxed it and/or washed it you could see all the swirls in the paint when the sun hits it.

When I saw this car the sky opened and the angels sang "HHHHAAAAAAA"!!! :yes: I love black and I'm thinking about painting my 69 Camaro black but I'm concerned about how it looks 6 months later.

Any advise?

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft...reenheight=768

Hi Jake, I agree with you about having a good clear that is hard & durable & Sikkens will fill that criteria.The Sikkens clear does lay out very nicely with good flow charecteristics unlike some clears.It will colour sand & buff easily for up to 5-6 weeks depending on the paint film thickness & after that it will take on it's full cure & become more difficult to sand & buff. Obviously the more that is applied the longer the through hardening will take. Personally I would try to avoid spraying too many coats of ANY clear, as you will get problems with the paint not fully through hardening & will remain soft, especially on a hot day where the paint will try to "re-float" itself. One way to make a paint through harden quicker is to sand the surface within 16 hours of it being painted, ie colour sand prior to buffing. Leave it like this (open coat) for a few days & then buff it as normal. This sanding "opens up" the paint surface that has fully cured & allows the solvents to evaporate throught the paint easier & quicker. You'll find that once the surface has been buffed it will remain very glossy without the need to re-buff at a later stage.

If you look at my original posting I use the words "seem a little thinner" . This is not to imply it doesn't have good "build qualities" by being thin, but to say it doesn't have a very heavy "orange peel" texture to the paint surface.I've found, like you that Standox MS paint system is also very good. MS as you probably know stands for "Medium Solids" It has a higher solid content to the paint than normal paint (the paint is more dense) & will allow you to put a thicker paint film thickness on with each coat of paint applied.You'll find that any of the European MS system paints will seem thicker than the US basic 2K paint systems. Really, the thing with modern paints is that they're all pretty much the same nowadays (with some exceptions). They all have to perform to meet modern auto manufacturers finishes, so once you find a paint system that you like it's probably best to stick with it & in turn you'll get to learn the charecteriistics of the product & make each subsequent paintjob you do easier HTH............Nigel :)

Hi tndude, there could be a number of reasons why the swirls were there. Do you know if was a straight black or had it been clearcoated,was it a fresh paintjob,were the swirls from the cloth used to polish it or from the buffing machine, what wax did you use> Sorry for all of the questions but there could be a number of reasons for the swirls showing...............Nigel :_paranoid

Well it was a Honda Accord I drove in College. Bought the car new so it was clearcoated. Basically they appeared from just typical washing. Used a car wash mit (big square yellow/cream shaggy soft glove) to wash the car by hand with car wash soap. I noticed all the swirls one sunny day. I don't think the glove would do it but who knows, maybe it did.

Is this a common problem with black? Do you do certian things to ensure you don't have this problem when you maintain a black car?

Yeah it's a problem. If you look at black to long, you'll get a swirl mark, lol.

I just hand glaze mine, and it make a world of a difference. But once you wipe any dust off, small swirls are back.

Yeah, black can be a bitch to look after. As MarkM66 says, it's best to hand glaze after washing, never try to glaze/wax a black car without washing it first as any dirt/grit on the body will scratch the paint & will show up badly on black.Try to use as soft a cloth as possible, turning it frequently when wiping the glaze/wax off. Try to use a wax that doesn't have a cutting agent in it, I prefer to wax with Auto Glym products, their resin polishes are very good.Black cars are high maintenance, but look way cool. :cool:

Wow.. does this story sound familiar to me...


Sorry to hear and I feel your pain...

Hum, and here I thought catalized material dryed through chemical cross linking, not evaporation. I dont know why I thought the reason we eliminate more and more reducer from paints, clears and primers, some materials down to 10% or less, is because of a chemical dry. I know when I used to do laquer, and we used to add 1 1/2 gallons of reducer to 1 gallon of paint or clear, it was evaporation. I also thought the reason you could spot blend a laquer car 20 years later was because it was a evaporation dry, and since there was no cross linking, you could always revitalize and penetrate it with thinner. Oh well, I guess I was mistaken. I try to learn something new everyday. I'll bank this one.

im with frank on this one...... any problems with the reducer not evaporating would also tell me the wrong reducer is being used, not enough flash time, or some other kind of operator error.

as with almost all chemical reactions.... heat speeds up the process, so when the car is baked... you are speeding up the cure time but speeding up the chemical reaction. every tech sheet i ever read says to allow ample flash time before baking cycle.... so as to not trap any solvents.

as for most of the paint being equal nowadays....... i couldnt dissagree more. i try new products on a regular basis... and sometimes i find a product that suits my needs better.... maybe it goes on smoother... maybe it cures faster... maybe it polishes better. if they were all pretty much the same... then this wouldnt be the case. each "brand" has its own charateristics that may or may not work for the painter, shop conditions, etc. this is why a lot of guys will swear by a brand that a lot of other guys thinks is just crap. i personally am a fan of PPG, it fits my needs great, i have tried a few others... and always go back to PPG. this is just my personal choice.

.

frank and chris
 

i am with you guys, standox clears need to have at least a 5-10 min flash off, to get solvents out before baking, standox voc clear bakes for 30 mins at 140 panel temp, i have my booth set on 165 air temp to achieve 140 panel temp.
also the basecoats only need 15 mins flash off especially in a booth enviroment as they are air dry and any decent booth changes the air every 3-4 seconds, so there plenty of flash off happening, i have never needed to go more than 3 coats of clear, which were applied at one time.alot of guys using the thinner american clears will apply 2-3 coats, then block it flat with 1000 then re-clear 1-2 coats after 1-2 days to maintain the minimum film build to keep the uv protection there, as during the color sand the clear gets real thin

tnude, i am also a firm user of meguires hand glaze, or speed glaze applied by hand, when doing black i compound, the dual action clean (lighter paint safe polish) then go onto hand glaze to get rid of the nasty black swirls from wiping it down
jake

Ok, wow... The last I don't know how many replies are so over my head it's not even funny. No way in hell I'm painting my own car...... Yet.

Hi race rodz & 68pro touring454, how ya doing? it's good that fellow painters are able to give their hard earned knowledge to those that need it & hopefully help them to avoid problems with their own cars in the future. As you say, it seems a misconception by a lot of folk that 2K "cures" chemically & they aren't aware of the need to avoid solvent trapping.As to disagreeing with the comment regarding paints being pretty much the same,there are certainly some exceptions as I said, but the point I was trying to make was that on the whole they all have to meet the same critreria ie to be suitable to paint cars to OEM specs. As I said & I agree with you, once you find a product that suits you, stick with it. :)

im not a painter... i just pretend i know what im doing so i can charge lots of money to paint harleys :unibrow:

i never even heard of standox voc clear ... must be an east coast thing, somebody should send me some so i can try it out :D

Yeah, I really appreciate you guy's agreeing with him also. I am hoping that some day I may know enough to do this for a living too. For now I will just continue to sit in class and take notes before I attempt to do this professionally. There seems to be so much to learn. The part I do not understand is the 3 week outgas stuff. I also do not understand, Are you saying it is a chemical process or evaporation process Evil? I notice in your first introduction post you refer to a chemical drying process, then just above you say "it seems a misconception by a lot of folk that 2K "cures" chemically", which is confusing the hell out of me?

Hi sorry for any confusion,if you re read my posting you'll see that it says.... "it seems a misconception by a lot of folk that 2K cures chemically & they aren't aware of the need to avoid solvent trapping".....Yes it does "cure" chemically but also by evaporation & the point I was trying to make was that most people aren't aware of the fact that evaporation also takes place & care has to be taken not to trap solvents, people think it just "cures" & that's it! I guess it's just that painters use words in their everyday speak that can be taken outta context if used literally.I get a lot of this when I take college class. The easiest way to try to explain this is:-......... before the invention of 2K paints, all paints had to have a thinners in them to reduce the viscosity (thickness) enough to allow it to spray outta the gun. Once the paint was sprayed it would take a while for it to dry or "cure" (cure is a word used but it doesn't cure in the true sense of the word, it's a painters way of saying dry ;) ).The thinners in the paint would evaporate to the paint surface,which enabled the paint to dry. Drying times would vary dramatically between various products, so I'm unable to give specific times here.These paints are known as single pack type paints,cellulose, eurethane, lacquer or synthetic, all are air dry.

2k Paints or 2 pack paints, have a thinners & a catalyst, the catalyst speeds up the drying time dramatically, & the thinners is there to allow the paint to be sprayed outta the gun. Now this is where it can get confusing, yes, the catalyst does have a chemical interaction with the paint which allows the paint to dry quicker, but the solvents or chemicals in the catalyst need to evaporate.The thinners also interacts with the paint to allow it to dry (evaporation) so I guess if you really want to pick the bones out of it, both chemical & evaporation occur in the drying process not one on it's own. You can actually spray 2K without catalyst & it will airdry slowly & be able to be cut back & polished.The smell of a fresh paintjob is the chemicals/solvents evaporating & not the smell of the paint itself. Now to add more confusion,... the thinners you get to go into 2K comes in three types, slow standard & fast, which will speed up or slow down the drying time accordingly.Slow & standard can be used in a bake oven & the fast would be used for small blow ins or for a non bake situation where it dries in atmosphere without the addition of heat. So you see, the thinners affects the drying time also, which shows evaporation takes place

There are an awful lot of chemicals in the catalyst or hardener as it's known, the worst being Isocynates (cyanide based) which can kill you & cause cancer if you don't use proper air fed masks when spraying.Once the paint has been sprayed onto the panel the catalyst speeds up the drying time dramatically, but there are still solvents in the thinners & catalyst which need to be released to the paint surface. 2K paints surface harden very quickly & with the normal amount of paint sprayed ie 2-3 coats, there's never a problem with solvent entrapment (or outgassing as it's known professionally, solvents evaporating to the surface). It's only a problem if the solvents aren't given sufficient time between coats (flash off time) or if too much paint is applied. If this is the case, the solvents aren't able to get to the surface before the surface "cures/dries" & the solvents become trapped. When trapped they can be seen as very small white dots when looked at closely in the paint.With solid colour you'd be hard pressed to see them, but in a clear coat over a black or dark colour they become very visible.Obviously there's far more to it but hopefully I've explained the basics of what goes on. As I said, painters get into the habit of using words & phrases when talking to each other about what they're doing & if used literally can confuse others.I realise that maybe this stuff should have gone on the tech discussion pages, sorry 'bout that. Hope this has helped to answer your questions. :)

this is going nowhere........ when all else fails read the directions.