Congrats Mario...happy for ya!

DOOM now in BEASTMODE.

:underchair:

I received an "agreement" when I built my engine that was on their document. A contract constructed by an attorney is a whole different deal.

You have their car and I'm sure they sign some paperwork. You do business with integrity. I think it's important to remember that we aren't the only good guys on the planet. There are plenty left with integrity.

My thought was to buy the part from the builder up front and make sure they were delivered. In reflection, I'd rather pay for the parts and labor in increments. I agree, I wouldn't expect a builder to back an engine where I brought in parts and forced them on him.

I agree Mario, when you forget what got you there, that spells trouble.

Wow Mario, that is going to be some sick power..... Update your thread with the specs...

:eek:

That just made me feel so much better about the money I have dumped into my car. Thank you for that!

I'm holding yah to that one! Dinner is on me!:happy23:

Or he's a great engine builder and says to himself 'Well, this is a little different. But if the terms are reasonable this can still be a win-win situation'. :)

100% agree with Charley on this one.... Anyone that is busy -- doesn't need your business.

It's not enough money to bother with a contract in the first place. I know it sounds like a lot - but if you want to litigate - that's a lawyers fee for just reading the contract and writing a letter....

Do the right thing -- find a REPUTABLE guy that understands your concerns -- and is willing to address them in a reasonable way. It might not be 100% of what you want - but building this stuff NEVER is on time -- and things always have a way of changing. So you've got to be somewhat flexible.

I agree, I would take it offensive if I was approached with a contract, that you don't trust me first, I also feel your unsure to have to have a contract think it's just a bad deal and you should find someone your comfortable with. Like a prenup, I don't think she will hose me but just in case.

Give Mike Moran a call.

Again Todd well said!!!!
Glad I can help!!!!:lol:
Greg as I stated before I'm fully aware not everything goes according to plan things do happen. These guys are depending on other people to make things happen I live it every day. My deal with AP was a joke ! They had $4000.00 dollars down payment of my money and knew full well they wouldn't have to give it back. There very well versed in the CC laws. I believe if my money was in some type of account waiting for them to collect when I received my trans I would of went through a lot less BS lies. I'll bet you they would of told me about the shut down to build transmissions for the OE'S had they not had my $4000.00 dollars! I think at the end of the day if the money is sitting waiting you'll get a lot more honesty! If I have a car waiting for a part that's holding me up from collecting XXX amount of dollars I'm calling all over the planet to find it so I can get paid! If I had that money up front I wouldn't sweat it as much my bills are paid.
He was contacted

Someone posted earlier about your contract possibly being an indicator of you being a "difficult" or "unreasonable" customer. Let me assure you: At 40 Large for a motor, you have purchased the right to be difficult and demanding. if that scares off an engine builder, consider it a gift.

For 40K(or now 51K) I'd sure as hell want some sort of signed agreement. That's a large chunk of change to a lot of us, and sometimes it's not just about the money, it's about the schedule. I don't blame you one bit Mario, especially after what you've been through already. Seems like there are an increasing number of businesses out there nowadays that will make inaccurate claims about their ability to do the job at certain price/time in order to get your project and money in their doors and then they just do whatever they want after they get you on board. I think a reasonable agreement with some penalties/bonuses would force some better initial accuracy and accountability, especially in a situation with that sum of money. Building these cars is difficult enough without having to deal with those VERY frustrating situations where someone takes your money and then just does whatever the hell they want and when they want. Some of us aren't rich enough or have the flexibility to easily deal with that.

Fortunately for me, my shortblock builder Jason Pettis delivered nearly on time and at the exact price quoted, and he was extremely detailed about the work and parts that would be involved. He allowed me to supply my own parts, although I told him that if any of the parts were not to his satisfaction, he could swap them out and I'd just return mine, which we did on a few. Not at all to the scale of your build, but still a pleasant experience for me and I'd definitely recommend him.

Good luck with your sick engine build and please keep us updated. :thumbsup:

In other aspects of life...for example, building an addition on to your house for $40k....would you hire someone without a pretty clear set of expectations, and details that was put in writing?...

Most people would say...hell no...so why is that different in the car world?

There is a big difference in having a plan in writing, with expectations, time frame, payment schedule etc vs a legal binding contract.

I think having it all written out makes both parties clear on what the plan is....it serves as a reference if there are any "issues" that come up when one party refutes what the agreed plan was....vs it all being remembered from some phone conversation and people not remembering the same thing...

if I was dropping $40-50k on a motor, I would want a written plan...not a 20 page legal contract....

NASA has been known to be slow about things sometimes!

Seriously though, what the heck kind of engine cost $40k?! Am I just to used to building my own engines for $12k??

A key word here that I have not seen used is "customary'. It is important.

Ned brought up a GC doing a remodel for $40k. Yes you are going to get a contract with that (some better and tighter than others of course).

But what individual motor customer ever gets a contract? I contend that it is CUSTOMARY that you do not get contracts when purchasing motors, but you do when purchasing remodels. It isn't about the money here, it is about what is customary.

And if a $40k motor earns you the right to one, why doesn't a $12k or 15k motor get one? Money should not be the deciding factor on who gets and who doesn't get a contract.

We, the Pro-touring'ites, must lead this hobby out of the dark ages, legally speaking. I sense this is our burden...

I've got a name that fits.

'LegalZoom.'

Could be gold!

Things become "customary" because things evolve due to necessity..... Even big deals and big business used to be sealed with a handshake and your "word".... That used to be customary for everything

The bigger the $$ involved, the more both parties need to protect themselves from any "issues"

No doubt you will get pushback and defensive attitudes.... It's not the "norm"...

It's a double sided issue...... If you are truly a trustworthy company/business that stands by your word, then why not put it in writing.....but it's insulting to be asked... The customer doesn't trust you.... But if you got nothing to hide, then why not?.... If you can't trust my word, then screw you, take your business somewhere else....

But there are enough precedents out there by companies screwing over customers...... Any every one of them was trusted by the customer... With a handshake and their "word"

I personally wouldn't hand over $40k to anyone without some written plan.... Maybe not a full, legal contract, but not just a verbal conversation.... If nothing else, a written plan about paying in installments as progress is made

Customary, Good point. Would said builder hire remodelers to renovate his shop without a contract or signed proposal or some sort of "binding document"? Especially if they didn't know them from Adam?? Even if they had a good reputation on doing a "good job"?? Quite possibly not.

And sorry Greg, but I'd say that to "most" of us on here (and in the real world), 40k is a large sum of cash for a portion of a toy. No disrespect meant, but seriously!!

Jimmy I don't think Greg meant it that way.

We had a former vendor on the board that has taken people for a lot of money . Some of what I've been reading is pretty scary . Guys have been taken for thousands of dollars and will never see that money again! For me I would of never believed it I never had a bad deal with this vendor ever. I have to tell you guys my car has been in the planning stages for over ten years. It sat in my storage lot for 6 years. I put money away every chance I had in my ''car fund'' so I could build this car the way I wanted. Trust me I'm not Charley or GW. I saved for over ten years to make this happen. I have been very lucky with most of my vendors up until this point. I could have been taken by this vendor just as easy as the rest of these guys he had almost $20,000,00 of my money at one time! We put our trust in these vendors and hand them over big money. But I have to say, seeing what's going on today with the world and the economy I'm trusting no one!!!! I could of been one of the guys taken buy this vendor very easily. I'm protecting myself from here on out. Let me tell you, any of these vendors can get into financial trouble at anytime and I'm not giving them my hard earned dollars so they can take it and bail them selves out! :soapbox:

Okay one last thing and I'm done. One thing I learned early on is you will always have ups and downs in your business . The comment that gets my blood boiling is '' (INSERT HERE) we don't need your business" Well I learned you can't stay on the top forever and you WILL come down! So remember the ''difficult'' guy you told to take a hike you'll wish you had him! Ask me how I know this!!!:topic:

I can certainly understand your position and I would want to protect my hard-earned cash as well.
Personally, I would try to stay as local as possible so that I could stop by and check on progress from time to time. That would also give me a chance to watch for warning signs around the shop (supplies running out, fewer jobs coming in, less employees, phones not ringing, etc.). Communication, presence, and a written plan sound like the best way to protect yourself...

I have no money...Pissed it all away on cars. Weld has all the money. Don't get lulled into a false sense of security because you get a builder to sign a contract. A bad guy will sign whatever you want and still steal your money. Then you can spend a fortune with attorneys chasing him and end up with nothing anyway because he has nothing. The bad guys just want your money and will deal with stalling and double talking you later.

Well said..

Come on Charley we know better! You still have that ''secret'' compartment ! The contract thing isn't likely going to happen for that reason alone. I am going to deal local so I can keep tabs on progress. I started talking to Steve Morris and it looks like he'll be the guy. His payment structure is actually quite good it works perfect for both parties. So will see.

I sent my motor and parts to Casey and 4 weeks later he called and said the motor was ready for $1,000.00 less then he quoted me. Trust me that doesn't happen "EVER".

Then when we looking for help I sent him and e-mail and within an hour I had a response with a part number and even a link to get the part.

Casey and the guys at Wegner are Number 1 in my book.

and good news for you Mario they are only about 2 hours from us.

The only time a contract is worth anything, is in a court of law. If you get there, you already lost.

I agree with local services - continuous personal communication always helps to ease the stress during large projects.

Less? A vendor asked for less money than quoted? Surely this is a typo!
Or, maybe miracles do happen....just not to me.

$51K for an engine? Your crazy!!
Dude have you ever seen a twin turbo big block in a 69 camaro. It gets cramped in the engine compartment. Hey if you want a trailer queen, its your car. I think you should take half that and Get a MAST LSX with a supercharger on it. Then take the rest of the money and read the INVESTING 102 thread.

Good move dealing local, we both know how long distance deals can be. I hope it comes in on schedule so as not to hold you up.

Hey Mario,

Steve is a great choice, this guy has a killer resume when it comes to building/machining boosted engines. What a nice guy and his family, had him over for christmas dinner, long story short his dad has been dating my sister for years and came out to jersey for the holidays. Extrmeley nice people, being a car guy I felt like I had engine building royality at my house. Good luck and Im looking forward to watching the progress.

Rich

I didn't think he meant it in a "pocket change to me" kind of way, but I know quite a few people personally that do have that attitude and it really "turns off" the average Joe and helps feed the class warfare mentality. And I'd hate for some on here to feel that way about him because Greg seems like the real deal (nice guy without "that" attitude) from what I see on here day in and day out.
Hopefully no disrespect taken cause none was intended. :topic:

Good call on the local guy!

Greg Weld would give you the shirt off his back if you needed it! I have first hand knowledge of this . Not to long ago we had a situation with a member that wasn't happy with his car that was delivered and Greg offered pay for the re repair to make it right . And this was no small amount of money either let me tell ya! So for anyone new to this board Greg Weld is one of the most stand up guys you will ever want to meet you would be hard pressed to find a finer gentlman. My dad always said ''If someone has to tell you what they have they have nothing just watch out for the quit guy in the corner saying nothing'' ..:D :topic:

Maybe so, but I've been taught some expensive lessons along the way, sometimes the price of admission isn't worth it. I didn't say you wouldn't get an estimated delivery date. I just wouldn't make any guarantees on dates there are too many outside vendors that have to be worked with that don't meet their commitments that we have no control over. I'll play devils advocate and have you look at it from my side, I have 2 half built engines sitting in the shop right now that have been there for 18 months because the guy ran out of money so I'm sitting on $50K worth of parts that are good for nothing but these 2 engines because everything is so specialized when you build an engine like you're talking about. I'm not trying to start a pissing contest I'm just trying to give you some perspective from the builders point of view, we get taken of advantage of as well. :cheers:

I was going to bring that point up as well, Tim. How many half finished car projects are out there at various shops? We all know many I am sure...

No one seems to discuss businesses doing checks on their customers. Customers often seem to think businesses should fall over each other to take their hard earned money. Not so much. It's a 2 way street out there folks, especially when you start talking big dollars... :innocent:

No one is saying this applies to you Mario, but it is a very valid point in the context of this conversation.

If you went back and looked, Mario said he would setup an account with the money in it so the builder would know he is getting the money. A good quote, then purchase order, and po acknowledgment is all that is needed to make a good deal that also happens to be a contract. As I said in previous posts, my company commits to delivery dates on million dollar equipment and we rely on vendors for everything. It is possible with the proper procedures in place for using the right vendor. The best engine builder ever may not always be a good business person. Happens all the time in many industries.

You are correct, most people think it is all the vendors job in keeping them happy. It is absolutely a two way street. The vendor should do everything they say they will and the customer reciprocate with pay the agreed amount in time agreed to. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Nope no Typo here and it was a significant amount.

Truth!! I've sent "customers" to my competition before because some people are just made for each other!! LOL!!:catfight:

Okay so I will chime in here.

During the day I sell packaging. Here are some of the rules we follow for our customer and if we don't do it right we are fined.

Label must be applied to the shipping ctn 1 1/4" from the bottom of the ctn & 1" from the side of the ctn. If the label is not applied to the ctn correctly you are fined $100.00. Then you are charged a handling fee per box and the product is shipped back to us at our expense. All of these fee's will be automatically be deducted from any checks.

If there is a overshippment it is considered a gift and you will not be paid for it.

If there is an undershipment and no notification was given you are once again fined.

If you are a day late - you are fined

If you are two day's early - you are fined

So the automotive world seems to be the only place that there are no contracts or in most cases an agreement and I believe the blame is on all parties involved Builder, Vendors and the Vendors Suppliers. The engine builder shouldn't have to worry that the guy making the custom pistons will deliver in two weeks vs six weeks.

I will leave the builders name out but tell a quick story. The builder was waiting for a supercharger for months and Sema was getting close. Finally he got frustrated and called a US Vendor received a supercharger the very next day (yes it was shipped NDA). That being said pick the right vendor and there is a good chance you are going to get you parts as promised and when promised.

The entire top half of my LS build came from Edelbrocks. I picked up the phone. Told them my goals and they spec'd the parts I would need and shipped everything the same day my Credit Card was charged.

Then I called Casey at Wegner Automotive. Said here is what I have and what I would like done and he made a few suggestions. He send me a estimate via email ( including powdercoating ) and I sent him my motor and all of my parts.

I received an E-mail that they received the parts

I received an E-mail that the block had been powdercoated

I received an E-mail that they ordered some ARP Bolts

Then I recieved an E-mail that the Motor was complete and he had a truck heading to Nickey Chevy and my Motor would be on the truck and I could pick it up there to save shipping cost.

I was never worried about anything because there was constant communication and I received it in a Timely manor.

I know zilch about the specs of Mario's engine but some of the boosted stuff we do is so specialized that there's only 1 vendor that makes the part you need so you're stuck with them for better or for worse and they don't just keep this stuff on the shelf, it's made to order.

What good does the contract, po,....whatever you want to call it do for me? If the guy runs out of money taking him to court and losing more money is a waste of time and money since he has no money to pay. From my point of view there's nothing but negatives with a contract because it could be a sign of someone that is going to use the contract to avoid payment or sue you later. We just finished an engine that the guy micro managed and changed his mind for what he wanted at least 5 times during the build so we had to go back and redo some things more then once, he would call everyday and sometimes multiple times a day, I didn't even charge him on some of the redo stuff or all the phone time and then he bitches about the labor bill at the end and wants to negotiate it, we made no money on the engine, he was not happy, so no one won,
. If I had a contract I would likely still be sitting on yet another engine someone didn't want to or couldn't pay for and could be in court trying to defend myself for doing what the guy asked for. I'm not saying Mario would do this but there are people who would so imho it's best to just avoid the potential headache.