Even the old west wasn't the old west. Despite the Hollywood image and romantic stories to the contrary, most old west towns had lower per capita murder rates than any modern city.

I am not so sure that George Zimmerman did it by the book because I don't have all the facts. I am pretty sure the police officers investigating this incident don't have all the facts either because one party is dead. I am not for or against George Zimmerman just as I am not for or against Trayvon Martin. It is very likely that Mr. Zimmerman approached this kid and simply asked him a question and Trayvon attacked him without provocation. If George Zimmerman felt his life was in danger than he was certainly justified in defending himself. However, with out knowing all the facts it is just as likely that Mr. Zimmerman approached Trayvon and asked him the same question while opening is jacket and displaying a firearm in his waistband. If that was the case than Trayvon Martin would have be justified in attacking George Zimmerman to prevent him from pulling a gun which he perceived as a threat to his life.

The only reason I reference this case in my previous post is because I believe this. As a private citizen of the United States you have the right to make a citizen's arrest when you believe a crime is being committed. As a private citizen, you have the right to arm yourself to effect that arrest. However, you do not have the right to stop random people you believe are "suspicious". When you confront people for no other reason except that they are "suspicious" bad things can happen and in the this case bad things did happen. The reason I say Mr. Zimmerman used his gun wrong is not because of the fact that he felt he was defending his life with it. It is because I believe he used is gun as tool to feed his courage. I could be 100% wrong, but my gut tells me that if Mr. Zimmerman was not carrying a gun he never would have approached Trayvon Martin, a person he described in his own words as "much bigger than him and intimidating looking".

You don't have to pull your gun out and brandish it or shoot it to be using it wrong. If you believe you are responsible enough to carry a firearm in public and you allow that firearm to give you the courage to confront a situation you would not confront with out it, then you are using it wrong.

I am not (and don't want to) debating how that event played out. But most everyone believes the ending to be as I described, which is what I was referring to. In my state you'd have to wait to that point to pull your gun. How they got to that point is certainly up for debate.

No debate from me Jody.:cheers: But in the famous words of Tom Cruise "It doesn't matter what I believe, it only matters what I can prove." And you have to give me some credit on the fact that I was able to implement a quote from A Few Good Men into this thread.

I wouldnt know the truth or if I did I probably couldn't handle the truth. Splitting hairs, how about justified shoots? Could be a lot of shovel ready killings and not quite murder.

Meanwhile back in The ol US of A.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...-shooting?lite

Get it together people!
:bang:

What a shame! That's exactly my point, Greg's right, we don't have the way to defend ourselves, at least not in a fair way. But at the same time, we are not ready to carry a gun. We are not trained, nor capable to handle a gun.

What is your idea of a person who is "trained and capable"?

The reality is anyone can own/purchase a gun regardless if they are a responsible person or not. I support the Constitution but too many idiots own guns and soon the government will be forced to do something about it which is really sad. This is not they case of a few bad apples but too too many bad apples.
I made a point of living in Los Angeles in the late 80's/90's. I was in high school back then and went to many "high school" parties and witnessed way too many guns in the possession of teenagers. I am sorry but there are way too many guns in the streets of America. People make the point of owning weapons to defend themselves. I think of where these weapons end up and it is crazy.

A: You're not mexMan
B: You didn't answer the question
C: The 80's are gone
D: You live is Cali which has huge problems on numerous levels
E: The remainder of the country is very different and diverse.

Back up your statements/views with facts. Should be easy enough....right?

Screw it...

No not anyone can own a gun legally. Morons like you don't seem to get that or want to believe it. Nor do all lawfully purchased firearms end up the hands of criminals at some point. You obviously spend way to much time watching the news and believing whatever they tell you. Read a book and educate your self on something and stop being sheep. Seriously why should a good person, who has no criminal record ever be stopped from owning anything they have earned? Are the good people responsible enough?

You don't support the 2nd amendment, which is obvious by your statement and I'm betting your the type that say's "it's for hunting". Stop trying to be the in between, none confrontational type. Pick a side and please stay off of mine. Trying reading the book "The 5000 year leap". Perhaps it will shed some light on how our country is designed and why. Follow up with "Still the Best Hope". Perhaps you'll learn why you, you're mind set and those like you are so messed up and flat out stupid. You and those like you, cause more problems than you will ever solve.

Don't like criminals having guns? How about supporting harsh laws that actually punish criminals? We spend more money on taking care of criminals than we should. Whatever happened to a speedy trial and a fair punishment? This means voting people into office who will do what's right and that means YOU have to be involved, holding your elected officials feet to the fire. Way to many people are uninvolved and figure someone else will take care of it while they doing nothing but complain about it. Try giving a **** and while you're at it, stop expecting someone else to resolve you're problems. How about you take responsibility for your own actions. Don't count on anyone or anything except your self. Have a little pride and while your at it, teach your children the same lesson and the importance of them passing it along to their children. It's called Integrity and Morals. Or are you going to pout and be the type that needs a trophy for every little league thing in life he signed up for?

Way to many people have the 'what's in it for me' attitude these days. They refuse to believe they are anything but victims and want someone to take care of them in one way or another...or in every way for that matter. "The Government" isn't the answer. It's been shown time and time again that many of our elected officials break the very laws they vote for. Do you honestly believe that they are looking out for you and are the best group to decided who can and can't have a gun...or anything else? The gun ranges and classes in my area are in crazy high demand now a days. More than ever people are learning to be better with and better at using their firearm. Bad apples? You demonize gun owns the way you put it, but the truth is that far more people are seeking education on the subject than you care to believe. Why? Because they are tired of a system that doesn't deliver. To many changes have been made...just to make change and everyone, except the scumbags, are getting taken advantage of. People are starting to realize that they need to be more self sufficient and protect what's theirs.

Did you ever stop to think that IF the amount of crime was low that people wouldn't feel the need to arm themselves in order to be protected? Sure would be nice to get back to the days when you didn't have to lock your doors, but that's not reality anymore. Don't blame those who own guns for being the problem. That's just stupid. Blame those who have created laws and a system that has breed dead beats, criminals, moochers. Blame those who cry victim at every turn. Blame those who are uninvolved.

Stop casting stones and don't be sheep. It's called REALITY!

:flag2: :flag2: :flag2: :flag2: :yes:
:flag2: :flag2: :flag2: :flag2: :thankyou:

Funny thing about the way "someone" counts "guns".... which also makes it seem that every other American is walking around with two pistols on their hip - and an AR15 style rifle in a sling.


Many of my friends - including me - have multiple guns... but a couple might be shot guns for bird hunting... a couple .22's for plinking... maybe a deer/elk caliber rifle... and finally maybe a .22 or similar small caliber hand gun - and maybe a .45 or similar pistol for "protection". So out of all the gun count... one might be considered a defensive weapon (all of them are - but what I'm saying is in the owners eyes - there might be one that was bought for that purpose).

Many people might 6/8/10 or more "guns".... they're collectors. I just bought a shot gun and when the salesperson asked me about my collection (figuring this was just another wall hanger)... he was appalled to learn that I was going to USE IT...to shoot skeet! When you go to websites that sell high end collector guns --- the big sales pitch is that it's "never been fired"!

I think the no gun prohibitionists read the numbers and think they're all 9MM Glocks stuck in the waistbands of teenagers in East Covina --- and full auto AR15's.

The great gun debate can and will go on forever. It is one of the most heated and polarizing topics in the Nation. It always has been and always will be. There are no easy answers and no easy solutions, but you are seriously out of line with this post. If it was written be anyone other than a moderator it would have been deleted and the thread locked. Just because someone does not agree with your views they are a moron? The man said he supports the Constitution but somehow you can tell from his seven written sentences that he does not support the 2nd Amendment. SuperSport is right there are far to many idiots who "legally" own guns. You have the nerve to tell this guy to go read some books so he can learn how stupid he is!!! I've got a good read for you. Why don't you calm down and re-read your own post. If you have the INTEGRITY and MORALS you speak of, than perhaps your next post should be an apology to SuperSport. You have the audacity to tell this man to "stop casting stones" when you yourself threw every stone you could gather. You are either the world's biggest hypocrite or the world's best psychiatrist because for you to be able to tell every thing about a man's character in seven sentences is amazing. We all share different views, and most of us have the ability to accept that sometimes we must agree to disagree. It's a little thing called RESPECT, something you failed to mention.

Hey Curtis, not everyone is going to agree with you, not everyone is going to see what you see. It doesn't make them a moron and it doesn't make them stupid. It just makes it REALITY!!!!

The great gun debate doesn't need to go on for ever, but sadly to many people want to tell everyone else how they should live their lives. Problem is that it's GOOD people who are being attacked by people who have good intentions. The attackers (and yes that's how I view them) are seriously miss guided in their views of what the cause of the problems is and in how to solve it. The true lack of respect comes into play when they are proven to be wrong and lash out in anger and try to make supporters look stupid. There are easy answers, but no one wants to seriously talk about them. Doing so would open a huge can of worms and it would prove that the way things have been setup (by them) has failed.

The man claims to support the constitution yet posts this link http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...-shooting?lite as proof that to many idiots legally own guns. In the article it says that this has been happening for years and is usually aimed at one person. Ummm...that's a gang related, criminal act. Which means ILLEGAL guns. Bottom line is, this isn't new News. It's only become more popular to show/print as the debate has heated up. If Supersport supports the constitution as he claims, then he should be able to see that. IF he supports the constitution then he should be angry that it's being unfairly attacked by people who don't understand it. His view is one of those who takes the media headlines as 100% truth and forms his opinion after reading the ticker or hearing a two minute story/debate. IF he supported the constitution he would educate himself on the matter and become involved. Do I expect him to have the exact same view as me? No. However, I do expect him to do more than spout off comments like that. There are to many idiots allowed to drive (probably far more than those who own guns) and yet no one is saying crap about that. Yeah...it's that simple. And just so you know....I am and will always be the first one to call the idiot with a gun out and help correct his ways. I've gone after two very good friends and I wasn't nice about it. They both have taken classes and are now safe, responsible shooters/gun owners. Do I like making my friends feel like children? No, but I care enough to be involved and to help them. If more people where active in their community, things would be very different. My point? If you want a positive change, become involved!!

I figured someone would throw the Moderator card. Hey, I am still a member here and YES, I can be moderated. I have not crossed the line, though I have walked right up to it. Not the normal kind of posting you see from me...is it.

Supersport is casting stones and adding fuel to the fire. It was done in a very casual way for sure. So either he's attacking and trying to be the friendly guy about it, or he's uneducated on the subject. The later would make anyone a moron in my opinion. I simply cast those stones back and I wasn't all P.C. about it. I will not write an apology to Supersport. I stand behind my post and I will continue to view him as I do (on this subject) until he does something to show me otherwise. Don't take that to mean that I think he is a bad person, or that I would do harm to him. He's welcome into my home, like any other Lateral-G member. We have a difference of opinion and as heated as that may get, I will not view him as a bad person. A start would be to post up some statisticians (that are backed up and legit) that show how Idiot owned Legal guns are are causing the problem or contributing to it. Making a statement and then posting something that is unrelated (other than it has guns in it's content) isn't helping.

If someone want's respect then they should know better than to open their mouth and spew garbage they know nothing about and can't back up. I don't expect everyone to have the same view as me and no person who is educated on a subject is stupid or a moron. If a person is looking for meaningful discussion on a subject or to learn I will always throw my full support behind that....regardless of what their view is in the end.

yeah!! plus the Republic of California rules!! :action-smiley-027:

In a whole year?
That is a quiet night my Mexician standards.
Of the world’s 50 most violent cities, 40 are in Latin America; 14 are in Brazil, 12 are in Mexico and five are in Colombia. Mexico lays claim to five of the top 10 urban areas

OMG! You are kidding right?
I do support the Constitution and I believe it should not messed with by politicians that are trying to make a name for themselves. Of course we should keep the right to bear arms. My point is this. The irresponsible gun owners are going to ruin it for the responsible gun owners. Do I own a gun? No, do I have immediate family that owns guns yes. Have I gone to a gun range and shot weapons before, yes. Am I someone that thinks gun owners need to be held accountable when their weapons are used in crimes oh, YES I DO! Too many weapons end up in the wrong hands and this is not an issue it seems. If you want to own a gun then you better be responsible for that weapon. A Moron (a word you used) gun owner bought a gun for a 5 year old who then shot and killed his 2 year old sister. Pretty stupid huh. I would never allow that to happen so I, as a responsible person, choose not to own a gun. I would feel responsible if I owned a gun had it stolen and then it was used to kill someone.
People seem to think only Mexico has a gun problem but not us Americans. I think this is hilarious. I also think it is hilarious if you think California has problems unlike the rest of the country. Google how many kids get killed every year in this country and see if kids only get killed in California.
I think when you have loved ones that are killed by guns in the wrong hands to will see gun control in a different light. I have family that are police officers and the stories I hear from are crazy. Too many weapons in the wrong hands. But I still think only responsible people should be allowed to own guns.
If, you cant account for all your weapons then all your weapons should be taken away because you are a Moron gun owner.
You will soon see certain guns banned by your politicians. Just wait.
Peace!

.

O.k. this is good.
Let me ask you this, is there a gun problem in America?
When Americans get killed every day do you think that is an o.k. thing, a non issue? Or do you believe only people in South American countries get killed?
Believe me our politicians are coming for your weapons. Americans like sheep wil be more than happy to turn them in when this happens.
I was talking with a gun owner at work and asked him if the president asked him to turn in his guns or face fines or jail time, he answered he would turn them in. I was laughing.

Gun owners think EVERYONE should own guns (I know not felons or people with mental issues).
Gun control people think no one should own weapons.

Its black or white.

I apologize for being neither and grey.

But stay tuned it will happen. At least I am not afraid to say we Americans have an issue that needs attention for the safety of all Americans. Sandy Hook or someone losing their baby should never happen in this country.

I believe this too, but its going to take people control. A sick person made this happen. A sick person that by law should not have been able to own a firearm.

In 2008 I witnessed many non gun enthusiast buying up guns just due to the Obama craze. Some of these are the people that should worry about. Many of the will not take ownership seriously. Im willing to bet most of those guns are loaded and sitting behind a door or is a sock drawer.

The anti's seriously believe that if they remove all the guns, crimes involving guns will stop. The logic is not there.

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x...ckGunLogic.jpg

I'm not only a gun owner, but I hold an FFL, I turn down buyers all the time... simply because I dont think they should own a firearm. granted I'm "small time" gun smith/dealer.... and every sale is a big deal to the bottom line... BUT its my duty... not as a responsible dealer.... but as a human to do my part if I don't think someone should own a firearm. I do have (and use) the right to refuse service to anybody

I fall into the gray area too... where just because somebody can legally own a weapon.... doesnt really mean they should

I see the bigger problem being everyone trying to fix a system with a one size fits all patch.... and that simply is not the how system works. I dont have all the answers.. I can only simply do what I can do. I dont see the system changing anytime soon.

so you are taking it upon yourself to infringe on a possible legal purchaser the right to own a gun? interesting. Is this based on racial profiling or gut feeling?

even if they pass a background check as put forth as a guide line by the federal government they should not have the right to purchase? ok. this is getting better.

Chicago, according to our commander and chief has the strictest gun laws in the country.

they are not alone, take a closer look at how parts of the east coast are after storm sandy hit. its still a mess.

sure, but was this the case? how about a 21 year old, wearing saggy jeans, cap on backwards and just hopped out of a lowered honda civic with a pitbull in the passenger seat? If he passes a federal background check do you think he should be able to make a purchase. Keep in mind that car theives don't go to dealerships to buy cars...most of the time. Just trying to make sense of the logic.

I know you see what im getting at.

thats just wrong.....you paid 6K pes for a 38, whats the conversion? 4 bucks?.....LOL down town oakland you can buy one out of a back of a van for $300 US.

where the hell do yo live? lol

:animated_bye_bye_em

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

loco cie