Is your Suit Un-Zipped? That is not proper attire if it is!

Bill,

I absolutely agree with your concerns. But, there are pro-touring events where the car must be registered and driven to the event (making it a street car) where is must run 150+ mph on the road course to be competitive -- no real safety equipment "required". Couple that with the fact that a bunch of stock street cars (Z06, ZR1, Viper, GTR) are runiing the same speeds on the same tracks. Competition with 650 H.P. stockers is probably driving some of the horsepower race. A third issue, and my biggest concern is the fabricated suspensions and drive trains using a bunch of inferior "offshore" built parts that are being subjected to tremendous loads, especially in fairly heavy pro-touring cars. I built my streetable car with three rule books in my hand to cover things like roll cage, fuel cell, fire supression, firewalls, etc. I guess that makes it a race car. At the very least I get chided about it not being pro-touring, but I think that's because it doesn't have a radio and air. Since we're not running for points or dollars, I would like to be able to attend fast track days without the hassle of annual and/or comprehensive (and sometimes capricious) event tech inspections, often based on ever-changing rules. I still think we need checks and balances on quality/adaquacy of parts, tires, and at least roll-over, fire, and restraint protection. It's a fine line.

Pappy

The safety comments added here have been good. But there is a huge difference in the "vibe" or feel at a RTTC type event vs an average track day. Both good and bad.

The good is so many cool like minded people and cars to hang out with.

The bad (relative to safety) is that by having a "winner" at a pro-touring event you increase the focus on competition and away from just having fun. At an average track day there is no "winner" and many of the folks won't even have paid extra for the transponder to even know their times. They just want to go out and have fun on a track. Yeah it is still dangerous and there can be very serious accidents but I don't see people pushing nearly as hard either.

You know, that is a GREAT point. At the NASA HPDE events, first off we are separated into run groups with other cars with our same experience level and we have instructors in the cars with us...but beyond that, there are no times kept.

We are all out there just driving...and the instructors in the car make sure that we stay within our abilities. Never once have I felt like I needed to go faster...for any reason other than I just wanted to. And I still had a complete blast.

Might be something to think about for future events...

I think you will find that my idea of rules fit right into this post. I think there is room for a touch of all things mentioned. What you are going to see with my rule changes is my attempt to accommodate as many elements you just mentioned as possible, with SAFETY and fun being the focus and reasoning for those rules, not just copy and paste someone else or some other sanctioning bodies rules. The very nature of our build style means Protouring cars, even if they were all built alike, do not really fit into any group that is presently out there. As I recall, we were and still are streetcars that run on a track from time to time, not racecars with tags. Some may have moved over that line and I have a plan for that too. The KEY here is this, I have a line in the sand now and it is very easy to determine what side of that line your car fits. Giving that and not much more right now, know that EVERYONE soon will know the rules and what the new game is. They will simply have to see what those divisions are and either choose where they fit, or if they think maybe they don't fit any and decide not to play anymore in the ASCS sandbox. That is certainly the risk I will take, given the importance to fix this. There are so many other options out there, no one program fits all needs, I am good with that.
Regardless of the emails and calls I have gotten today, trust me, I am not a MADMAN yet!!! lol

Thanks for taking a stand Bill. The vast majority of people who have done real racing are 100% behind you.

Real racing is dangerous enough without doing it with the equivalent of 1965 safety equipment, and the comprises of being street legal.

I have been saying for years that it is cheaper, faster, and safer to do your racing in a real race car instead of a street car.

The very definition of Pro-Touring is that you take an old muscle car and improve the power, handeling and braking to the point it compares with modern sports cars. I think it is pretty safe to say we have been doing that almost without a second thought.

Thankfully Ron and Bill are turning the attention to the overlooked subject of building safety into our cars. I too feel that the safety equipment of our cars needs some serious attention and I am following the safety threads closely to make sure my car is safe. But I would like to see this safety discussion go one step further and include the subject of Driver Training on the level of a Bondurant or Skip Barber.

I would like to see events which include some serious performance Driver Training classes offered by experienced instructiors where the students could take the class driving their personal vehicle. I doubt anyone would argue the benefit of a Bonderant or Barber level driving class, but not everyone can easily afford the price. I think offering a performance Driving School event would attract a huge number of participants.

Bill I fully understand what you are saying.

For people looking for a "class/school" take a look at www.1010thsmotorsports.com

We talk a lot about putting in cone chicanes and taking steps to keep speeds down in an attempt to keep things safer, as I think we should, but the one thing I'm more curious about is how well labelled the tracks are in regard to braking zones. None of the events I've attended have had any cones laid out for braking distances, which is something you tend to find at most other track events and every driving school I've ever attended. In my opinion every one of the pro touring events should have clear braking distance indicators because the majority of drivers have never driven the track and won't be able to memorize each corner after 5 parade laps. There are points and bragging rights associated with setting a fast time. Everyone wants to get the most out of their car that they feel they're capable of. I've never seen anyone drive without making a mistake at some point during the weekend, and that goes back to why safety has been a big concern, but I say there is more to track safety than just safety equipment and we should work creating the safest overall environment that provides the largest margin for error so that drivers hopefully never even come close to having to rely on their safety equipment.

Great post Matt, I think the braking zone labeling idea is something that should have been done a long time ago at most of these big time events. I don't have much road course experience and I would certainly feel a lot better about it if each turn was labeled. Memorizing the track is something I have a hard enough time doing in a simulator, let alone on a real course at speed.

On the other hand, Bill I think you have made a great point about the dangers of the big courses and your series is wise to be ahead of the curve. This new USCA is honestly going to be pushing it's luck allowing regular guys to show up with no rollcage, regular factory belts, stock seats and just say have at it.. :bang: It just makes no sense.

Will they be running the full Lemans course at Daytona? Anybody know, because that is going to be quite wicked heading into the Tri-Oval.

Bill… I think it’s great that you and Ron have raised the issue of safety for pro-touring cars running on road courses. I started out driving my pro-touring car on road courses by joining a local sports car club, and then entering HPDE (high performance driver education) events. The car club that I joined requires that first time drivers complete 2 hours of classroom training before being allowed to drive on the road course… then they are limited to 85 MPH on the track.

Also... they are required to have a certified instructor ride along for the first couple of events. When a driver has gained experience, and prove they can drive safely on the track, then they are issued a certificate of completion for driver education and allowed to “Solo” on the road course. I have been running with this club for several years and have never seen anyone get hurt or have a bad accident. I would recommend for those interested to get on the track, to seek out a local sports car club and run some HPDE events to get the basics.

Most of the guys that are regulars at the HPDE events typically have installed 4 point roll bars, and 5 point seat belts at a minimum, and wear extra protective gear. I plan to make more safety improvements on my car before next season from what I have learned here recently. Thanks again for raising the safety awareness level.

How to put on a safe event is a tough issue for sure. It seems like there might need to be different classes based on car set up, safety features, and driver experience. It's a great sport and I hope to see it continue to grow. I look forward to seeing what you come up with for rules.

:cheers:

Bill, I'm glad to see you stand up and do the right thing even if it does not put money in your pocket. I have been saying this for a while that Pro-touring was going to end up being a feeder circuit into real racing arenas. All these cars are getting lighter and lighter and people are getting more and more horsepower. But when the rulebook will allow you to race a track at race speeds in a long sleeve shirt and an open face helmet at some point this is going to haunt someone.

The guys with AC and power windows are the first to point out a guy that has the same horsepower and 300 less lbs as that is not a street car. Well the guy drove it here on the highway and I guess he is just tougher then you because he says he does not need AC. But it is still a street car, just like a rigid chopper is still a motorcycle even if it is hard to drive.

These events need to be fun. Most people are not going to be able to compete with some of these people who compete in these events. Some are national autocross champions a few times over. Not to say the next champion cannot be born, but some of these guys and girls are really really good, Let's be realistic.

Something to consider is doing events that are designed for different skill levels and you cannot move up until you master the lower slower events and have a capable car.

As an example I have been looking at doing some desert racing with a friend and customer of mine. I went and helped pit crew a few weeks ago and had a great time and would love to just jump right in and race the Best In The Desert races or Baja 1000 right off but first off you have to have a safe and capable car like this.

http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/t...212_215730.jpg

But just like Pro-touring in order to do that your going to take all the family function out of it. Or in this case the street car out of it. I still want to be able to take it to the sand and use it with my family for fun on the weekends. But the springs are set up for speed through the whoopps which makes it no fun unless your hauling ass. Plus climbing over the door bars and straping into 5 point harness's gets old but you have to wear it or risk banging your head on the roll cage and getting metal plates in your head like Kenny Davis. So like Greg said then you end up having multiple cars one for going down the highway and one for Going warp speed at Laguna. The problem is most of us cannot afford both, Heck we can barely afford one.

I think so great ideas would be to also just get out of our street cars and spend some weekends driving other stuff. Like setting up large groups that go to go kart schools, or other events where the car is provided and the environment is controlled. Use these things to gain skills to move up the ladder. You will never be a good driver if you can only drive one thing. You have to learn to adapt.

Matt, I think RTTC is at unique location and that's why there's no brake markers (not that there shouldn't be). I've been to every other ASCS event and it's been at a real road course except RTTH which has no road course part of the event so there's been brake markers.

I figured some of them had to, but I wasn't sure. RTTC didn't, which surprised me a little, but I figured it was a bit of an anomaly since it was set up on an old air field. What surprised me though was that all of the cones around the 2.3 mile track at Spring Mountain were removed when we ran Optima. If you were to go there on any given day they would have all of the "helper" reference points set up unless they were running part of their level three advanced class. I certainly hope that won't be the norm at the USCA events but I had to start wondering.