One thing you guys have to realize is that not everyone can afford to build a $100,000+ car. Some of us have to cut costs when possible.

Obviously, if budget is not a concern or you're building a high end build, you buy the best of everything.

Some people are running $500 headers with no clearance issues, and it's a matter of figuring out what engine/frame mounts and adapter plates they used to fit.

Some of us are pulling LS motors out of junkyard cars and stuffing them in our classics, others are ordering $10,000+ crate motors and letting other people do the work for them. Just food for thought. Don't hate on the people that are budget conscious.

^^^ this.

Going back to my ground clearance issues with the Dynatech, I looked at some old photos of Ridetech's Velocity, which the Dynatech headers were designed around, and it showed the motor mounts flipped around (the metal tab is at the bottom-similar to Speedtech mount). I'll try flipping the motor mounts around this weekend and report back.

I don't think anyone is hating. obviously budget is the biggest issue to consider on these projects. but IMO you do have to pick where to spend your money, and if ground clearance is imports(the theme of this thread) then you probably have to spend some money. why spend 500.00 on a header that doesn't fit, then spend a 1000.00 to fix the problem when you could have spent the 1000. in the first place.

I subscribe to your way of thinking 67rally, the market has seen quite a few new parts for 1st-gen LS swaps come out over the last year that gives more choices than ever to each user, depending on what his goals/budget require. Many of these parts offer improved quality (through CAD/FEA design and lean manufacturing) and more affordable prices compared to parts of the past and present opportunities for installing parts that are designed to work as a system as opposed to a mixed bag of parts from various manufacturers. Times are good for 1st-gen swappers in the planning stages of their projects or getting ready to make parts purchases.

That's a valid point Blake. I guess the point of the thread is really "is there a 500 header that fits right?" I already figured out that the $200 eBay headers don't fit. At least someone else can learn from that mistake...

FWIW, I went through the same thought process when I bought my control arms. I did Hotchkis springs front and rear, and looked at their UCA's and LCA's first. Then I saw the SpeedTech one's were about 20% less in price, seemed to be just as good quality and even included a steering stop on the LCA. I opted for the SpeedTech one's based on both quality and value. Every cruise/show I go to people ask about them. I saved a couple hundred bucks, and put it towards the next upgrade.

toddoky, the new Hooker stuff looks great and if I were just starting the swap I'd probably go this route. I even advised a friend doing the swap to look into your complete kit, and he bought it.

But as I stated in my original post on page 1:
I can't justify throwing out a practically brand new Holley oil pan, BMR trans x-member, ES motor mounts, Dingo sliders, etc.

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I'm willing to put the time and effort into finding a decent fitting header given my existing components.

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I completely understand where you're at 67rally, I was merely supporting your point that not everyone is looking for a $1,000 set of headers and that better fitting headers, engine mounts and crossmembers are now available for this swap than were available even just a year ago. If I was in your position I would be looking to find a work-around just as you are.

67Rally how high are you mounts now?

No pics yet but the shop sent me some measurements for you. They measured from the block flange to the center of the trans mount bolt which is 22-3/16".

It's somewhere between 4 1/8" to 4 1/4" from the subframe to the engine block.

I can't get a perfect measurement right now because I can't open my hood very far. The nose of my Camaro is parked under a wall mounted tire rack, and I don't have my new rear end fully installed, so I'm kind of stuck until I can get back to rolling the car out far enough to open the hood again.

But...The Dirty Dingo sliders are .500" thick, and the closest measurement I could get was between 3.625-3.75" for the combined height of the frame mounts & motor mounts.

I'm using the tall & narrow '69 Z28/350 frame mounts (3945507/8) and the tall & narrow Energy Suspension motor mounts (3.1117G).

X1000

I didn't think you were hating or anything but in defense of my previous post:

I'm a manufacturing engineer so I've got a little bit experience in the manufacturability/costing of manufactured goods and I know where you are coming from. However; the discrepancy in price is just too much.

What's wrong is that the manufacturers of the "cheap" headers; who obviously have a pricing advantage due to labor and/or volume, don't seem to want to bother to spend a day test fitting and another week making a design and fixture change to make them fit better. If they did, we would only be seeing $1K headers in the magazine builds because no one else would need to buy them. Of course some people would buy the expensive ones for the same reason we buy expensive stuff now, for perceived quality or for a brand. In this case, I; and I'm sure many others, just want something that works.

Fretde

FWIW, I'm into my current headers for $187.10 (brand new including shipping) plus another $4.95 for some copper RTV sealant. I already had the sledge hammer to beat the tubes into submission, and I installed them myself.

I was just looking to see if any of the mid-price stuff might work with the mounts/x-member I already have. I could always see if a machine shop can mill the flanges to seal better on the heads, and ground clearance is fine.

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This thread isn't about whether $900-1200 is too much for a nice set of stainless steel headers. It's about whether or not there is a cheaper alternative that fits.

Sorry about my part in the hijack. I'm still quite interested in this too and whatever you do decide to do, I'd like to see how it turns out.

Hey 67Rally, are you open to go with a set of mid-lengths or are you set on long tubes only? There are new mid-length headers out for this swap application from Hooker as well that may fit the bill for you. If you want any specific info on them or photos of their fitment, just send me a PM and I'd be glad to help you out.

No worries, I think we're both looking for the same thing.

I'm looking for long tubes. I made decent power with my current set, and I like the look.

I'm still tempted to borrow a set of your new headers from a friend and mock them up with my mounts/oil pan and see what they look like.

What is the fore/aft position of your engine with your current mounts? The location obtained with the new Hooker mount kit puts the machined front cover surface of an LS engine about 1/4" back from the front wall of the engine crossmember...as long as you are in that same basic position +/- 1/4" the headers will clear your steering box with no problems. I have other fitment photos to reference dimensions from, so just let me know if you need to see anything from my files.

I'm not locked into an engine position. I'm using Dirty Dingo sliders and an adjustable trans x-member so I can adjust the engine fore/aft 2-3".

Very good. How far off the top of the engine crossmember is the bottom of your block then (the machined oil pan mounting surface)? The new Hooker mounts put that surface 1-5/8" off the top of the engine crossmember. Knowing that dimension of your combination I can better help you determine if your time would be well spent test fitting your friend's new Hooker headers on your car to see if they fit.

I won't be able to get a measurement for a couple of days, but I'll post it here probably Sunday afternoon.

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A couple days late, but I measure 2 1/2" from the engine crossmember to bottom of the block where the oil pan mounts to.

That's a disparity of 1-1/8" between where you are at with your set-up and the height at which the new Hooker brackets locate the engine. I would guess the new Hooker headers might have interference with the floor on your car since there is only about 1" of clearance between the header collectors and the floor when used with the Hooker mount kit.

My calculator says 7/8" of difference, but I agree that might be too close.

Yeah, I realized my math error after I sending my reply...reminder to self not to attempt math in my head before having my morning cup of coffee. With the actual difference being 7/8", the fitment of the new Hooker headers on your car will be damn close for sure, but may just be worth borrowing the set from your friend to try in out as it may solve your problem.

Well, after a few weeks of researching, emailing, PM'ing, three different threads on three different sites...I had narrowed it down between the Dynatech's and the Doug's 3337's. I ruled out the Texas Speed because there just wasn't enough info on them, and I wasn't crazy about the design.

The guys from Dynatech were great with trying to help, but it's the same design as the Texas Speed stuff (still wondering if Texas Speed copied them, or if Dynatech is making their headers).

So I ordered a set of the Doug's 3337's (jwcarguy's pics helped push me to the final decision). My only hesitation was that they look identical to the ebay brand headers that I was looking to get rid of. In fact, when I first got them, I thought they were identical, but there are subtle differences in the tube design (i.e. the guys in China didn't do a perfect job on the knockoff). I installed them this weekend. I ended up moving my engine and transmission about 3/4" back towards the firewall and I'm very happy with the clearance.

ebay Header passenger side:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...psfbc31852.jpg

Doug's 3337 passenger side:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...pse64ad6b2.jpg

ebay Header driver side:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...ps51333cc9.jpg

Doug's 3337 driver side:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...ps58e7083a.jpg

Doug's clearance:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...psda6a2802.jpg

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...psa452e967.jpg

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...pscd8a0cea.jpg

Doug's driver side ground clearance:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...psf0b1cb99.jpg

Doug's passenger side ground clearance:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...psd00310ef.jpg

About 4" of clearance on passenger side, and 4.5" on driver side:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...ps615dbca3.jpg

that looks pretty good, nice fitment.

What engine mounts again?

LOL, I was just going back through the thread to see if I had posted it here.

I'm using the tall & narrow '69 Z28/350 frame mounts (3945507/8) and the tall & narrow Energy Suspension motor mounts (3.1117G). Along with the Dirty Dingo Sliders, and a BMR adjustable T56 trans crossmember.

Awesome stuff!

Glad you found something that fit so nice for you!

Can you do me a favor and see if you can get an accurate measurement to a fixed point for me?

Maybe from the front left bolt on the steering box to a point on the engine; like a header bolt or something? I'd like to see where my engine is sitting in relation to yours.

Really, this is what all of us need from the manufacturers. Instead of telling us that this will fit with such and such mounts (which isn't always guaranteed) they should have measurements of where the engine should be sitting (for their headers) that we can use to compare. The best measurements would probably be off of the subframe or at least something bolted to it.

I'm still waiting on some parts to be powder coated before I put the subframe I re-manufactured back under my car but after that I should be needing to order headers really quick.

That's great that something came together for you finally 67rally, seems to work real well for you.

obeerwan- that's a good point you made and in the case of an LS swap 1st-gen F-body/3rd-gen Nova like 67rally has the new Hooker engine mounting brackets for that application position the machined front surface of the engine block 1/2" back from the front wall of the primary engine crossmember. That equates to the typical distance between the back of the passenger side cylinder head and the firewall being 1-1/2". Maybe this info will help others starting this swap.

I'll try to find a good reference point tomorrow and post back with some measurements.

I installed the driver's side header by removing the engine frame mount bolt and jacking the engine up on that side. When I went to lower the engine after the first attempt, the #5 header was just about to hit the pitman arm before the engine was all the way down. I moved the engine back about an 1" and then #3 was within 1/32" of the PS box. I found a happy medium somewhere in between (I know I said about 3/4", but I didn't actually measure).

The key for me was having an adjustable set of adapter plates (Dingo sliders), along with an adjustable trans x-member.

Thanks for the info guys, I appreciate it.

Hopefully in a week or two I'll be putting my engine in my subframe again and seeing where the measurements are. I have to...ehem..."adjust" the frame a bit for the low mount alternator as well so it's probably important that I get a set of headers fairly quickly after the initial check so I can get that going.

Worst-case, I suppose I can just get headers and machine some new mount plates to make the placement work for the headers instead of trying to get headers to work for my mounting location. After all, the plates are just pieces of flat stock with 3 counter-sunk through holes and 3 tapped holes in them anyway. Not like they are difficult to make. I'd just rather I use "standard" modified components, if that makes sense....LOL

Here's the best I can do. It's a little tight in places, and it seems there's always a hose or a wire loom in the way. Lot's of pics, hopefully this helps someone...

Distance from front of stock LQ9 timing chain cover to rear edge of front subframe crossmember (roughly 6 5/8"):
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...ps74c9715c.jpg



Distance from flat bottom surface rear crossmember of front subframe (confused?) to the machined engine block surface where oil pan bolts up (roughly 6"):
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...psc189f1ab.jpg

This is where I took the above measurement from:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...psa75018a9.jpg




Distance from firewall to rear edge of driver's side cylinder head (2 1/16"):
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...psdaf3fd93.jpg



Top view looking down, distance from firewall to rear edge of valley cover plate on passenger side (3 5/16"):
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...psc340b2e6.jpg



Distance from front flat surface of Holley LS Retrofit Oil Pan 302-1 to rear edge of front subframe crossmember (6 3/4"):
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...psdffdacc6.jpg

This is where I took the above measurement from:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...ps4f19733a.jpg

^ Thanks for these detailed pics!

I think I have read so much that I'm getting confused with all the headers, I was thinking of going with Hooker headers on my 67 Camaro or maybe even speedtech, Does anybody have any thoughts of those two, Pros or cons of the two? There is about $150 or so differant in price. One is stainless and one is ceramic coated, I dont know what the best is there. I would think Ceramic would be cooler but not sure. Im ready to order some but still at a lose.

Which Hooker headers are you referring to, the new ones or the ones that have been on the market for the past 5 years? If you are referring to the new Hooker 1st-gen parts released this past December, then you have the choice of mid-length or long-tube headers constructed in mild steel or 304ss. The new Hooker headers are also part of a complete swap system that includes engine mounts, transmission crossmembers, exhaust systems and an oil pan that were all designed at the same time to optimize the fitment in your car and the compatibility of all the components.

I assume the new hooker headers, I'm not sure( do they carry the same part number? I have the oil pan and motor mounts now. What would be preferred, 304ss or just mild steel ceramic coated? They both look good, what's the advantage of one over the other?

If you are using the 2288HKR/2289HKR headers, 302-1 Holley oil pan and flat-style LS swap plates then you have the older design Hooker/Holley parts and will be subjected to the same trade-offs as all the other LS swap parts on the market that were designed around the same time. All the new Hooker parts (engine mounts, transmission crossmembers, headers and exhaust systems)and the new Holley 302-2 oil pan were designed together at the same time go give you benefits you cannot get with the mixed parts from multiple manufacturers approach.

Old thread, but any chance of getting a measurement of the distancr between collectors (center to center)

And how are they holding up? Ill be removingmy arh headers that fit lake crap on tuesday and need a replacement that fits. The speedtech 2" is what i want but i cant swallow the price. The 2" is 500 more than a 1 3/4.