Okay -- 32 -- whatever --- The point was more that 10* at idle isn't what I'd be aiming for.


And yes FLASHIE --- small blocks can run down in the 32 and 34 range if the parts are right - he's probably running close to zero quinch - ported heads - race gas....

The dinosaur --- not so much.

Now --- back up til about 1970.... fire up an Ed Pink Hemi Nitro motor -- with 70* in it.... oh yeah baby....

I'm idling at 1200 also Greg. You might be right on the bushing but I'm running along the lines of "going to run it as we tuned it".

I am going to take a second look at my old distributor though and make sure on the bushing. I never remember changing the bushing in it but in the 8 years of running the same distributor I may have forgot.

When we dyno'd I remember the distributor acting like it was locked out......not sure how to explain that one.

Well --- many people fuss around with A:F ratios trying to find power -- but the real power comes from getting the timing RIGHT....


I just checked with Ed Pink and he said we used to run around 60+ish degrees not the 70 I misstated above. Obviously Nitro burns a little slower than our race gas. LOL


Did you guys know that the headers in a fuel car can create a 1000 pounds of downforce? Why don't we just run our headers out the bottom and point 'em up in the air... HAHAHAHAHA that would be so bitchin!!!

Joe asked me why you didn't have the advance locked in. I replied, Its a street car

Run some Bull Horns

I don't know what dyno tuning has to do with a distributor bushing? Most of these guys worry about one thing, wide open throttle, power, and air/fuel. As long as the exhaust temps are in the ball park, the tuning is left for the chassis.

You are getting away with that small bushing because you idle it at 1200. If you dropped it down to 900-1000, you may foul plugs. Also, you may be getting a bit of advance at that rpm. I'm not sure but the timing light would be the moment of truth.

I was going to ask that queston but you answered it HAHAHAHA

I'm pretty sure the most important thing when dyno tuning would be to get the timing set where the engine runs most efficient. From there I think its getting your AFR's where they should be.

I agree that at 1200 I'm probably getting the advance that I need.

Just checked my old distributor. though I couldn't tell by color anymore, by size I'm running the blue bushing.

The rate of "advance" added in a mechanical distributor is controlled by the advance springs.... it has little to do with idle speed -- provided the springs installed are controlling the weights.

The timing is SET for initial using the timing light to tell you where the timing is AT that particular RPMs... So unless you're loping so badly that your motor is adding and then subtracting timing - it should be fairly stable. If not - you should be looking for other adjustments to smooth out the issue.

I always check the actual timing curve being used - with a dial back light - and I actually map the timing in 500 rpm increments until ALL the timing is in. It's easy to map it with a pad of paper and a pencil and a dial back light that will read RPM's... you just screw the idle up from idle - 500 rpms - dial the light back til you see 0 on the balancer - write that result down... and add 500 rpms and repeat the process. Until you've reached your maximum timing degrees.

Since the timing should be all in around 2500 or 3000 rpms -- that's not hurting a thing to spin the motor for the brief amount to make this map. Now you can sit back and know exactly what your advance curve looks like - what your initial is - and what the total is. Once you know that what you EXPECTED for total timing is what you thought --- now you can subtract your bushing size -- in your case 21* -- and that better match up with the number you're seeing on the balancer or the digital readout on the dial back. Then you're done.

Now -- if you want to mess with timing -- you can just change the spring combo... and you should be able to be secure in the knowledge that the distributors inner workings are okay, and know that the advance is working as it should be.

Changing the curve can have profound affects. Want to see -- just put back the two garage door springs that come stock on all MSD distributors... talk about turning a good motor into a pig.... OH BUDDY!

If I remember right it was full in at 2K

Among other things to go over we'll have to recheck it before Sonoma Vince. Let me know what day works best for you.

Going to be all in at 2000 RPMS - with a blue stop bushing? Then you've got to run the TWO light silver springs....

Or I could throw the black bushing in and shoot for 2500 rpm :headscratch:

We'll see

STOP BUSHINGS only control the AMOUNT OF ADVANCE the advance weights can ADD....


So depending on which color stop bushing you have --- really controls your INITIAL timing.... the initial -- whatever that is set at --- and the color bushing you use determines how much timing will be added in total.

SO ===

Black bushing allows for 18* to be added to whatever number you set the idle (initial) timing at. If you set that at 10* --- and added the 18* --- your total would only be 28*..... So if you wanted to be total timing at 32* you subtract the 18* for that particular bushing (the black) and set your initial.... i.e., 32 total is the desired timing --- then 14 initial is what you would be at idle.


Blue bushing is a 21* bushing --- so then you could set initial at 11* to get to your 32* total


And so on.


The SPRINGS and their various combinations -- are what CONTROL the RATE of the timing advance.... So when and how quickly you can get to your max advance (total timing).


So two light silver springs with the black stop bushing gets you in near 2000 rpms

One light blue and one light silver - gets you all in around 2500 rpms


and so on.


There's a chart - that can be found here -- showing the various spring combos' and where -- with what bushing choice -- your timing curve is going to be AS SHOWN ON PAGE 3 --- so just scroll down....


https://www.msdignition.com/uploaded...structions.pdf



If it was my motor --- I'd be running the BLACK bushing and either the two light silvers or the light silver/light blue combo. I'd set the initial timing to 14*
Adjust the idle to where I want it - double check my timing and go drive it.
Initial timing being "off" won't hurt a thing --- it's the total timing and how fast it gets there that can cause "pinging" or pre-ingniton.

Too much timing can cause bucking (like a miss) at light loads at freeway cruising... much like a lean miss... but at 32 or 34 total and NO vacuum advance - you're not going to be too far off.

Tried blue springs/blue bushing.......car hated it. Went to silver springs and she was as crisp as ever.
Took her out for a ride and I'm still getting the hesitation under load. Looked for a broken valve spring but couldn't find one.
Replacing MSD box tomorrow. :hairpullout:

I could have missed this earlier in the thread, but have you checked your fuel filter? Sure sounds like a fuel related issue to me.

Thanks Scott, going to be checking that tomorrow also. I pulled the line off on the carb side of the filter a couple of weeks ago and fuel kept dumping through the fuel filter freely and what appeared to be a healthy flow so I assumed it was good but going to pull it out tomorrow if its not the MSD box.

I'm sure it's better than the distributor cap.


:lmao:

I put the two light silvers on today (all in at 2,500) and bumped the initial to 15* with the 21* advance stop and my motor loved it. Idle is set at 1,000.

As mentioned fuel filter or maybe pump failing?

Nothing an LS swap won't cure and he has plenty of time to git 'er done!

We'll find out about the filter tomorrow Sieg. I don't think it is cause there was a lot of fuel dumping out of the filter end when I disconnected it but I'll pull it off and take a gander at it.
Pump could be it also but I already have an extra MSD box laying around so I'll try that before I need to spend on a fuel pump.

Yup....tomorrow and two weekends is plenty of time :RunninDog:

You should just put a saddle on your ass so I can keep riding it.




You know -- the new fuels do like to eat the old style rubber parts.... so the diaphragm in the fuel pump --- or any rubber lengths in the fuel system -- maybe a short length from the tank to a hard line or? Sometime they APPEAR fine from the outside but are shot on the insides...

ASSume all the spark plug wires have been looked at.... where they might be fine at low rpms and power ranges until you put the boots to it. A quick check I've done is to wait until dark -- pull into the garage with all the lights off - and fire it up and open the hood... and look carefully for any arcing on headers - or a cracked boot to head - or ??

Plugs in good order?? Again they might be able to light off light loads but can't light the richer A/F ratios when the throttle is banged....

Valve adjustment? ASSume you're running solids....

Need to check diaphragm in pump, secondary accelerator pump diaphragm has been replaced, spark plug wires have been replaced with new, should probably check fuel line from filter to carb.

Spark plugs are new and looks like I can lean her out a couple sizes, solid roller......valves were adjusted two track days ago.......that's on the to do list under "Before you spend money do this" :rules:

Fuel pump pick up?

MSD boxes aren't exactly known as bullet-proof reliable so definitely can't rule that out. But typically don't they just have a major coronary and go to the grave?

.........new fuel cell installed.......and this problem occurred?

Car ran great at Sonoma after all the recent changes Sieg. When I brought her home from Sonoma she sat in the trailor for a couple of days and then I took her to a local shop for a rear gear change.
Noticed issue after the shop made the rear gear change.

What gasoline is in it ? Can it be crap gas ?

What gear ratio before and after?

I was running out of fuel trying to figure this out so I picked up 5 gallons of 114 at Sonoma last week and through it in yesterday. We'll see.

3.42 to 3.73

just to rule it out try swapping out that RPM chip for a higher one.

Did you move your MSD ground wire? Run it direct from the battery.

It's starting to look more and more like Charlie nailed it. I ran the car today with the new batch of fuel till almost empty and it started feeling like it was getting better the longer I drove it. I get on it now and it doesn't start to hesitate/pop until the upper rpm range as opposed to when it would hesitate at initial throttle engagement. Seriously thinking I had a batch of crap gas in there at this point.

Race gas doesn't go bad like the sh!t at the pumps....


114 is a little strong.... Charley and I run 110. Gotta be careful with fuels -- more isn't always better. Ask Dave.


114 is for very high compression ratios like 14:1 and real high (8000) RPMS.... I don't think you're running that high of compression or need the extra protection from detonation at this level... LOL

Pump Gas Versus Race Gas
Octane rating is defined as the resistance to detonation a fuel has in an internal-combustion engine. The higher the number, the more resistance it has. That is why engines with higher compression require higher-octane fuel. As a result of its resistance to detonation, it has a resistance to burn as well. This resistance to burn is a non-issue in motors tuned to the edge; the edge being just before detonation occurs. When a pump-gas engine is subjected to a higher-octane race fuel, it may result in a decrease in power from an incomplete burn.

Read more: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...#ixzz37OfIyWcx


Conclusion
Filling your tank with high-octane fuel, when your engine runs fine with 91 octane, is a waste of money. In this engine's case, minimal gains were achieved after a dozen dyno tests were made, and would be too small to notice at the track. The higher 118-octane fuel made less power than both the 110 and 91 octane. It would be interesting next time to see what effects the fuel has on a boosted engine. We would expect to see more impressive changes there.

Read more: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...#ixzz37Og87p1u

The last 5 gallons I put in the car prior to this last fill was from a local station in Placerville. He was down to the bottom of the barrel with 110 and had to tilt the barrel to get me 5 gallons.

BTW, my engine builder is the one that recommended 114 and my compression is 14:1.

He doesn't know what he's talking about. Unless it's tuned and dyno'd on 114... the whole gas and octane thing is so misunderstood.


I think Dave's engine builder is the one that talked him into blending race gas with his pump gas.... that was good for about a day's worth. LOL

I agree, stick with what you know works.


Without knowing how long that tank was sitting or if it was refilled. You have no idea what to expect.

I repeat......my motor is 14:1

Get some sleep Vince.....your not making any sense