Mike, When was the last time you saw a 1978 Camaro on the road (that wasn't yours). I live in So Cal, and I have only seen a couple in 3 years I have been there. BUT, when I go to the car shows in particular recently Hot August nights, tons and tons of 67-69 Camaros. Literally ZERO 1974-81 Camaros and only 5 or so 70-73s and I was there all week.

In my opinion 45-60K first gen Camaro would be a good seller. Most people don't understand 14" rotors or adjustable shocks much less ever drive the car to that level. Some at this site here understand the value but if they are here chances are they are building something already. Many of us can buy the $1500 part here or there over years..others here can just write a check.
You want the 50 something guy returning to his glory days with extra :G-Dub: who needs instant gratification.

1) Decent paint,
2) Nice wheels with correct stance
3) mini tub is worth it imo. They just look way cooler. Sorry but a 275 on a Camaro in back just is not as cool as a 315/335 set up.
4) Nice thumping cam is likely a good choice also.

I still think many would sell in the above range even with old school SBC with EFI.

Badazz28, I am in Southern Ca. also and I think the smog laws are why you don't see that era of Camaro on the road. It is just a hassle and no one wants to stick with 170 HP V8 came with.

Rodger,

I agree I have also seen some good deals out there but we must remember many are slapped together turn and burn cars.

One thing I know is that if I would have put the same amount of time/money that I put into my chevelle into a first gen Camaro I could sell it for far more $$. Building a PT car will pigeon hole you. My car is fully caged no a/c or heater. No radio and frankly not ideal cruiser for those reasons. It is LS3 powered and I could drive it anywhere and trust it but it is not relaxing. I could change it back but why don't you buy it and work your quick magic since I have little time for it.
[IMG]http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...TTC3ElToro.jpg[/IMG]

Tom! Long time no see brother!!

Yeah that bad boy may have a full cage, no a/c, heater or radio... but it's a lot of fun!! Some of the best autocross lap at RTTC2!!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Thanks Curtis. I have been watching your round two build and it looks good:thumbsup:

Your awesome 68 Chevelle is really built to a narrow market. Same with my 67 Camaro a few years ago. It will be a great, reliable car for someone who wants to up their game in the road coarse, auto cross events. But the MAJORITY of people want AC and a soft interior. You could probably get a good amount more if it was a 70 Chevelle, just reality. I also have what might be the most rust free solid 1969 Chevelle I picked up a few years ago. I keep thinking it Could be a money maker, bolt on suspension, and a really basic car, that just looks really good, but I'm not convinced that is a sure thing. That would be a better project for me to sell as a project.

A few weeks ago I found a Craigslist ad for 1967 camaro that the seller said was rust free. I called him and he said it was and he was firm on the price of 5k for the body with doors. So one Sunday morning I drove 2 hours out to the desert and sure enough it was 100% rust free. I bought it and the C-10 truck parked next to it. 20 minutes after loading up and heading home I got a call from one of our great customers and he asked if the car was a nice as it was supposed to be, I said maybe better. He bought the car on the right then now wants me to try and get and LT1 from Chevrolet. I got a left over subframe from a customer to make it a roller and she is in dry storage down the street now until her time comes. You have to buy the deals when you find them.

If the money is made on the buy I also think its made in the game plan to sell. If you over build the car, your just pissing away the gain to give away to the next owner. You have to figure out the best way to sell the car.

I'm still not convinced mini tubs justify the expense to install on a 60k or less car.

I just sold the Nova. I had it a Russo Steel in Jan and the bidding stalled at about 34,000. well I can tell you THAT AIN"T ENOUGH. it was one of those things I didn't need to sell it but wanted to do something else. it didn't sell. I had it advertised on ebay for a while at 75,000( that was about the sum of the parts at my cost) thought that was fair.... had a couple calls. then a guy from Sydney AU called said he wanted the car wired over a deposit and a week later came to drive it and paid the balance and drove it to LA and put it on a boat, I ended up at 65,000. lower than I thought it was worth, but after 3 different offers at about the same price ( I turned down 2 of them) I figured that was what the market was in that car.

I am certainly NOT the guy to ask "what is it worth" I am not the car selling guy. I hate buying them and don't often sell them. just not my gig some guys seem to have hours to scan the classifieds and what not to find the deal. but then we have had some of those "DEAL" come into the shop, trust me NO DEAL. in my opinion they are cheap for a reason, their junk, or on the slim chance you catch someone who needs to bail you can maybe get a deal, that won't be me lol

From the years on this site and the amount of feedback I've had in that time, I would say being minitubbed is a very big selling point on a $60K protouring style car. I have seen cars without tubs that are very competitive at these events, and look and drive awesome. But IMO, if that's the price point you're looking at I think it'll be a mistake to not do a minitub.

I was at one time thinking of doing something similar on a smaller scale when I retire. My friend in the classic car business advised me to focus on 69 Camaros exclusively. They are the money makers (if there is money to be made). Not even 67 and 68.

Don

Minitubs are one of those things that if you can do it yourself, cost very little but raise the price considerably. The mini tub itself is relatively cheap... Lots of time and some inner tubs.

Also, consider all that needs to be changed to do a mini tub... rear end, suspension, tires/wheels, brakes... It's a hell of an investment.

My opinion is at $60K you expect to see the minitubs, and the work and cost to change it over if they're not done is an issue. Cheaper to do it initially so you're not buying duplicate tires/wheels/rear suspension, etc.

Personally - I'd rather read Investing 102 and put my money into dividend paying stocks that cash flow every quarter... they pay for my HOBBY which are what cars are. LOL

Yep, I think we are in agreement here :)

If I can buy a new ZL1 for $55k that does all these things, comes with a factory warranty, and can be serviced at any Chevy dealer anywhere, it would take one helluva nice 1st gen to beat the performance per dollar spent equation. What is the nostalgia of the 1st gen body worth over a late model? $10k, $20k, double the new price? If your selling a classic for more than a late model, you have already significantly narrowed your potential market, regardless of the options and performance involved.

I'll take any and all stock tips you've got!!

Buy good businesses and hold

If you had a 5th gen and 1st gen Camaro and each were purchased at the same price. The new ZL1 will depreciate at a much greater rate than a 1st gen Camaro.
That's what keeps me from buying a new Camaro.

I don't think "the hobby" is buying a new car.


And the more I think about the idea of trying to find a good "donor" -- build it - and then try to turn a profit on it... probably only really works for the home hobiest whose labor is free - working out of his "free" garage.

This is what I was considering. I would like to continue to wrench on cars when I retire and this seemed like something that might work. I don't need to make a huge profit. I just want to keep busy doing what I enjoy. Biggest hurdle so far is finding reasonably decent project cars. They are snapped up quickly in this part of the country.

Don

You will be lucky to get 35k for that ZL-1 next year.

I can understand your point, but I think the majority of the people here put a much greater premium on the "nostalgia" that you mention. I just don't think it's quantifiable like that.

I've got a first gen Camaro because it's my dream car - not because I can justify the expense over a new Z28.

... I'm listening...

Nobody said depreciation was a factor in this. However if it is, then what percentage of depreciate occurs when a stock 1st gen is highly modified with cut and weld changes that cannot be easily returned to stock? Does it depreciate, does it appreciate? Based on what I see on auction shows, the stock and resto-mod group seems will to pay appreciation. The highly modified jury is still 50/50.


Hobby is a very good point, but again, the original question was value placed on sale as a means of business so someone can make a living building cars they love and still feed their family. I'd love to make $100k a year building stuff like my own junk, but the odds of that happening are about the same as me becoming a rock star. The hobby means different things to different people, some of whom the owning and not necessarily the working is the hobby.

Which highlights exactly what I was trying to imply. As hobbiests, we build what moves us, what fuels our passion. If you try to build cars that can be resold you have to step back from that passion and look at what moves the market in broader strokes if you truly want to make a living selling modified cars.

How many guys on here have that passion, understand the mechanics of getting there, and are well heeled enough to drop $100k on a 1st gen? I'd guess that is a very narrow market segment. However, there is a very large group who perceive the nostalgia of the 1st gen, have a passion for it, like the pro-touring look, and want to be able to drive that same car anywhere like they would a late model. they do not require nth degree handling, nor are highly concerned with the mathematics to get there. To that segment, they will compare the features and capability of that classic against a late model. These are not the died in the wool, hard core hobbiest like u son here and they won't give a flying flip through a rolling donut hole how big the disc rotors are or how the geometry is corrected on the a-arms . These are the guys willing to go out and get a loan on a car for a toy and pay someone for it. Like someone who wants to build modified old cars for a living.

I look at it this way, take car enthusiasts as a whole. That's a large market. Now split it domestic and import, that reduces the number in each category. Then split the domestics between classic and late model, another reduced number. Now slice that among the various manufacturers, smaller numbers. If you continue to slice it down to the point that you only build high end, highly modified, pro touring, 1st gen Camaros for $100k, then you have narrowed the market very significantly. Granted, pro touring 1st gen Camaros are probably the most popular car in that segment, but that's still, compared to the balance of the hobby, a narrow segment you are tring to attract and retain. How much saturation will it support, I couldn't begin to guess.

I don't think anyone here suggested that the plan was to sell pro-touring cars at a high volume...
The question was: what the actual resale value of a pro-touring car with modifications is; if that resale can be determined based on the sum of the specific modifications; and what the "sweet spot" in terms of cost to modify to return on invest is.

That being said - I think there most definitely IS a market for these cars, and I think there definitely are people out there who will pay top dollar for a heavily modified pro-touring car, as long as the car is actually built well.

Coach builders like Singer have proven that people are willing to pay over $200,000 for nostalgia, as long as that nostalgia actually runs and drives reliably. I think many of Stielow's builds could fit this segment - particularly Hellfire and Jackass.

The return is 40 to 50 cents on the dollar on a turn key car. The more you spend initially the lower the return. There are exceptions to that....

Yep, that is what keeps the shops in business.

Now we get into the exceptions, a car built by Stielow (or any other big name) carries some pedigree, there is a value in a particular name being attached to a build. Warning: fictional numbers used for the sake of conversation ahead......Stielow"s Hellfire may bring may bring 300K at an auction like BJ, Donny's Belltire, identically equipped may do half that.

Setting aside the fact that I can't actually write a check that large, I would gladly pay 200K for a car build that is _exactly_ what I want but would never pay near that for a car that was _exactly_ what another individual wanted. Weld can relate I think, you can buy a '40 pickup done pretty nicely for 50K, a friend just bough one in primer, running and driving but needing work for under 15K.......but it wouldn't be Greg's truck and wouldn't be the way he wants.

Back to the OP, the only mod that pays you back is air conditioning. Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

[QUOTE=ironworks;572280]But my questions is what are the elements people look for at different price ranges?

I believe that people look for the most they can find for the least amount of cash required to obtain it. The examples you provided are terrific samples of the cars and market prices people can acquire, but I feel your question is a bit loaded. I would be asking how big the market actually is for pro-touring cars. Search "pro-touring" in the search line on fleabay and you get a $250k fully customized g-machine to a completely stock 1st gen Camaro in the mid-twenties. The best part is, of the thousands of cars on the site, only 20-40 show up with the pro-touring moniker. The buyers market is very thin for the cars we have in this hobby.

Does one suspension MFG command more resale value over another?

NO...I do not believe most people have a clue about different MFG's and those that do, recognize the value of the parts AND the way they work. We are talking a very small sliver of the market will pay more for the suspensions we bolt on or are custom made. I definitely would (and have) paid more but I am a realist and know that the average buyer is not going to have a clue. What may open the market a little more is knowing it has a 4-link, Watts, 3-link or other suspension type versus leaf springs.

Does the high resale value make it worth the added cost and possibly labor to install? NO...there is not a HIGH resale value of a PT car. And NO there is not a high resale value for labor. The ride and feel of the car with no rattles or squeaks will tho. That will recoup a greater percentage of the parts cost, kind of like Blake mentioned in his response.

How much more money is a car worth that has great stance?

More than one with a crappy stance. HA! Sorry for the sarcasm. Look at the dealers and guys that buy and resell a lot on CL and eBay. Tires, wheels, dropped leafs with lowering blocks, a shiny car wash and a chick in the picture. Their cars are always $5-10k more than the same version with stock wheels and stance. My dad always told me if you want to sell your car, go buy some chrome wheels. Wheels make the car more than any other modification IMO.

Do mini tubbed cars command enough money to pay for the additional labor expense on a street car?

YES...This is becoming more mainstream. Big tires are more attractive than other mods. There is a mini tubbed 69 Camaro leaf sprung car with 345's for sale locally for $65k. Other than that, it's a carbureted sbc, 4-speed, with a stock houndstooth interior and clone baldwin motion paint job and stock suspension.

Or does the matter more when the car has bigger horsepower? Does say an LS9 command alot more money then say an LSA? Or even more if it was a high end builder like Kurt Urban, Mast, Wegner?

Yes, to those that know what the brand name is and how much horsepower is "bigger horsepower". Again, a very small sliver of the market pays attention to this. On this site we see 1000+ hp builds. On the street, 500hp is a shocker to many people. A guy with a 268hp Camry is going to sh*t himself with an LS3 5th gen Camaro SS. It's all relative. I think FI versus carbureted is more attractive to buyers in todays market.

What is the ideal platform to make money on in the Gas Monkey Garage kinda builds that are built for resale? Camaro..... Obviously rust free is an obvious first start.

Start with the same brand and models of the cars we see getting built on this site. Camaros, Mustangs, Chevelles, Novas, etc...Add a little lipstick and rouge, drop in an LS or EFI SB or BB with a 5 or 6 speed or modern automatic, lower the stance a little with some coil overs and turn them quick. If you can sell 15-20 cars a month with an average profit of $3-5k, you can make a little bit of money Gas Monkey Garage style. Target price is $35-50k. I agree with Greg tho, if you want to make a profit, go elsewhere. Investing 102.

This is a great thread. Really makes one think about our hobby and the cars we love. No wonder only 3 people showed interest in either of my cars when they were on the cars for sale page.

Here is an example which had to be painful for the seller (I didn't search for it, but there was a build thread on this car here in the past).

https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail.cfm...=CH1014-195872

The selling price was $87k, then subtract the 6% seller fee. I know that car was for sale on eBay a while back with a BIN price around $180k. Ouch...

Wow that is an extreme kick to the wallet.

I think that maybe people are scared to pay top dollar due to depreciation value. What's cool today may not be so cool in ten years. Mini trucks were OK when they first came out but are they cool now? Not so much.

I'm personally building a "pro touring" car for myself but I'm building it for myself. If your building these cars with high end aftermarket parts trying to make top dollar then you haven't done your research. Most people at auctions pay for nostalgia and properly build stock /restomod cars at auctions, not highly modified ones.

You have to take your personality out of how you build cars to resell and build what EVERYONE can relate to at auction, young and older crowd.

Was this the "Mobile Closing Office" built by AllSpeed??? If so I remember the build and seeing it at OUSCI... the 87K paid was too much.

That was the one. And ouch again... Didn't realize that was the case. The car certainly appeared to have a lot of time/work in it...

I think that car is a good representation of something that is "too custom" for most people. I'd be willing to be that it would have fetched more in relation to it's build cost if it looked mostly stock, or "OEM," like Steilow's cars.

I think the other thing that's going to bring in a consistently higher selling price is uniformity in the build. By that I mean that the builder has built more than one similar car, and has "sorted out" the problem areas. I suspect that most buyers of high end cars would feel a lot more comfortable spending a large sum of money when they see a builder can "manufacturer" a small volume of vehicles that meet a uniform standard of quality.

By the way - I am in no way suggesting that the Firebird in that link is not a high quality build. I can tell that a lot of effort went into making a beautiful car... I just think it's too specifically built to appeal to a broad market.

Compare that Firebird above with the Year One Burt Reynolds Edition
Buyers seem to be willing to pay more when they can buy a turn key car as a package, without having to worry about all the details associated with customizing the build - especially when they know other people are buying a similarly built car. I think it just comes down to perceived reliability.

So like I said before - I think if someone could figure out how to assembly line a first or second gen with minitubs, an LS3, AC, disc brakes, decent wheels, and a nicely upgraded leather interior that looks relatively OEM, I think they'd be able to command a higher price than what most of the customs have been going for at Barrett Jackson.

Mike puts out a lot of ready to build bodies. Not sure how fast they move though.

https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=47315

Similar to the adopt a project I have at the shop. But the body and title cost depends on how much was spent on the rehab to get it to a straight rust free body. The customer then has the choice have us build it or bring it home for a garage project.

We also locate cars for clients.

The whole idea of selling a highly modified Pro-touring at auction is surely a questionable deal.. Outside of certain custom builders that bring a providence to the build immediately, the average person selling one of these cars in that format is setting himself up for failure... The auction houses make their money moving the maximum amount of nice cars through the block and can't take the time to really describe and as been stated educate the consumer on what they are buying...

It would appear the market is settled into the 30-45 range, the 55-75 range and the boutique truly custom build group that varies dramatically... Like all other forms of cars sales the market becomes small as you grow the costs. We all fall in love with the high end stuff because face it we're car buffs or we wouldn't be reading this..

As far as augmenting revenues, tough call and certainly on a car by bassis to say the least... I feel there is a possible new area that may offer opportunity and that is selling rollers that require the new owner to select the rims, and having them deal with basic interior install and pre-thought out wiring options (ie an American auto wire setup with pre anticipated Auto Meter gauges.. pick your own style from their offering but the harness and gauges are basically plug and play).. This will allow buyers the ability to stagger their spending, do some of the labor and end up with a nice car to their taste in the end...

ZL-1's are lame.

69 Camaros are awesome.

End of story :action-smiley-027:

WELL SAID !! and ...
ZL1 $55K today ... worth $40K tomorrow
Well executed PT 69 camaro $$$ today = $$$ same tomorrow ... :idea:

I've looked at doing this in the past and I agree Albert there is a market for this but its a hard market.

I biggest issue I found was the masses don't really know what it really cost just for "new" sheet metal let alone the cost to install it. I've done body work on cars for 10k with no special fab work, I've done paint jobs for 20K on clean cars with minimal body work. I've done quicky paint and body for 5K (not in years at that price :D)

I had a friend ask me the other day what I thought of a 69 Camaro on flebay and I almost fell out of my chair, total junk needing EVERY panel replaced and was mostly a shell. No glass, no trim to speak of nothing but a shell! The bidding was at 5K with a couple of days to go.

Now yes I know its a 69 Camaro, and it will bring more money then most any other car like it but when you compare a 69 Chevelle that is mostly complete glass is there, trim is there, the small stuff that adds up fast. It need most likely new fenders and qtrs, and? It sells for 4K, it's hard to see that 69 Chevelle finished as a painted roller, and sell for??? The qtrs still have to be bought and installed, they still need the same amount of work to get them to fit as the Camaro. But the Camaro will sell way faster and bring 20-30% more but still needs 20-30% more to finish it?

Its tough but the only ones I see making any money are the "flipers" on these cars. :underchair: sorry I know we all hate the flipper but thats where the money is, fix a few things, a patch here a new set of shinny wheels and bam you have 3-5K profit. Not a bad days work.

Thats the other thing that makes drives me crazy, when did "profit" become such a dirty word?? It's crazy but some guys think "WOW"I'm going to make some money on what I do for them :innocent:

Thoughts??

Profit has gotten a Bad Name - people forget that if companies don't make a Profit, they go out of Business.

Flippers get a Bad rep too. I flip a car or 2 a year. Sometimes it takes months of work on a car before it even is listed For sale. Then you have to deal with the Idiot potential Buyers

Another factor that hasn't been brought up - let's face it, for a large majority of people that like these cars, the build is most of the fun. Dreaming about what it will look like, picking out parts, making choices. That's why you see these massive 3-5 year projects taht get sold 1 year later, the owner wants to "build" something else. I don't have any insight into the market, but I think the posts above might be on to something - prepping shells and rollers that a normal guy can then take home and build into something. That is the hardest part of the project, getting the initial car and dealing with all the bornig (and specialized skill and tool) stuff like replacing rust and panels. I think a lot of car guys would love to build an old car if they only had to deal with wiring, engine setup, wheels, suspensino bolt ons and stuff.

But I still don't think there is a lot of money to be made there. Look at the body advertised above - $24k for a roller. That's gonna always seem like a big step in price.

But then you have "experienced" (older) guys like me that have fiddled with cars for years, but have always been too thrifty for anything "really nice".
I had a pretty nice '69 Camaro for 17 years, big block/ nitrous, etc... a mid 11 second streeter. But I got bored because it had a 40 mile radius of comfortable driving. I didn't like to sit at shows all weekend, and what else do you do with it? So I sold it & bought a C-6 Z-06. Fun car, but really pretty boring too. It was fast, but didn't FEEL fast. Got tired of the various expenses (License fees, insurance, & depreciation) of owning that type of car & not driving it much. And it wasn't welcome at most shows & cruises. So I sold that too.
I decided a needed a comfortable old muscle car. Wasn't interested in spending 2 or 3 years building my own, so I went looking at Barrett-Jackson. I looked at quite a few cars, & every one was not quite right. Then I saw the car I bought & just had to have it. I spent a pretty penny, but got a car that would cost close to twice to build as what I spent. It was exactly to my taste, and had all kinds of jewelry, stuff I would never spend the money for. (i.e. $500 hood hinges-- are you kidding me?) It was built largely at DSE, and I figured that provenance was worth some extra dough.
So, I got a car I think is pretty great, got it immediately, and couldn't duplicate for what I spent.
Some of us don't have the patience, discipline, vision, or talent to build a high end car ourselves. But I CAN maintain, update, and enjoy the heck out of it. And in another year or so, it will FEEL like my own car.
Just my story, but I don't think I'm the only one.

I'm not a buyer, just found this surfing, curious what you guys think this thing really is worth? And "Pro Touring"? With SBC, leafs and drum brakes, really?

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/cto/4728786080.html

You forgot to mention the NASCAR LOOKING ENGINE.

Sounds like it could be an OK car. Definitely not worth that much money though... I guess most people just assume pro-touring = lowered with 17" wheels.