Not to but into this post,,but im also experiencing some similar problems,,and if I could just get some assistance would be great,,,so for you shop owners,,,lets just say a guy brings in a 78 trans am with a perfect running pontiac motor with a turbo 350 tranny,,,your tasked with removing the motor and tranny because your going to be putting in a new motor and tranny ,,,my first question,,do you pull the motor and tranny as one unit at the same time because you were told the customer is going to sell the motor and tranny ,,note there are no wheel wells in car and everything is just as simple as can be no a/c or heater core.NOW THIS WILL SOUND DUMB BUT JUST ROLE WITH IT PLEASE,,,,OR do you pull out the distributor,take off the oil filter housing,pull all pulleys,alternator,power steering pump,and only pull out the engine,and leave the tranny hainging unsupported .,,,,what is an best guess at how many hours to pull the engine and tranny,,,now if I were to have done this myself I would have pulled it all out at the same time and only taken off what had to be disconnected,,,but hey thats me.Or if you did pull just the motor how many hours would it take????/?:drowninga:

Here is the engine you would be pulling in my above question,,,

I would have removed the subframe, lifted the entire engine/trans out and told you to bring a P/U and loaded it in the back. And then cleaned up the sub, drop the new engine and trans on the sub and reinstalled the unit.

But what do I know.

Curtis made a good point about get it in writing. We have a contract that gets signed, we feel it protects everyone. we write down numbers, and talk about it.
One thing that has NEVER happened......... a potential customer has NEVER asked for a signed agreement! NEVER. we provide one.

The next thing that turns these jobs sideways is when the customer comes in and I quote" Can we do this? or That?" well of course we can, but now the plan and budget go out the window. STICK TO THE PLAN.

I have a customer who brought us a driving Yenco clone 69 Camaro. We gave him a Estimate to do the work requested. The car showed up, now he wanted us to remove the carpet and windows to look for rust. NO PROBLEM. yep there is rust. Ok now can you take the car apart and sandblast it? YEP. Guess what. New floor, new quarters, door, fenders, tail pan. now he is so upside down, so what does he do? goes and buys another car sight unseen off the internet and has it shipped to us to use it. It is JUNK. He paid more for it than I estimated to fix the other one???? WTH now he has no money to fix Either.
Now I have 1 car blown apart and one complete sitting in the shop and the customer has no money?? 2 69 Camaros for sale now.

That is a build gone ALL wrong ALL due to the customer NOT LISTENING to the shop. what do you think we do all day here???

You learned that trick from me.... LOL



That would have been half a days worth of work. Would have kept the idiots from leaning all over the fenders - and would have given nice access to clean some stuff up - and from what I see - it could use some TLC.

you are correct SIR!! I have learned almost everything from you.

:lmao:

Agreed thanks man,,,

See ya next week... when we can continue to swap more lies! :>)

I have the same protocol. While my clients like cars and own expensive toys many aren't necessarily "car guys." They really don't understand what goes into building custom vehicles so as part of being a responsible shop owner I educate them. I have a signed agreement outlining the process, outlining the billing, outlining the payment schedule. I discuss how these custom vehicles are exactly that... custom. Many of the parts are one off custom machined items, many of the parts are racecar parts modified for street use, bolt on is a misnomer in this business. Like many of the other shop guys commenting on this post, I deal with cars that you don't know what it will cost until it is done. As a shop you provide a rough estimate... and I detail it as much as possible from experience but every client I deal with knows that the billing on these cars is based on time and materials. Before work begins the client signs the service agreement and the initial estimate with the time and materials clause written into both.

As a responsible shop owner I respect the trust my clients give me. Many I get to know as personal friends and for me to survive as a niche service provider I have to respect that trust. Every month they get an invoice with pictures of the work that was done and a narrative. I photograph anything that deviates from the initial estimate and give the client options on how to best address it. There is a clause in the service agreement that the client can request an updated estimate at any time but I have never had anyone ask because I am constantly in communication, either through pictures, emails, texts or phone calls. At the end of the service they get a folder with all of the pictures, all of the invoices, a current spec sheet on the vehicle with maintenance info (belts #s, fluids, etc...) and all of the monthly update emails.

The big failure here is communication. It is completely irresponsible for the shop to have sent him 6 months of invoices at one time and being in excess of the entire project budget. If the shop owner is a reasonable person then he will work with you on the bill. But anyone that would charge $700 in materials and 40 hours to bend up a stainless steel brake system that would take about $200 in materials and about 10 hours doesn't sound reasonable to me. It is true it could be miscommunication within his shop but you need to pin the owner that you set up this deal with down, in person to settle this bill and get your car out of there. It isn't your place to be the go-between within his shop. It sounds like this shop isn't competent enough to be working on your car in the first place... if it took him 40 hours to bend up a brake system then you are paying for someone to learn and should be getting a discounted labor rate anyway. I see this all the time with the Unique Performance cars that have come out of other shops and the owner has paid for them to learn how to work on the car enough to piece meal something together that I have to then charge him to take out and do properly.

My .02

Good luck. Try the reasonable route first. If he starts going sideways, consult a lawyer to find your rights in your state but don't come in throwing the lawyer car or it will instantly become a hostile situation.

If you show up with your checkbook and a trailer it could go two ways... either he will be reasonable and you can settle on a dollar amount and you can get the car out...

or...

He knows that if you are pulling the car he will never get another dollar out of you and will not negotiate just to be an ass.

Since it sounds like this is an out of state deal I would suggest showing up with the trailer parked nearby but don't let him know it's there until you agree on a price, make sure all of your parts are there, pay the bill, and then pull the car.

Sorry you are having to go through this... shops that can't handle their business ruin the fun of this hobby.

Excellent post Sean! :clap: :clap: :clap:

sounds good I have been saving a few!!! :BlahBlah: :BlahBlah: :BlahBlah:

Well... I'm sure you could do that same job a number of different ways. You chose the shop and told them what you wanted them to do - aside from making sure they aren't trying to rip you off, as long as you trust the work they do, I'd just let them do it however they want. Afterwards, if you're unhappy with the work, just pull your car out and find another shop.

Totally at a stand still.
 

^^^That is great info. Sean^^^^


Just an update
I have been trying to set up a meeting now for 2 weeks with him to discuss the situation he has avoided all my emails and phone calls. Right now I want to go get my car but I am not sure the shop will even be open. I really don't want to get an attorney involved but I am stuck.

I'd be going to the shop tomorrow... actually I'd already be on my way.

Halloween
 

I want to go Greg- but spending time with the kids tonight want to leave early tomorrow morning.

Good luck this morning Tim!! Hope all works out ok!

No negotiating
 

Well I am at the shop and he does not want to deal. Called the police and now he says he has filed a Leon against the car.
More to come.

Uugh! Get a police report and any info they may have....be cool and good luck.

good luck

Keep us updated....

who called the Police?

Wow... sucks that it degraded that fast. If you haven't consulted an attorney.. talk to one now and find out what your rights are in that state. Get all of your documentation together. Write out a timeline of conversations with your emails to back it up. Show that he had no legal authority to perform the work to the $$ he did and if you have any documentation of your agreement have that ready as well. Only thing you can do from here is be organized and have all the facts ready to fight what will likely be an emotional "he-said,he-said" argument from the shop perspective.

Have the police document everything, including the condition of your vehicle and all of your parts. Photograph everything to document your side of the story, your car, and your parts. Unfortunately from here it will likely become a civil legal matter.

Good luck!

Does he have a signed work order!?!?!?!?! He can't lean nothing in ILLINOIS without a signed work order!

Yup what Mario said, and from what you posted before about the laws in that state it's the same there as well.

If he didn't give you a written price or estimate he SOL!!

Also send he him a certified letter of Cease and Desist immediately!! Over night it by courier if you have to but US postal is best!! This way he can't rack up more charges on your car for work.

Now the last part you don't want to hear; I would go back TOMORROW with my trailer and pay him the bill due and pick up my car. Yes it sucks but a civil deal will cost you more in the end with possible damage or worse theft of parts from your car.

Lessons do cost money and that's what this will be going forward, but with your car back at your house.

Good luck!!

Man makes me sick to my stomach to read about this!

Did you get your car back or not?

If that is the case, then get to the Shop with a Trailer and have the Police meet you there. Get your car! Do not pay him! Let him take you to Court.

you can have police there for a stand by. he has no right to keep your property.


i'd like to hear how this degraded so fast but if this is going to go to court I would have this thread deleted and not say anything else.

I had similar situation a few years ago and the shop was forced to turn the car over to me by the police. Without a lean he cant keep it at least here in Texas so I would get there and get the car as quickly as possible.

To Hell and back!
 

Well guys what an exhausting experience to say the least. So the police are there telling me they cannot force him to give me the car., So on the drive in I contaced a lawyer to draw up some paperwork to get my car back. Right now I am loading up all the parts and putting everything into the car and they block the door with an SUV. I go over and talk to the owner one more time to try negotiate again. He wants to have no part in dealing, so I present him with the papers from the lawyer . He looks at the papers goes in the other room and tells the police he has a lien on my car. I asked why he filed a lien on my car and when? He said this morning. I told him why would you file a lien on my car you had no idea I was going to be here today. He said he filed a lien because I owed him money. As he said he does with every car that customer that owes him money. I knew he was lying because he could not present any paper work that has do with the lien, also I cannot happen that quickly. . Any way in the meantime my wife gets out of the car and tell me my son has a fever of 102*. Now all hells is starting to break loose. I start telling the owner we need to come to some sort of agreement at this point he keeps looking at his watch because he has to catch a flight out of town. We finally come to a settlement pretty much the same one we had in the phone conversation 2 weeks ago. I told him I would write him a check. He wanted a wire transfer or certified check.
So we get online and set up a wire transfer we go through the process and the money is sent he sees the receipt and even prints it out. Transaction is done the police leave the owner leaves. I back the trailer up and precede to get my car when the shop manager tells me I cannot have my car till the money hits the account. Now I am pissed. I call my bank and they say it could be 8 to 24 hours and it is now 3:00pm. We drive to a bank about 30 min away and tried to get a reversal on the wire the told me that I can only get a reversal 30 min after it is sent it has been 1.5 hours. They said if the owner called and refused they would write me a cashiers check. I called the owner he said he would but now he wants cash no check. At this point I am F@&!ed. I cannot spend the night here and the shop is only open till 7 so I aske the bank manager if he could put a rush on the wire the only thing he could do was call. At this point the family was hungry and I had the wife looking fo a place to stay. We sat outside the hotel looking at it in disgust. Then I got a notification that the wire was complete. We took off back to the shop it was about 6:45 I went inside and asked the shop manager to check the account. He did the money went through and we were okay to load the car up and the hell out of town. We drove straight home. Got home at 1:45am and was completely exhausted. I got my car BACK!!!!!. I will check on the condition of the car and report back.

OMG what a stressful ordeal.... It was like a mystery novel reading that. I am glad you got it back in the end and you did what you needed to. Now I would get your ducks in a row best you can and see what recourse you have and if it's worth pursuing (only you can decide what your time and money is worth).

Very glad you got the car back! Post more once you are rested and have the family and everything taken care of first.

Since its over can you tell us the name and location of this shop? We are going to make sure this doesn't happen to anyone else.

That is fantastic that you got the car back! Please do share the name of this shop and its location so no-one else has to endure this type of thievery!

Wow, what an ordeal!.. :confused59: .. That sucks..
had to leave for a flight huh,,, sounds like someone is going to SEMA.
when you get unraveled, post some Pictures of what they did.

Good luck with the rest of the build..:thumbsup:

Same here. Please tell us the name/location of the shop.

Glad it's over and you got your car back.

I'm not sure that you should do that Grnova! If you choose to Sue him, you don't want to appear slanderous. In fact if you are thinking you might take Legal Action, I would ask the Moderators to Delete this whole Thread.

Glad you got the car back!

very true.....but after you reveal the name of the shop :hello:

Wow! What a mess! Glad you got your car back though and hopefully with everything intact!!


Call me paranoid but do yourself a favor.... Check all your fluids, check your intake/ air filter/ throttle body for any "loose" hardware," and drain and refill the oil and check the gas tank for any signs of tampering (sugar, etc..) before you start the engine up. Make sure the trans and diff have proper fluid and observe for any signs of tampering.

If this guy was that much of an ass you want to make sure he didn't leave you with any parting gifts.

What an incredibly frustrating ordeal.

Perhaps one of you shop owners that chimed in about having/using a contract could provide one in a generic form to this forum as a Sticky so that all of us newbies could modify/print it out should we ever take a car to a shop. Figure it'll at least provide us with some clue as to how and what should be expected.

Just a thought.

Front brake lines
 

All brake lines were run in AN fittings -per the shop owner- here are some shots from last night.
I will get some of the exhaust.



http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...psdfceaa95.jpg


http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps64d155ed.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...pse4d1c1a0.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps52251338.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps9e1c7735.jpg

Exhaust
 

so here is a picture of the exhaust before I sent it to him it needed to be mounted and flex couplers put in.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps01c5fb18.jpg

This is finished, mounted mufflers on crossmember, installed 3" flex couplers at headers, mounted tail pipes from watts linkage frame.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...psd6ef8fc3.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps1afccc1e.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps642856d0.jpg