I like the principal behind that but the social aspect of the cruise on Saturday night is pretty cool too. Why not both?

All you can do is have a year cut off. and the guy with the most money wins. end of story.

Or just change the name to the Optima Ultimate Car, because lets be honest the top cars out there were barley street cars.

I am not crying spilt milk by any stretch, you have to pick your poison for sure.
it sure is fun to watch I must say.

Agree. Also... minimum tread depth check before returning to the street for the final cruise. Tires have to pass the same safety checks after racing as they did before the racing.

That just means that the judging criteria for the concourse and rally events need to be revised a little. More points could be given for full interior, stereo and AC, etc.

GOOD IDEA!! and make the cruse 100 miles, lots of open hwy in NV. Even some COOL back roads. If you went up 15 to Moapa/ Valley of fire around that loop to Overton and back the I15 it would be about 80-90 miles with slow winding country roads and freeway driving with 2-3 available gas stops. I mean hell if the Drag week guys can do 1500 miles. a prostock car could drive 15 miles if it had to.

Getting a little off topic from what Jody is asking here, but if its truly an ultimate street car then the following should also be included in the points-

dB and noise spectrum at cruise as well as NVH frequency analysis (how high, how much amplitude) make it a single blended score
Visibility out back and for lane changes
Cockpit temperature maintained in a certain range
clutch stiffness (again a wide rating that mostly penalizes outliers)
freeway rut tramline test
Would your mom ride in it ?
Ultimate level - would your mom drive it ?

Totally impractical of course but I kind of laugh everytime people start discussing race/street cars. Other than the "pre 1980 body style" thing I don't think there is a way to really separate muscle car styles from the modern cars.

The real question to start with is does Optima want an ultimate street car contest or a "cool looking cars compete on track" contest ?
I believe the first few years were the latter, and now it is turning into the former. I remember the first few years, it was mostly show cars that could run vs what's going on now. But as people have said, that's what made it cool, that was the real draw.

Optima
 

Now I know why Jody runs this board
He can post one question and get us going 4 pages in one day... love it

In Sf region of SCCA and also American autocross series they started
many years back two classes that are and maybe still unique to their
region... Open street prepared... anything goes but is has to have interior
and be registered.. they also took the old vettes out of the class and added Vintage prepared- spec tire- Nascar tires... these two things gave
some of these guys a place to run

First there needs to be some rules and I think Optima and SCCA are
trying to make things fair- not too many

I ran Optima last year and one of the best days of my life... I ran my
Pantera Saturday at Good guys (almost all the fast guys were in Vegas
except Mary) and placed 3 overall with 66 cars. but I was running
Dot road race tires.. more grip but harder to heat up with a car
that I cross once every year or two... my point is I had fun
and everyone loved the car.... everyone loves the old cars

Mary opened her hood and a group formed quickly.. look under the
car and the changes including the IRS are great

Our sport needs to have the old cars run but a guy like Kyle,Brent, etc also
need to show what they can do for the new cars otherwise they
may not be selling anything down the road...

Our sport is about improving what we have with the ways and means
we have.. someone is always going to be faster..... we all just want
to be faster than before and enjoy doing it

my two cents-Panteracer

I dunno... I personally like seeing how fast a street car can really be, and get particularly interested when a classic car can run against late model performance cars.

The former version of USCA you describe, which seemed to have been judged mostly subjectively based on what car looked the coolest, isn't really all that interesting to me. Just feels like an opportunity for people to pretend to race their cars.

If I can go out to a track day and run time trials in an open competition against everything from pumped up EVO and Z06, to Porsche GT2, and come within a margin of cars that are proven to be really fast out the box in my 47 year old Camaro, then I'll be stoked.

I don't need to win to have a blast - I just want to see what my car can do when judged objectively against newer cars.

My first objective when running in Optima or with the SCCA is just to have a place to drive my car like I built it to be driven in the first place.

Optima's format with the 5 events crammed into one weekend is a fantastic formula for this. The seat time one gets at these events is worth SO much more than screwing something up just to try to figure out a way to get your car closer to the top of the standings at the end of the day.

I didn't care or dream about being anywhere near the top of the running order on the big sheet. Did I look to see how I was doing against those guys...sure. I also watched them closely when I could to see if I as a driver could pick anything up from them. Heck, I lined up on the warm up laps behind Danny Popp and learned the line around the track at 60 mph.

Mainly though I looked around at the cars similarly built to mine and looked to see where I stacked up against them at each event. Everyone knows who everyone is, and what their cars are built like. Pick those that you think you can beat and go do it.

Being able to see myself running my car on TV...well that was just gravy on top of an already excellent weekend.

I add my 2 cents to this!

Optima
 

Lance I agree Have a place to run the car
My esp firebird is no longer legal for that class
with all changes made and instead of moving to
Cp I can do osp or Cam now.

This whole discussion is great
Reminds me of a favorite movie line
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid

Getting ready to fight for running the hole in
the wall gang so Butch chooses knives
The other guy is ready to start and Butch says no no
we need to go over the rules

The other guy says Rules in a knife fight?

Ok - I'll take a stab at this...

Jody's question was "what would a pro-touring class look like if there were classes for competitors?" My answer addresses that question alone and does not have anything to do with the USCA, ASCA, or OUSCI.

Eligible cars - anything older than 1989 with current Registration and Insurance. Must have basic, functioning, "street car" equipment: headlights, tail lights, signal lights, hazard lights, backup light, license plate light, horn, wipers, self contained heat, built in audio, glass windshield, functioning side windows and a minimum of two seats. All "street car" equipment must be permanently installed. MINIMUM weight must be within 2% of the manufacturers advertised dry weight.

Wheels - open

Tires - any 200 treadwear tire (no size limitations) purchased from Tire Rack, Discount Tire, or other recognized tire retailer OR any DOT legal tire (no treadwear limitations) 275 mm wide or less (also purchased at a recognized retailer). Must produce receipt if requested. Ideally tires would/could be branded at the time of purchase.

Suspension - open

Brakes - open

Body - open

Aero - open

Engine - open

Transmission - no sequential gearboxes

Exhaust - mufflers are mandatory

That's it. Fact is rules can not or should not be drafted to specifically cater to any one's preconceived notion or particular car. This is Pro Touring and as best as I can recall the premise of Pro Touring was based on improving and modernizing old cars and not limiting them or putting them in to a particular pigeon hole.

Now... If there was a series I would add the following:

1. In order to compete for event or series point individual CARS would have to be certified and would have to complete a 300 mile cruise prior to be eligible for points. One day prior to any event a certification cruise would be held. Drivers only have to complete one cruise per season BUT if an engine is changed they must recertify at the next event to remain eligible.
2. Drivers must be the registered owner of the car.
3. No professional drivers.
4. No tire warmers

The conversation surrounding USCA and OUSCI is another one entirely. Cam and Jimi have done a great job putting the series together and the reality is, like it or not, we are a small part of the automotive community and if you are going to be the Ultimate anything you can't put a bunch of limitations on things... Unless you want to compete to be the "Ultimate red 1964 to 1973 American built, two wheel drive street car with 275 tires weighing over 3726 pounds with a five speed".

Seeing what you can do against a new factory built is fun but at the end of the day its for racing.

The most fun I have had at a track was with a group of friends racing for the weekend. Chasin with no times or who beat who. We did have race groups just to keep it safe. But it was just us n trhe track.

Just a bunch of guys who built their cars in carports to guys that had shops do the work for them. All in fun.

Those rules look vaguely familiar James. It works very well in that arena and could translate very nicely, sans the engine rule since it would be easy to cheat around. A 300+ mile cruise every time to a separate event with no trailers, sag wagons, etc. would also significantly change the vehicle and logistics dynamic, but USCA coverage would be tough.

Separating into a "PT" group would be great for ME to see. However, without sponsors, these events won't happen. So, the question becomes what do the sponsors want to see? What do they need in order to keep their interest in sponsoring, advertising, and attending these events? If we knew better what they want, it might be easier for us and USCA to craft an accommodating format.

In the end it is the Optima Ultimate Street Car (singular.)

They did an excellent job orchestrating that whole deal, especially with the chaos of SEMA thrown in with it.

Lance, thanks for mentioning me. I'm sure some of the guys on here can attest to the grin I had all weekend. I was in my element. Sure, sometimes things don't seem "fair" but as others have said, we come for the cars and the competition and stay for the friendships. I'm still hoping to finish mid-pack like I did at each of the qualifying events I did this year. Results soon I hope.

Some of you saw the pic I posted of our first run group session in Advanced, running order was GT-R, 997 TT, ZR1...65 Chevelle! The order changed in later sessions but I was pretty darn happy to be right up there with those cars. The ZR1 was only 0.8 secs faster than me in that session, lol.

Yes, this would be good. Not just an easy freeway drive, but a good mix. I think a substantial drive would have a few dead soldiers by the end. I'm sure there were a few "racey" clutches that weren't too happy about the drive down Las Vegas Boulevard in stop and go (mostly stop) traffic. That was pretty cool actually getting to drive the strip :D

I agree with most of what you said.

All that does is tell me that I must start with the lightest car.

Since we don't typically run in the rain and don't have to put that many miles on in the cruise, I think most would run the 275 A7s over any of the 200 TW tires. 200TW keeps it simple.

This times eleventy.

That would be cool but see Rodger's comments regarding Drag Week and Kyle/Ryan drove the White Monster on OneLap so it seems that all it proves is what an individual is willing to put up with.


Like.


Opinions vary. Look at how pure motorsports used be compared to what it is now.

I would very much like to hear an opinion or two from someone who competed over the weekend and would like to see a change.....and I would _really_ like to see the results from the weekend to see how outgunned the PT cars are.

That brings me to another question, is anyone surprised by the outcome? There was 10 events throughout the year, the AWDs and late models didn't just get fast in Vegas, did they?

But you have that option as it is. The only reason to even mention weight is to get away from the attempts to craft rules that require you to run a B-body Dodge to meet the rules. Minimum wights are tough because a base '67 came in at less than 3100 pounds dry... Making a minimum weight of 3200+ is unrealistic given many of our cars could have weighted less to begin with.

True but if you were on A7s in Pittsburgh you just lost and, depending on the cruise, you could heat cycle the tires out before you got to the track. It's a risk that some would take and would be interesting. Not a lot of soft tires would survive two days happily...

Yep - I was there with Kyle and Ryan... in the pouring rain... on a bridge...in rush hour traffic... in Bowling Green Kentucky... on Derby day. We were both pulling trailers. :) And I'm fine with that. Nobody should be able to tell me what I can drive on the street. I've driven with a kirky seat for more miles than most would enjoy - no big deal with seat covers. Heck - last week some people were telling me that you had to have AC to be a real street car. I didn't own a car with AC until I was 26 - I never needed it here.


I was there. We were badly outgunned for the most part and it was no surprise. The points champion drove a 5th gen and late model Camaros and Corvettes were dominant throughout the year. And yes - AWDs were there all year - but this was the first event where they were ALL there the same time.

BUT - we tried - we had fun - and we would all do it again.

Being the points champion is a little on the superficial side in my opion. He happened to also go to 5 events this year, more than anyone else as far as I know. It would have been hard for him not to be the points champion. The points champion should have been the participant that scored the most points overall in 1 event in my opinion.

Points for the championship were based on the best 3 events. Ken went to 5 events in the 1LE, Bryan went to 3, Kyle went to 6, I went to 6, Ryan went to 7 and Billy went to 5. Nobody in the Top 20 went to fewer than 3 events. If we used the best single event score the National Champion would have been Brandon in the Evo and the title could have easily gone to someone who was the only car in their class.

In what world would a points championship be based off of 1 event?

There were 10 events and I'm pretty certain he attended more than 5.

I'm not certain how they counted points or determined a champion, but if they were going to revise it all all, the thing to do would be to take everyone's 5 or maybe 7? Best shows and throw out the rest. You take their best 5 point scoring events and whoever had the most points combined is the champion.

When you are offering 10 events, it's not much to ask the top points guys to run at least half the series, and obviously if you have someone run every event they are going to better their chances at scoring the most points, throwing out their bad events.

A lot of short track series's run a similar points system, using their top however many points nights to determine the champion.

Well there's my answer.... I think 3 events is kind of low for a 10 race series but it makes sense that they did that. Next year with additional events I'm guessing they would use the best 5 at least.

Not sure why I am even commenting on this particular subject since its not my bag of tea but here's my $.02......Pro-touring to me is any muscle car under 1973 with aftermarket up grades. If I was going to separate the competition in this particular class I would do it based on weight. 3200 lbs and under with driver and 3201 lbs and over with driver.
Beyond that I'd keep it run what you brung. I personally don't think power plays a big part in being fast on a road course as much as tires and weight do and were all trying to squeeze the fattest tires up underneath our wells anyways.

Interesting, I didn't know that many people went to so many events. My reasoning comes from the not everyone can afford to go to multiple events, but everyone should be able to compete for a championship. Congrats to Ken. I wasn't trying to knock him, just the system.

I was only at the event for a few hours but one of my first impressions was that the days of a pro-touring car winning are likely in the past. In all honesty, this event needs to appeal to the masses for it to continue. I think they realized that pro touring couldn't support this series. Pro touring is a relatively small group of people. Another observation was the huge amount of sponsor support and small crowd. I'm sure SEMA played into the decisions for these vendors to show up, but there was more vendor support than you see at big events in drag racing, etc..

This event is a luxury for all involved. Build a nice car and if you get invited, wear a smile and go out and have fun. You aren't going to win.

If you want to win, build a corvette and have lots of talent.

I told Greg when I saw him that Mark's car is the epidemy of pro touring. To me, many of the others are just glorified race cars. Build what floats your boat, I don't have a problem with it. But for me, I'd want what Mark has for a street car or a purpose built race car.

It's going to be tough to come up with any rules for this event. The cars are going way to FAST. When you start taking away race car strategies, you end up with a less safe event. It goes back to the run what you brung and look at it as a luxury to me.

sad but true

Personally I'd like to just see three "classes" with no rules for the classes. Rules and definitions are just a PITA and create too many other issues.

Pick a DATE for a cut off for an EARLY IRON class

The EARLY IRON wouldn't define "pro touring"... it's just all early cars.

Anything after that magic date is a LATE MODEL - all wheel drive - whatever...

Then have a "show car" class

I like the "Show cars" -- it's so kool to see people willing to build a "show car" and yet come out and put it at risk... they're generally not "racer" types - most are totally unprepared. Let 'em at least slug it out for a trophy against the other show cars without having to compete with real race cars.


Change the styling to what I've said in past -- "WHICH CAR WOULD YOU MOST LIKE TO DRIVE" and leave it at that. That's 3 picks - one for each "class". Done. Then run what ya brung.


You could still have an OVERALL CHAMPION -- but at least there would be a "class winner" and that would put some spark back into the eyes of the early iron guys and would be fun for the "SHOW CAR" people too... you could brag that you had the fastest show car at OUSCI and have a trophy to show for it.


The fun of the early events was just to watch ALL of the cars RUN -- it was less of a competition and more of a come out and run, and while there wasn't many spectators and no TV -- it was the coolest event ever because EVERYONE just came out and did the best they could do with what they had.


I'd also like to see them hand out TROPHIES instead of checks. Checks get spent and you have no memory to show down the road. TROPHIES are for keeps and every time you see it the memories flood in and bring a smile to your face. Those $500 BF Goodrich checks they handed out would buy a pretty nice trophy and it could have a big BFG on the top kinda like a Wally..... So BFG would be forever immortalized as being a part of the event.

Although I still prefer anarchy, that makes sense, simple classes, without a bunch of rules. I like the fact that it still brings in the show cars allowing sponsors to show off their products. Still has a hint of the wild wild west, and lets everybody play.

Still have no desire to watch late models and ricers race, maybe they should limit them to around 3, OK 5.lol

Does it need to change?

Yes and No.... IMHO

Anyone that wouldn't go because they couldn't "WIN" is a loser....
This event is just fantastic and anyone that gets a chance should make the effort regardless of their chance to win, place, or show. In the end it's about the memories, and the friendships made -- not the time slip.

But you could also modify the event so people could at least get recognized for their efforts? What would it hurt. It would cost so little for 3 or 4 trophies and some mic time at the awards ceremony....

There just aren't very many folks capable of adding launch control and abs brakes - and AWD to their early iron. Then it would be a race to at least compare and try to outwit guys of your own cloth.

James, what's your reasoning behind no sequential transmissions? With today's automatics shifting as fast as they do I see no difference.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Steilows next car didn't have flappy paddles, launch control and abs...

I like all of this!

One other thing I'd like to see is an actual driving evaluation of the car by the judges - maybe they could drive the car a couple of laps (at low speeds) around the track, or ride along, or something, to get feel for the car's real comfort, amenities, and drivability. I think the Car Craft RSE event used to do something like this ...

I reread this thread this morning and realized I put the cart before the horse a bit in my posts. I had my SCCA hat on a bit too quickly plus didn't realize the cars weren't split into the three normal classes at the OUSCI final.

So to add to my original proposal of what a PT class would\should look like, I'd also add "American Made" to my proposed PT class ruleset.



Here what I proposed to the SCCA for changes to their CAM classes for 2015:

These are all American made, street legal licensed and registered, 200 TW street tired cars to start with.

CAM = All current CAM cars with 275 or smaller tires, stock appearing interior, minimum 3200 pounds (edit to 3000 pounds*)
CAM-W = All current CAM cars with larger than 275 tires, somewhat altered interiors, minimum 3000 pounds
CAM-S = All current CAM-S cars (factory two seaters) and cars that don't fit into CAM or CAM-W

*I didn't realize the 1967 Camaro was only 3100 pounds from the factory so I'd leave the minimum weight for CAM at 3000 pounds as it is now.



A common goal to create a ruleset that allows car owners to build a car to compete in OUSCI, SCCA, ASCA and Good Guys on level playing fields is being worked on. The courses and competitions are different, SCCA is mainly autocross while at the OUSCI more attention is paid to the road courses...but a common ruleset between the three will help everyone creating a draw to get competitors to show at events and giving competitors a place to play competitively.

Everyone is going to have a bit of a different idea of how to set the ruleset that benefits themselves the most, I know I'm guilty of that. But most of us want the same thing overall...a place to play as competitively as possible.

I just want the ruleset to be kept as simple as possible and include as many cars as possible in their own competitive class(es). If you used the three classes listed above plus a class for the AWD import cars, just about every car that was at OUSCI last weekend would run competitively against similar type cars and have a shot. Not sure how you decide on the single Ultimate Street Car from those classes but maybe the one that scores the most points in their respective class ends up being the overall winner? Or you get an Ultimate Street Car winner from each class and all get the same recognition.

It is hard to not SCCA up the ruleset if you get my drift, but it seems you have to split it up at least a little bit to make it more fair for everyone. That should be the common goal. Trying to do it by make, model and year just isn't going to work, there are way too many modifications allowed and different types of body styles used in this type of an open class for that type of separation.

Mark Stielow sent me his thoughts in an email this morning:

Pre-1980
Only 4 seaters
American Made
50% stock floor pans
Any 200 tread wear tires


Maybe 2 classes

Stock Chassis / Frame and no bigger that 275 tires

Modified chassis and mini tubbed any size tire

The easy way to go is work with the SCCA and make the CAM class the same as the Pro-Touring classes.

At the 2014 SCCA Solo Nationals there were 3 cars (5 drivers) in CAM-T and 6 cars (7 drivers) in CAM-C (all newer than 1980). I don't understand the thought of excluding all of those cars and drivers from the PT game?

My scenario isn't that much different than Mark's except my way doesn't turn anyone away, it just moves them to a more competitive class for them.


2014 CAM Contemporary Entrants by finishing position:
1 2011 Chevrolet Camaro (would be in CAM-W)
2 1982 Ford Mustang (would be in CAM-W)
3 1985 Chevrolet Monte Carlo (would be in CAM)
4 2005 Ford Mustang (would be in CAM-W)
5 1982 Ford Mustang (would be in CAM-W)
6 2005 Ford Mustang (would be in CAM-W)
7 1988 Pontiac GTA (would be in CAM)


2014 CAM-Traditional Entrants by finishing position:

1 1967 Chevrolet Camaro (would be in CAM-W)
2 1964 Chevy Nova (would be in CAM)
3 1969 Chevrolet Camaro (would be in CAM)
4 1969 Chevrolet Camaro (would be in CAM)
5 1964 Chevy Nova (would be in CAM)

In both the Pro-Solo Invitational and the Solo Nationals, the cars noted with CAM-W all ran pretty similar times while the CAM cars were also very competitive with each other. I see no reason to separate them out by model year.

In our local SCCA region in just CAM, my 1985 Monte Carlo raced very competitively all year long against the 2011 Camaro above and a 2000 Pontiac WS6. Once the Camaro put on a good set of tires and some mods, he started beating us like a drum, but the Pontiac and I were both on the exact same tires and brakes and we ran nearly identical times all year long.

Hyptothetical, floorpans were rotted out from rocker to rocker so I made new ones because I can.

Quite honestly, SCCA can barely handle its own rules, I really don't think they need input on USCA. I believe SCCA should be looking to USCA for help.


This from section 2 of the USCA rules.

This is 5 points that are just being given away anyhow. Use this as a "degree of difficulty" or something to that effect. If a horn, stereo, heater and fuel gauge can add up to 2 points certainly it is not unreasonable to use 5points to reward the guy who put above average effort into his car. It is the reponsibility of the car owner to "sell" his efforts to the DE judges. i.e. I moved the engine back 3" because race car and then I installed 75 pounds of sound deadener because street car.

I agree...and they are... Actually I believe there is a combined effort by all of the sanctioning bodies to work together to get them all on the same page.

Now, if we could just get Good Guys to relax on the Pre-73 only rules. :D I understand it for the car show purposes, but on the competition side they are leaving out a large portion of potential entrants (but maybe they are okay with that).

I saw my very first autocross run in person at the Scottsdale Good Guys show in March of 2010. I came back home and started trying to figure out how to do that with my car and haven't been to a Good Guys show since.

I have volunteered at both the Optima Challenge and RTTC events. I love going to see the pre 1980 cars run. I think that muscle cars are what made these events special. There are tons of late model cars racing in other series. The Optima Challenge was showcasing that the muscle cars with the help of the aftermarket parts were making them handle and perform like modern day cars. You can see how the muscle cars dominated this in the early years.

2008 Optima 6 out of 28 cars were newer than 1980
2009 Optima 11 out of 51 cars were newer than 1980
2010 Optima 13 out of 50 cars were newer than 1980
2011 Optima 19 out of 52 cars were newer than 1980
2012 Optima 24 out of 53 cars were newer than 1980
2013 Optima 25 out of 52 cars were newer than 1980
2014 Optima 61 out of 104 cars were newer than 1980

This started with pro-touring cars. I'd like to see them stay competitive in this series in some form. I'm not sure how you do it exactly.
As you can see the muscle cars are now less than half the field.

I'd also like to see the term Street car actually mean something. The car should pass a 50 state DOT inspection minus the emissions part.

Hey Ron! That's pretty insightful, thanks!

Ron, what's a ringer driver? Danny Popp, Mark Steilow, Mike Maier, Kyle Tucker, Robby Unser? Danny is a seasoned vet at auto-x and has won OUSCI twice, Mark is a GM engineer and accomplished driver, Mike is a 7 time SCCA auto-x champion and as you know ran multiple years in USAC, Kyle races BAJA in a class 10 buggy, and Robby has how many Pikes Peaks wins and USAC championships?