Chris got into the business because he told me one day (at my house working on Jason Rushforth's car) that he was thinking about going out on his own.... and I told him he was a nut job if he didn't at least give it a try. At his age - what did he have to lose (besides everything).... LOL

This is not all "quite" true (except the part about wrenching on Rushforth's car at my house). :>)

This is a cool post, The way I see it the guy that is getting $105.00 an hour, He has been in the business a long time, Regardless if he just started his business 5 or 10 years ago, He was a car guy working on rusty junk before he started his own high dollar shop. Yes your going to pay, but it's going to be done right, or you go to the guy half the price and it will take twice as long, and still probably be a sh#t job in the end.

Another thing is most people that have not worked in good old dusty bodyshops, Don't realize that there is some serious health issues that I would imagine every 20 year plus bodyshop tech is going to have, It also is a trade that most people have learned through the school of hard knocks, (that's how I have learned everything). I don't care what tech school you go to or how good the guy was you worked with, You either have the talent or you don't.

I started a 1999 a dealership bodyshop in 1994 and the labor rate was $32.00 bucks an hour, I left in 04 and it was $48.00. The people reading this post need to ask themselves before they start on a project, Can I really afford it, Make a budget, Would it be fair to say a $100,000.00 car pIroject 50 would be for parts and 50 for labor? I have over 40 in my Camaro and I have done all the work.

I guess where I am going with this is It is a dying trade, I would put money on it there are less techs coming in to the trade, then there are going out.

Sorry if my english is not right on I was reading hotrod magazines in that class!

I'm not a customer, can't afford to be. I work for a company but have my own accounts and deal directly with the customer. Sometimes it's a property manager often times it's a building owner. The relationship and trust is what makes the combination work. I have customers that I've had for the last 8-9 years and they've followed me from the original shop I was at. I'm not the best mechanic, not the fastest or even the prettiest. What I've got is my word, honesty and integrity go along way when dealing with people.

I'm actually surprised that the high end shops aren't more than $105. Are the guys doing the work, say a journeymen fabricator, making $50-$60 an hour?

Great conversation!

Not to mention that Riverton accent. LOL

Most of the ones I know are doing $30-$35 an hour. The good ones. But the good ones are always cooky or on meth. And the even better ones move shop to shop looking for a better wage.

I remember when I was working a gas station at 16 thinking what I would do to work at a hot rod shop. Where are those guys, those are the guys I want working for me. The hungry and passionate.

You've got to learn to qualify your customers. That first meeting when they're asking you all sorts of questions, interviewing you, you've got to be doing the same. Last thing you need is what you describe above. That outcome isn't good for anyone on either side.

That $30-$35 is at a shop that charges around the $80 mark?

The hungry and passionate guys got into IT or Porn, pays better!

YEA I'm with you same deal working at a gas station for 2.50/hour and trying to hotrod a 53 Ford puck up. Can you imagine on 2.50 an hour!! I started the truck when I was 14. sadly I never did finish it, but Where are those guys??? send them my way.

So here's my question for THE SHOPS with finding and keeping TALENTED people....

Brizio has guys that have been with him for 20+ YEARS. What's his secret? IDK - but I'd guess that it's a combination of things... a good living wage / insurance / steady work / nice warm dry place to work that is well lit / fun customers and projects / great personality to work with and for / proper shop tools... no drama queens... PRIDE in working there etc.

Now -- I know how I am -- and doing something a few times over and over makes it so much easier and less stressful. So maybe it's also that they mostly build similar projects which makes life easier. I'm not saying any or all of these ARE the reason - I'm just tossing it out there for discussion. They also have so much work that is steady - that guys get to "specialize" which also makes life nicer? They don't have to be installing a rear end in the morning and then asked to do a full wiring job in the afternoon. The wiring guy gets to wire... the mechanical guy gets to do mechanical... the sheet metal guy isn't asked to suddenly be a bondo spreader.

Dont want to get off topic but,your going to have to look in old scrap books of yourself to find those guys. My daughter is 14 and her friends, boys or girls, have 0 interest in what her Dad does for a living or those "old" cars he drives around.:shakehead:

What would you say is the average age there at Brizio's? I have 4 fulltime guys out in the shop now, three are in their late 40's and one is in his twenties. The work ethic tends to be so much better the older they are and seem much more loyal. Weve all been busting ass for years to have what we have and truly appreciate it. Most younger guys wont hesitate to jump ship for another 50 cents an hour, not looking at the big picture. Not saying all of them are like that, (my twenty something year old I have in the shop isnt) but its just been my observation in general.

One of the major differences has to be leadership. Employees must know you appreciate them and have their back. You lead with integrity and their place is secure within your business. It's also important to help them with their personal lives. When you do these things, it's much more likely to create loyalty. You must manage them, but leadership is the key.

However, it's a fact that you can't make a duck into an eagle. You can only hone and shape people so much. They must have the rough qualities you require up front.

The reason you can't find any youth interested in the car hobby is technology and laziness.

Things come to easy to kids now and kids aren't as tough. For any little thing that happens in schools new laws are passed. You can't even sing the national anthem anymore in schools?

I work as a leadman for a heavy equipment company and love it,but I'm more passionate about cars. Problem is when I was in my twenties looking for a hot rod shop to hire me they didn't want to offer much money because of my age so I found a line of work that would pay well, a diesel mechanic. I would love to work at a company that would pay for my welding and fab skills but would they pay me enough? Want to pay? Is the money steady? 401k? Life insurance? Bonuses for deadlines met? All those things are offered at most companies. I've been doing fabrication work at home for myself and friends now for years but could I make better money for a Hot rod shop ?

I agree that you have to treat your workers as family and not employees. I work graveyard shift with 3 other employees under me and they LOVE working for me. Most of them have been waiting years for a day shift position to open so they could work a "normal" schedule and guess what, a spot just opened up and was offered to me and I passed on it. All the guys on my shift passed on it as well because they love working together.

My point is most places now are focused on newer methods which do work but have forgotten about the old school ways that made people ; stronger, loyal,honest,respectful and care about the quality of there work.

Part 1 of 2

I've been in business my whole life. Just different stints or "adventures" as I refer to them. While there are a lot of keys to a successful business, attracting, developing & keeping good people are the top of the list.

While I don't claim to be the Wiz of Biz, I've had some success in this area of business & keeping key people long term.
• My key fabricator Lloyd Moore was with me 8 of the 9 years at Ron Sutton Race Engineering.
• John Musto was with me 13 of the 15 years at my consulting biz & bought the biz.
• Randy Chastain (who some of you met) was with me all 8 years at my multi-car race team operation.

While I know I'm FAR from perfect as a person, leader or business owner, I'd felt I should share a few key things I learned from my mentors, business training & experience ...
1. Business is about people. Period.

The keys to sales are finding outside people (prospective clients) who have a want or need ... getting crystal clear on their want/need (consultative process) ... and if your products and/or services truly fit ... make it easy for them to buy from you. (If your products & services are not a good fit ... pass ... even if they're willing to buy. Otherwise it will not end well.)

Crappy people provide crappy products, services & customer service. The keys to providing great products and/or services ... as well as great customer service ... is having great people. The keys to recruiting are finding great people to come inside our organization (prospective employees) who want to work somewhere rewarding & positive ... and have a place that is rewarding & positive to work (workplace culture). Then balance recruiting people (marketing/selling) with vetting them (making sure they are right for your team). We want to make our operation attractive to quality people, but not too quick or easy to get in.

2. We can't hire the people we need. Get over it. We need to hire good people, with the right beliefs & develop them into the people we actually need. To expect people ... any people ... to show up & do work they way we want & need is unrealistic. The key I learned was hiring sharp people with good attitudes & the correct aptitude for the position ... and provide them with training & hands on experience in a fashion they can learn ... and over time ... become the productive person we need them to be.

FYI: At my racing teams, I knew we couldn't hire people that worked at the high level we needed, so we had a full blown training program that consisted of 29 training classes. We trained a LOT of guys ... and watched them "sort out" over time. Most washed out ... some stayed a while & contributed ... and a few really shined. Those we nurtured & kept long term.

P.S. I had a guy ask me one time … “What if you train them & they leave?” My response was, “what if we don’t train them … and they stay?”

3. I found the 45/45/10 rule my Mentor taught me about people to be pretty accurate, in that:
a. 45% of people have negative mindsets, don't care & sabotage themselves & others.
b. 45% of people are conformers & will conform to the culture they are in ... negative or positive. they will work up to, or down to, the standards of the organization.
c. 10% of people flat out care ... about themselves, their career, their world, other people, the company they work for, etc.

Positive minded people hate to hear 45% of the population is that way. But in my experience & observations of the world & life, I have found what my mentor said to be true.

My Mentor taught me to shoot the 45% that don't care … and bury the bodies. Hire the other 45% that conform & build a positive culture for them to work & learn to care in. And of course … hire the 10% that care ... get them engaged in our overall visions ... and develop them into key assets inside our organization. My mentor taught me that we build a successful enterprise around these 55% ... if we provide them what they need ... and keep the cancerous 45% that don't care OUT.

During the hiring process, I occasionally found great people with excellent mindsets, attitudes, outlook, motivation, etc ... that did not have the aptitude for the position I was filling. These are 10 percenters & I looked hard to see if could build a different position around them, knowing they would make a positive difference in my company. Accept the fact we can't build our company out of 10 percenters only. There are not enough of them ... they don't fit well into all the roles we need ... and they're not perfect by any means. They're good people ... but just people ... with strengths, weaknesses, pros, cons, wishes, hopes, needs, etc. But I tell you ... I've gone to extreme lengths to recruit them.

I met a gal named Bobbi Bradley at a trade show once & after spending a half hour talking business (she worked for a company selling trade show booths) I knew she was a gem ... even amongst other 10 percenters. I didn't have an open position ... but I asked her anyway if she was open to a job offer ... and she said no. So I stayed in touch every month or so ... for two years. No exaggeration … not even a little … two years. When I heard she was in the job market ... I took her to lunch, toured our business with her, sent gifts to house for her & her husband, invited them both to dinner with my wife & I, etc, etc. She ran the office & operations of my consulting company for nine years until she retired. Directly & in-directly she was responsible for a 20% growth in my business. I sold that company soon after she retired.

4. A positive culture matters ... and it doesn't just happen on its own. We have to work at building a great place to work. The 55% want to work at a place that is fun ... so make it fun when we can. They want to be rewarded, so reward them when it merits. They want to be recognized for their contribution ... so recognize them every time it is worthy. They want to be respected ... so always treat them with respect. And this is key … encourage our people to do that with each other.

5. Low standards lead to failure. We don't get what we want ... we get what we tolerate. We don't always achieve every goal ... but we always achieve our "standards." We don't usually set out to define our standards. Our standards are defined by our action ... or inaction. If someone comes in late several times & you don’t deal with it … IT MUST BE OK to come in late. If you tolerate it … that becomes the standard. If your folks produce products with inconsistent quality … and you don’t rally the troops to address it … IT MUST BE OK … and the standard is set.

If we have a lot of waste, inventory shrinkage, customer turn over, complaints, etc, etc, etc. … and we don’t tackle these problems with the team … they become the standard. If we have a person, or persons, treating other people in our company with disrespect … it must be ok … because we allow it. We can’t stand idly by and expect the business, team, culture, sale & profitability to improve themselves.

Page 2 in the next post.

Page 2 of 2 - Continued from the previous post.

6. Tough decisions. A company with good culture, good people, profitability, etc ... just doesn't happen. It only happens when the leader & team are committed to it. And this is where it gets tough. If someone is not helping make this a better place ... they gotta go. I don't care if they are good at their job or not. If they are cancerous to the organization as a whole ... they gotta go. You get the roll of carpet & I’ll grab a shovel. No individual is more important than the whole team. If cancer had taken over your leg … you’d cut it off … and move on. Tough choices need to be made & good leaders make them.

I've fired "stars" several times when their self-centeredness was detrimental to the team. And the team rose as a whole when they all saw they mattered more to me than one star. Frankly I am very good at firing people. I hate it, but I’m good at it. When I am clear someone is detrimental to the team, to our vision & goals, to the financial livelihood of my family and all the families that work for me … that SOB is outta here. (P.S. You don’t have to be a jerk about it. I like to make people feel good about their newfound freedom & job opportunities. LOL)

7. Communication is critical. Our people are not mind readers. If we have bad people ... they don't care what we think, what we want or what we expect of them. But if we have good people ... they do care. But they don't know if we don't communicate it. If they are "on board" and have bought into our vision, goals & purpose ... then they need to know what we're thinking from time to time. Don't keep them in the dark. Talk about the goals & objectives. Talk about the strategies & direction to get there ... with them. Talk about the challenges & hurdles in the way ... with them ... and they'll feel a part of the team ... and help us solve them.

They can't meet our expectations if they don't know what they are. Communicate in positive ways what you want & expect from them. I’m not suggested we be sugar-coating Polly Annas … just don't be a jerk. When I ask my people to step up their game or improve at something ... I also ask them what they need to achieve that ... and I provide it … if it's realistic. Once they learn you’re all about improving & not just riding their backs, the good ones will “get it” & rise.

8. Chaos is no way to live or work. The 55% ... and our bottom line ... DEMAND organization. A company that lacks simple systems, smart structure and clear leadership ... will always struggle. Smooth running businesses have both smart people & smart systematization. From simple systems & training to make jobs easier ... checklists so people don't have to remember every detail & things don't get missed ... to clarity on how we do things.

9. The fish stinks from the head down. All businesses have problems & challenges. But if we the leaders (head of the fish) don't address & fix them ... that is on us … the leader. If we don't have a good culture ... that is on us ... get to work. It isn't going to fix itself. If we don't have good people ... that is on us ... get to work. If we don't have good teamwork ... it's because we haven't built them into a true team.

No one else is going to build the organization into a great company FOR us. But if you are a positive leader that your people respect, they will HELP you build the company. Just remember them ... with reward, respect & recognition along the way.

10. To be successful we need to work on our businesses … not just in them. To understand this, let’s define “working on the biz” & “working in the biz.” Working in the business … is doing the daily job that must be done to pay the bills. Making sales, taking care of customers, building & shipping product, billing & collecting, accounting, paying bills, etc. etc. All of this needs to be done to exist in business. But none of these things “improve” the business long term or big picture. In fact, if all of the leader’s time is working “in the business” … how CAN it improve?

“Working on the biz” is doing projects that have long lasting positive effects. I would like to say permanent, but nothing is permanent. Even a great system will become outdated & be replaced. Working on the business … is investing some of your four limited resources (time, energy, focus & tangible resources) for a long lasting return. Think ROI … Return On Investment.

The key areas are:
1. Learning (yourself)
2. Training (your people)
3. Systemization (of business activities)
4. Marketing (to create ongoing streams of business)

If you learn how to do something better … you will achieve more results in less time with less effort. This is the foundation for improving productivity. Achieving more in less time … and potentially with less mistakes, less risk & less cost. When you master how to do something key to your business … like hiring, marketing, time management, organization, etc … your results will be greater. If it took us 10 hours to learn excellent hiring practices … and it served us for the next 20 years of your business … we consider that a good ROI. If we take 2 hours to create a simple, repeatable system for an activity that happens in our business weekly … and it saves an hour a week … that’s a pretty good ROI. If we allocate one hour every week to train our staff to do their jobs better … and in the other 39 hours they improve their results 20% … that’s a pretty good ROI. If we learn about marketing & implement marketing strategies … one after another … that creates ongoing streams of new and/or repeat business … that’s a good ROI of our time.

I like to think of it this way. If I don’t work on improving my business … who will? Gnomes & Elves will not be coming in at night to systematize my operation. I know … because I asked them to … and they said their union contract forbade it. I reached out the Tooth Fairy & the Easter Bunny … but they said that was outside their scope of skills. I was going to ask Santa to build my business … because he has a pretty smooth running joint … but we all know he is busy nine months out of the year & vacationing in the Bahamas the other three. I asked my customers to help fix my business & that spooked them & they took their business elsewhere … creating new problems. So eventually I learned it was up to me.

My mentor taught me that all top business leaders work “on their business” most or all of the time. But they got there one step at a time. In small business we need to get there a step at a time too. He suggested I start at 90/10 … meaning I spent 90% of my time doing the things that paid the bills … so I could continue paying the bills. And 10% of my time dedicated (even scheduled in my calendar) to working on projects that would improve my business. This was when I was a VERY young man running my own chassis building business. I was working 80 hours a week then. He wasn’t suggesting I work 88. He was suggesting I work “in it” 72 & “on it” 8. I thought … “Heck, if I can’t make a living working 72 hours a week I guess I better quit” … so I bought in & did it. Over a surprisingly short time … I improved my business in every area … turning it from a “break-even & pray” situation to a very profitable operation. Over time, I shifted the work “in’ vs “on” ratio from 90/10 to 80/20 then 70/30 … and so on until I was 100/0 … and worked less hours. That is when I really made money. I went from zero profit to making $10k a month … in the 80’s … building race cars. For a young guy, I was on cloud nine.

There's more keys my mentors taught me that I'm forgetting ... but these 10 key things helped me build good businesses … that I felt would be worthy of sharing.

:cheers:

.

So true!

An experienced estimator will know what to look for and also read the customer.

As of now, in CA, vehicle reconstruction falls into a grey area as far as the BAR is concerned. There are no set times for most of the work that we we do. That is why I try to stay within an industry standard. If Blake over at Speedtech, Steve over at EBMC charges 40 hours to do a mini tub, that's what I charge.
Early on we did a time study and most seems standard.

Right now the thing that kills a business is the for mentioned creep. The customer wants to add or increase modifications. That little added step may push 3 of the next customers in line back a month and increase my profit/loss into the red for that period of time.

OP...make a good accurate project plan, stay the course and keep the jobs coming in no matter how small the job.

Ron, this item in particular reminds me of something read a few months back from Jesse James, the previous owner of West Coast Choppers. What you are saying embodies so much more than just this specific area of organization but thought it was good enough to share.

PopeofWelding (instagram post) Preparation is the Key. It's not just about just having a shop and the right tools. It's about being prepared Mentally, and physically to do your best work. At the end of every work day, clean up, put tools away, make lists, wipe down your machines(even your welder). Make sure you have material for tomorrow. Now Take it a step further. Before you go to bed lay out your work clothes and boots so you don't have to fish for them in the dark. Because your getting an early start. This is the path to doing your best work. Clean Shops and Clean Minds produce the cleanest Work. #jessejamesFollowing

While life indeed gets in the way some times and keeps us from the clean up and prep processes, the spirit of the note is fantastic.

Thanks for posting Ron. This thread is great. For someone starting a business in this field, I appreciate this type of honest feedback. Alot of what you posted are principles I have picked up over the years looking at good and bad businesses. You however added so much more to it with your post. I feel like printing it and making it a wall hanging for my office.

When I look at shops in this industry that always tend to blame the customers for their inability to make money, I see why they are where they are. I think you can apply some of your keys regarding employees to choosing customers as well. In alot of cases, you can tell almost immediately what kind of customer you are dealing with. One of my most respected colleagues from the past gave me a piece of advice that I think is worth adding here. When I told him I would have a business one day, he said "Remember, It's OK to say NO". He meant that with regard to customers. You don't have to work with anyone you feel is not a good fit for your business.

Thanks to the OP and to all who are posting in this thread as well. This is a very timely discussion. At least for me. :thankyou:

Killer stuff Ron. Thanks for sharing that with us..

Churned a couple thoughts...

1. Many top companies are now testing their applicants to see where they fit into your 45/45/10. Here is a test that determines optimism vs. pessimism and hope. http://web.stanford.edu/class/msande...earnedOpt.html

Pessimists aren't all bad, I was one. However, they don't belong in many positions. An accountant being a good example of the right fit. Optimists fit into the culture, bounce back from adversity, and are more productive over time. They also tend to reduce turnover in the company.

2. Work on yourself EVERYDAY:

Physical: That means your physical health through exercise and nutrition.

Mental: Your mental attitudes of mind through learning and the right influences. Gaining and refining new skills like leadership. The awareness of your tendencies, strengths, and weaknesses. Managing your emotions.

Spiritual: Your deepest values like Faith, Family, Love, Integrity, etc.

The greater person you become, the higher your company can climb.

Read the customer Vince,, 8 years in the Snap On Tool Business,, You learn to read the person real fast, I could quiz them in the tool truck for about 5 minutes, Where you from, Why you hear, Where you going, not exactly like that but you can learn a lot from a person just normal conversation.

This is a great thread and some fascinating posts.

So, what are you looking for in a customer? What signs show a good fit or a poor one?

Kevin

Whoa :wow: :wow:



http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/w...ead_killer.jpg

Bad question?
Kevin

Hi Kevin ...

I am as interested as you to hear some of the shop guys chime in. I think being Sunday, they all took a day off from the thread. I have an opinion, based on my experience, but it may not match up with other builders.

IMHO ... there are a small percentage of bad customers & a larger percentage of good customers ... but just because they're a good customer doesn't mean you two (shop & customer) will fit well together.

I think the list of things that might make someone a bad customer for the shop is pretty obvious:
A. Can't afford what needs to be done
B. Unrealistic of what they should pay for what they get
C. Doesn't pay on time
D. Changes scope of project often
E. Not clear on what they want
F. Clear on what they want, but unclear in communicating it

I think the list that makes good customers not a good fit for the shop or vice versa is a little more cloudy for the customer & shop owner:
1. Style of build wanted differs from what shop is really good at
2. Level of build ($$$) wanted differs from what shop offers
3. Timeline wanted/needed by customer differs from what shop wants/needs
4. Involvement level desired by customer differs from what shop owner wants

I recently had a prospective customer that REALLY wanted a Street-Warrior from me. But the more we talked, the more I got clear he wanted a lot of personal involvement in the build and what I consider a "full custom" Pro-Touring style build where every detail is discussed with & decided on by the customer. I don't build full custom Pro-Touring cars. I consider my Street Warrior cars to be "semi-custom" race cars with street amenities ... where the client picks body style, colors, powertain options, interior & exterior options ... and we build it. Frankly if the customer is picking the parts, it may not perform as well. And if we have to stop & discuss all the little details like rivet color, A/C vents, switch style, etc ... we can't build & deliver it in 12 months, like we guarantee.

I am positive he will be a GREAT customer for a shop that builds full custom Pro-Touring cars. But he & I would have been frustrated with each other, because I don't do ... couldn't do ... what he really wanted.

I think where a lot of shops get in trouble ... and where customers get in pickles with shops ... is they didn't really figure out if they were a good fit for each other. Those situations usually end bad.

Just my 2¢


:cheers:

.

I try to see if the customers expectations can line up with their reality. It amazes me how many people want their car to be the best of the best and really have no concept of just the parts cost of what they want. Usually what they expect to invest in the entire project is way less then the parts total.

Dealing with the customer is the biggest and most important element. Employees are a close 2nd. Customers provide the work, Communication Education and Efficiency provide the profit.

Like Ron said, not every customer is a fit for every builder. You need to find a builder you like and you feels understands you and you feel they want what you want. After all it is you car. Every person thinks differently and experiences each situation from their perspective. And I think it goes the same way with a customer. You have to pick some one you think you can make happy. I think that same 45/45/10 percent has to also work out with customers.

Something to chew on... and this is a hypothetical example but not too far from reality.... A customer comes in and has completely reasonable expectations, a good starting point, say a running driving rust free car as an example....

Spends North of 200K building a PT car with mostly off the shelf (insert vendor of choice here AME, TCI DSE) parts..... and A+ paint job..... A+ interior... ect...

What's that car worth..? 100K..... why would anyone do that? In this thread I see several shop owners basically saying I need customers with either pretty clear expectations and deep pockets.. or unclear expectations and bottomless pockets....

I am looking to solve the equation where a customer has reasonable expectations timeline and budget... Yet, can't seem to find a shop that won't either not deliver... deliver late, deliver poor quality or try to put out a lien on a build ballooned into 3X the budget ...

The way I am hoping to get to that place is to help builders become better at business process..

I would say that person does not exist. The reason being is that there are a ton of shops that deliver on time and with great quality. If said person cannot find that shop there is some reason why they have not been able to find that shop. They exist all over the country and may not be in your area. They are not the cheapest and the may not be able to put some one at the front of the line waiting list to meet their time line due to a waiting list. If the shop does quality work they were probably busy long before you called and have prior obligations to deal with. When it's your turn they will give you the same treatment they give all their other customers if you treat them the way most of their customers treat them.

A complete build does not get to 3x over budget over night. A small job like rust repair or some kind of small task can quickly get to 3 times the budgeted amount as it might have been thought the task could be handled in 1 day and it took 3. But if a guy expects to spend 200k and there is final bill of 600k, that does not happen either. There is no shop that sends the owner only one final bill at the end. It gets to that point one bill at a time, We bill our customers every 2 weeks. And there is no possible way to build even a 200k car in 2 weeks. For a car to go that far over budget 1 of few things has to happen.

1. The end result of the car is not what the customer wanted.
At some point the customer has to ask, Did I really order that triple decker spoiler and twin turbo LS engine when all I wanted was a nut an bolt resto.

2. The original budget was not feasible.
This can be the builders fault and should also be a customers fault. Lots of shops do the bait and switch. We pass on quite a few jobs due to the fact I'm brutally honest in the fact this stuff is expensive.

I had a guy not to long ago want to build a 100k Chevelle after seeing the black Fairway Chevelle. The Fairway Chevelle has a Billet Custom dash, Grip Equipped Wheels, Mini tubbed, triple adjustable shocks, huge brakes, the whole deal. I said I can probably build a 100k Chevelle, but it may not be the Chevelle you think 100k should get you as the Fairway Chevelle costs more then 100k to achieve that result.

I had another lady come in that wanted to build a nice driving 67 Camaro. She did not care about all the pro touring stuff, but she had to have this old Camaro she had had in high school. She really should have bought a done Camaro. But she had history with the car, so in a way she was committed. I told he 100k was a pretty reasonable number for what she wanted complete and turn key she could drive any where. Her and her husband thought I was out of my mind, so they went on down to road to another local shop that does the bait and switch and in the end the car probably now has 125 or more for a much less of a car that now another shop is fixing what the bait and switch shop lacked. The bait and switch shop totally over sold her on stuff she did not need and really ruined what she had.

3. OR Project Creep.
Project creep happens with every single project. Times change, Tastes change, technology changes.

We built a truck for an owner who wanted it to be a basic driver for his wife and 20 months later was a Goodguys Truck of the Year winner. That cost many times more then we thought in the beginning. That same customer went on to build many more cars with us and has many more for to do in the future. Heck right now we are building some crazy steel fire pit structure for his back yard.

I think to no ones fault, sometimes customers don't realize what they really want until its starts to take shape in front of them.

So not to over generalise... but in in Cali and a few other parts of the US like the south east there are lots of shops and that supply side of the equation adds to the customers "power" be elsewhere... as in the other 90% of the country.. its not the case.... Trust me the scenario were a customer is happy to spend what is required and expects a specific outcome is not just real.. its common.

A complete build does not get to 3x over budget over night.... Correct...
But far too many times shops don't bring that issue forward until its too late of the $$ is spent..

I guess, I do not follow. I get billed weekly or every two weeks depending on the amount of work done on my car. I only pay when I see pictures of the work and progress so I know exactly where my $ went. I do not see how the spending could get out of hand if you see a bill weekly or bi weekly. If you see that bill and it is higher than you expect for the amount of work done...pull the car out and maybe you are out a couple thousand bucks and not 100s of thousands. Seems pretty simple

For example.. you as a customer budgeted for 100k which was driven from an estimate which encompasses tasks 1-25. For simplicity sake lets assume the 100K is broken into equal tasks @ 4K per task and you put down 25%...... 25K.

You get an invoice after 1 month that indicates that 4 tasks are complete but all of the 25K is gone....... which based on the simple math.. your 100K project is now a 156K project... ~60% increase in cost with no increase in scope... :G-Dub:

Edit: the same thing can happen in smaller increments.. (weekly invoice) in fact I would suggest that when it does the variance from estimate will be larger in the end... you will just know about it sooner.... Death of a thousand cuts :-)

I follow what you are saying but there are safe guards built into the weekly or bi weekly bills. First, I never would put down any amount of money for labor! The shop should only bill you for labor DONE not labor that is going to be done so NO 25k is out of pocket. If a shop bills me $5,000 for a task that was suppose to cost $2,000...my car is gone and I am only out $3,000. If I keep paying these bills that are higher than agreed...that solely lies on me

So if a customer goes to Sizzler for dinner, is it fair for him to bitch and complain that his juicy New York Steak ( as advertized on tv ) does not taste the way the juicy steak did that he had at Tahoe Joes or Ruth Chris last week. The steak at Sizzler is 8.95 with sides and salad bar, the steak at Ruth Chris was 39 bucks without any sides or salad bar. But they both say they taste great on TV. Just because some one does it cheaper does not mean its the same result for the same item.

I guarantee the guy who eats at Ruth Chris would never even give Sizzler a second thought for a good steak even after seeing the commercial. And the guy who thinks the steak at Sizzler is amazing would be angry at the prices at Ruth Chris.

There is a market for every level of service. You don't expect a great burger of the year quality burger at Burger King do you? Even though it says you can have it your way on the sign.

And here is the Rub... look up a couple of posts.. if you had a shop that sourced an ill fitting quarter and as such spent 3X the time budget fitting it.. then you would have this exact scenario.... this is exactly the point I am making....

Looking for a process where projects are delivered on time, on budget and with quality...
:poke:

That's the point exactly, Quarter panels all fit each car in a totally different way. The spec for new cars today is totally different then they were in the 50's 60's etc. You may be dealing with a car that was wrecked or jumped across the river at some point. These cars all saw a different life and in obvious response are all going to fit differently.

If a guy does not want that attention to detail on their car they should go find a shop that sees no issue with a replacement quarter panel that does not fit perfectly or look exactly like the stock part and will just weld it on an get it close because that is good enough to satisfy the customer. Heck that is what bondo is for RIGHT.

OH THAT"S FINE WE CAN JUST PUT BONDO ON IT.

Or the other one.

NO ONE WILL EVER SEE THAT ONCE IT'S DONE. SO IT DOESN'T MATTER.

My customers demand more and understand that bolt on parts don't always bolt on and that reproduction sheet metal almost never ever fits like it should even though it's brand new. And parts almost never fits any 2 cars the same way.

My customers expect more then a "Sizzler" Mentality on their projects. Many Many people are happy the car car just runs and drives descent.

I track what you are saying but on the flip/reverse side...if a shop quotes/estimates a job for you at $3,000 but they do it for $2,000(rust was not as bad etc.) do you still pay them the $3,000 estimate?

This is where experience will come into play.

The way I see it. If I inspected your car, you were handed a recommended list of work and parts required then issued a quote than I am obligated to that quote. If something goes array because I ordered an ill fitting part then within reason that is on me and my shop. Will not be passed onto my customers.

If a customer supplied a part, I will then quote for fitment and charge accordingly to what I know from past experience.

The only way a customer may go over budget is if they add or expand on that job. Either way it should not be a surprise at the end.

Total cost, customer expectations and payment plans should be settled at the time of deposit and increases should be discussed at the times they are necessary.

There are instances where you may have an open repair order with a customer because they are not sure what direction they are going to go. Most times they figure it out real fast after the project gets to a certain point. These should be handled carefully and make sure the customer knows what may happen and is aware of possible cost.

Yes yes yes agree 100%. :G-Dub: as you see your practice is not universal :king:

I read this every time it comes back up and it gets me to thinking for a while. I really want to get back into building cars full time, but I won't do it like any of the shops I worked for. So, it's a worthwhile discussion for me.

I though about what was the original question again and I think it's these snips.
Does anyone ever want less than they can afford or want to pay more than what they think something is worth? In this day and age, are there any craftsmen/artists that make what they should or businesses make more money than they need to justify staying in business? The people that have the disposable income to build at $250K car didn't get there by being frivolous with their money. Everybody shops for the cheapest deal to get more bang for the buck. The only shops that get away with charging to much are the ones that have "status symbol appeal" mostly because they are on TV.

If someone had their car planned out 100% before they got into it and stuck with it over the one or two years required to build, they would grow bored and sell the car before completion. Technology changes quicker than cars can be built, financial situations change over the course of a year or two, things don't always work in reality like they do in your head. Scope creep is inevitable.

Body shop hell is tradeoff for wanting cheap and good. If you want it quick it costs money or it's shotty work.

Problem 1: While this is understandable that you wan't to try to contribute. Unless you can save more money than you cost it isn't going to work. You are going to have to justify your salary by saving money elsewhere and I just don't see that happening if you don't produce. The money in this business just isn't there to justify more overhead. But you haven't given a good enough description of how you could save a shop money. How will you sell yourself?

Problem 2: Yes, this definitely happens. I think there are more shops than there need to be. So for the lower quality shops, whether through inexperience or dishonesty, they sell jobs way under their realistic cost just to keep money flowing. I worked for a guy that failed even while covered up in business and investors.

Problem 3: When you know there is uncertainty, you plan for the worst. This is an area where experience shines. Let's say you bring in an old body covered in paint. Who knows what hides underneath. Quote replacing every panel on the car. If the cost scares of the customer, you saved yourself grief. If they stick around and you end up only replacing half the panels, you save money and please the customer.

Problem 4: They do, you just don't have dedicated project managers or time to keep a project schedule. Good employees and shop owners look ahead and plan things out in advance without devoting all their time to it. If a car costs $250K to build, how much of that money can be dedicated to a project manager. There are books on this subject about what percentage of a budget should be allocated to what. I think it's less than 4% for all management on a project. You do the math, but at 4% you have to turn 1.25mil to justify a $50K salary if that's all you do.

Sure, there are always problems worth solving when the ends justify the means. With what a business expert or PM demands for salary these days it isn't going to happen in the car world. Most shops can barely afford to pay a craftsmen/artist what they are worth.

In the end, the car is not a money maker. There is no return on investment, so there is no justifying anything that is done, especially not extra managers.

Through my own frustrations at work, I have plenty of "stories" about how project managers add so much cost and confusion to a job. I've done jobs (engineer side) where the physical work took 2 days and $100K in labor and parts. But there were 7 PM's, two executives, 2 engineers, 3 contractors with PM's and engineers and the months of worthless meetings and indecisiveness that cost $500K. Honest truth, that really happened recently. It took me longer to make drawings and revisions than it would have taken to do the actual work. No mangers added value, in reality they took away from any value.

I think lean and agile work well in high volume mfg. When everything is special, how can you be lean with equipment of labor? Most shops are already lean on parts inventory, they keep none and order only when it's needed. The machinery required to build a car is as flexible as possible. Farming out all the machining, laser cutting etc.. will not save time and eventually it will cost more than owning the machines. You can't rent the equipment required and you can't pick up employees at home depot in the morning. Most employees in this field are very flexible. There might be specialists in sheetmetal, machining and other areas, but they can usually do assembly, wiring and other things also. Where would you lean out a car shop and still do real work there? I have my own opinion about what lean and top heavy management has done to manufacturing in the US and it isn't good.

If you want to start a shop. Go ahead and start one. It will take you years to build up to a full build for a customer. Your going to start with small jobs, to keep the lights on. You most likely will have to do a shop car build to get your name out there. And a talking point for future customers. That will give you plenty of time to hone your project management skills, before you get into big builds.

$250k keeps getting tossed around here as a pro-touring build. I don't think I saw a car at SEMA built by a shop for that cheap.
I personally think that high end shops are oversaturated here in the U.S. I think you'd have more success opening a shop building nice quality drivers.

More thoughts after recovering from the book I just wrote. Can you generalize your principles, theory and practices putting it together in the form of a two day workshop? You could have a class before or after SEMA or PRI. That may be the best way to contribute. Put some spreadsheets and canned schedules together and offer it as a software package. Sounds like you have that one covered.

I would have to agree, when a shop quotes a 1/4 panel install it is what 32hrs??? depending, I think the depending part is the KEY, how is the shop to be responsible for an ill fitting 1/4?? maybe the car doesn't fit the 1/4??

Heres an example we are working with right now.

69 Camaro customer wanted all the glass changed, wanted it tinted, cool before installing the glass we had them tinted (this makes sense ) you get a better quality tint job right??? install the windows, begin aligning, goes ok they are a bastard to get right.....right???
customer picks up car on a trailer, drives it a week later and washes it there is a leak on the pass side door window. brings it back, start realigning it. hummm, take the window out lay it on a FACTORY side glass, the replacement is Bowed in the upper rear corner by 3/8 of an inch. call customer to get another side glass no problem, shows up EXACTLY the same, call customer he calls supplier, supplier doesn't know what to do sends another glass from a different manufacture......... still waiting to get the window.
so who covers all that time???
I am interested to hear.

IMHO they are responsible for the output which needs to account for +- X% variance from the estimate based on experience..... Again using the lumber example... if you hired a GC to build you a home... they showed up with 2X material cost because the lumber they bought was 50% rotted you would tell them to pound sand...

Again.. you own the output... personally I would treat customer supplied materials like cancer.... and if you HAVE to accept them... then the customer needs to own any time spent making parts they supplied work..