And the Sutton secret awesome hot sauce sprinkled on cheese balls can make even Ron Myers (TBD) and Sieg (already determined) FAST... just ask Sieg. :rules:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...psc249ce00.jpg

^ creative editing right there :secret: :D

:cheers: Davey

Fyi...
 

First off, nice stuff Ron!

Second off, sorry in advance for self promotion below but couldn't resist (would almost give you a set if you want to cut off those proprietary units you have now:slingshot:)

Thirdly, I think this car may actually need/justify a set of my fabricated steel C6 Uprights :popcorn2:


For what its worth in regards to above responses, I am machining a few sets next week of this type rear setup (C6 Flange end), and could easily machine a few more if anyone is interested....

Ok, back to Ron's build!

As always, love the detailed explanation Ron! One simple question...

If the top link comes all the way up to the roll bar of the car, how will / do you isolate it from the outside of the car? It will pass through a firewall where the rear seat was, but given that you want internal access to adjust it, where would you seal off the rear firewall to isolate the interior of the car?

Probably a simple answer that I'm just not thinking of at the moment...

Hi Bryan,
Great question. there are three different ways we have done what you're asking about. The original illustration I provided Ron Myers (that he posted) did not show how we do that. The illustration at the bottom shows the option Ron Myers choose.

In this case, Mike Tolle of Tolle Fab will build the upright tube that the top link adjuster clamps to (light blue bar in the illustration) ... with a bottom curve in it. This curved tube butts & welds to the back side of the 2"x3" crossmember. There is horizontal cross bar from one leg of the main hoop to the other. It is also curved to set it back. The upright tube attaches to this horizontal cross bar. You can see them both (light blue) in the illustration.

We do this to set the upright tube & the toplink adjuster back behind the main hoop. Then the green dotted line shows where the aluminum sheet metal work goes ... sealing the rear suspension off from the cockpit. The top link adjuster sticks through the sheet metal with a special bushing. It is just behind the passenger seat (remember ... the top link is offset) for easy access & tuning.

Make sense?



.

Way to bring it Ron!

Happy New Year :cheers:

I'd like to see one modification to the design. A major adjustment available to the driver. He'll clearly be out of excuses when this one hits the road in his golden years. :lmao:

Nope. Weld brought em... and he went home with em. What happened in between is anyone's guess. :hitaxeonthehead:

Got it... Makes perfect sense.

One other question while I'm here... From a top-view, are the 2 lower arms parallel to each other, or do you angle them inward towards the front of the car? You have likely touched on this in a post somewhere. I'm not sure if anyone else makes them this way, but the Lateral Dynamics 3-link that a few cars here ran angled the LCA's inward as they went forward. I'm not sure if I've ever known what the reason for that was...

^ Bryan great question and one of the reasons I picked Ron's 3 link design as his are parallel. Early on I sent Ron web pics of the LD design. Ron pointed out that the angle of the LCAs would induce rear roll steer: good for rotating the rear on an autoX, not so good for high speed corners. Further, the higher speed the more roll steer induced. Now, I'm no expert but I'm thinking ideally that's not what I'd want. Better IMO to put in a rear suspension that keeps the rear planted as best as possible, tune the front for turn in and mid corner balance and let the rear compliment it. Obviously everything else plays into it (shocks, sways, balance and tuning), but that's what made sense to me.

I really like the LD fit and finish, but also think Ron's design is an improvement.

Good stuff Jay!

Dude, the longer the build the more time to reload on excuses. Just ask Weld. :D

:cheers:

You and Gaetano need to get together and coordinate your excuses why I passed you both on leaf springs and skinny tires. LOL

^ right on queue :lol:

Your not the only car still on leaf springs Mario.

You shouldn't have any problem passing Ron. Just be sure to have the back bumper back on your car when I'm pushing you passed him. :lol:

Nutttin' wrong with bump drafting but be careful what you wish for.

:welcome3:

:BlahBlah:

In all seriousness, the front of these old cars is usually the major weakness, not the back. I think this is great to maximize your rear dynamics but you better make the carpet match the drapes.

I hear you Todd. :knokwood:

Ron always preaches that we are always chasing front end grip and often looking to reduce rear grip to match. Up front is a JRS front end. C6 spindles and coilovers like almost every other aftermarket subframe but is a conventional low travel high roll deal.

Are the Ron's making any changes to that or leaving it as it was when Dave and I picked it up in Maine and delivered it to Ron and Brian in OC.:popcorn2:

I see he's running the same rear tires I run all around mine....

There was a huge thread (2002) on CC when Mark was doing his design and they acutally angled the lower links uphill to counter act the roll steer. There was a bunch of adjustiblity with the set up.

I believe it was discussed that it was optimum to run the link parallel to keep the car going straight.

First of all I hate that f'n pic.

Turn in is good on my 69 but it needs work. Rear roll center is too high, front to rear TRS is off. I think David Pozzi's recipe falls right in line with what Ron S looks for, more caster than KPI.

I had Jake build in 10* of caster (to be verified) on this sub. Will any first gen Camaro out perform a modern c6? Nope. Weight, weight distribution, aero, million$ in GM engineering. Can it get better than I've seen so far on my 69? Ron has measured it out and thinks so. 500 lbs lighter, so that's the plan.

Is he having you changing the UCA mount position on that sub? :poke:

:rolleyes:

Even with more caster the front still has minimal travel and a steep camber gain to go with the low travel. Plus the front end lacks any of the real adjustability for tuning such as Ron is building into the rear.

Are you planning on having Ron rework the front clip to make it as tunable as the rear or to allow for a true long travel low roll set up?

500lbs lighter than the 69:headscratch: How much does DP weigh? Did you ever scale her?

:cheers:

Photoshop is your friend, my friend.

:D



Enjoying the tech in this thread. :thumbsup:

Would not be too hard, just time = expensive.

Ron knows where the rear roll will be and its range, so matching the front would not be too bad. Set the front to an optimum RC height while controlling IC's IIRC the change will be in the upper control arm length and mounting position. The LCA and spindle are set.

^^ This is hilarious. You guys need your own TV show. :popcorn2:

As the top link changes length that will change pinion angle. There is so much discussion about getting that angle correct, I wonder what the effect is of it changing every time the gas pedal moves. Educate me please.

What's the plan to laterally locate the axle. I assume a Watts. Do you have any pics of this piece and how it sits within the total rear package?

You sure about that? Payton thought the same thing.... :peepwall:

Hi Craig !



First, just a reminder that this is a track car, not a cruiser.

We run just enough static negative pinion angle that the driveline & pinion yoke are in line under hard acceleration ... which is always the goal with performance & race cars. The amount of static negative pinion angle required varies with each torque absorber application, but they are all in the 3°-5° range.

:trophy-1302:

Hi Steve!


It will be a very trick watts link set-up with 6" of roll center adjustment. Photos will come when Mike Tolle is installing it.

:cheers:

I thought I read this here in this thread, but I can't locate it at the moment... You (Ron) mentioned doing a rear axle with a 13" high upper link from the axle centerline. Looking at the side view of the axle being built here, based on these angles, that would go right through the crossmember for the rear coilovers. How do you deal with that?

Related question... If you draw a straight line between the upper and lower link mount points, it doesn't pass through the centerline of the rear axle. Why is this? Is there a specific reason that the 2 are located that way (behind the axle centerline)?

So many questions, I know... I am loving learning about these details, so thanx as always for sharing so generously!

Got it... Thanx!

Did I read that you are looking at relocating the UCA mount points? Given how Jake builds these mounts, there is a bit of room to move the mount if you fill in the existing holes.

Also, adjusting caster and camber was relatively easy with this setup. Jake set mine up and machined spacers from 1" stock for the initial alignment. Eric and I used shims to adjust the alignment until we got to the point we wanted (based on Ron's specs), then Eric just machined a new set of spacers to those thicknesses. Worked out pretty well.

While I hate reading the story of Payton's project with Jake, I will say that the measurements on my subframe from Jake were pretty spot on when I recorded them for Ron. At least as accurate as I could measure them. Ron and I never discussed moving the UCA mounts, although I didn't present that as an option (and wouldn't really want to at this stage unless it would make a dramatic difference). Ron has all of my numbers along with one other JRS subframe I think, so I'm sure he will suggest the best changes as appropriate.

I guess it's a good thing we got it out of Jakes before he got in deeper. :knokwood:

It still seems with the Sutton designed offset three link with adjustable on the fly instant center and roll center out back and Jakes stuff up front the carpet won't match the drapes.

:cheers: