I've had 'em at 9 O'clock (looking from the rear) and 12 O'clock..

I think it's mostly that you don't put 'em in the bottom half where stuff could hit 'em etc. better to keep them up and protected. And not to far back from the collector. I think it needs to stay within the first 18" IIRC. But why not put it in the collector.... is my thinking.

Here's a picture of the bottom of the car. The recommendations I have seen are that the sensor should be about 8" downstream of the collector for this sensor and system. As I understand it, the narrowband sensors need to be as close to the engine as possible, as they rely on the engine heat to heat the sensor element. The wideband for the Holley is self-heating, and it actually needs to be far enough downstream that it doesn't overheat from the engine's heat.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...pstgtlzmsk.jpg

I'm not an expert on them at all Bryan -- I've installed a few -- and haven't had any issues with this sensor where I've placed them. I think the heated version heat themselves to about 900*..... I've even seen them where they're probably only reading two of the four cylinders and they read just fine. They need to be burned clean - so "hot" is a good thing.

Some guys run "dumps" with basically a muffler not far back from the collector and a very short downturn pipe on the end. In that case I'd want it far enough from that "opening" that it wouldn't see any reversion - but your system has full pipes so that's not an issue worth mentioning.

My basic understanding is that you want them hot - and in full stream of the exhaust....

I've had faulty MAP sensor -- that was a PITA! And I've had TWO faulty TPS.... one that would just "break down" after driving for awhile. Had to do data logging several times to find that one.

Before dumping a bunch of money re-sleeving the block I hope your aware that the LS2 block is probably the best bang for the $$$$ in LS performance. Pricing a new block at Summit.....they are $1120.00. I would reuse your existing parts and buy a set of shaft rockers before spending the $$$ for an LS3 upgrade.....I take it the motor is pretty low mileage and all other 7 cylinders are in good shape. Sleeves are great if you plan on dumping a big load of N2O or blower/turbo upgrade, if your staying normally aspirated there isn't any big advantage in installing a set of sleeves. You might want to check over on the Corvette Forum, LS1 Tech or other sites for a quality LS builder if you don't already know of one. Good luck on the rebuild, I really like your Bird!

Shaft rockers are unnecessary in his application and you're just adding weight to the valvetrain which will require more spring to control it. I'm still using upgraded stock rockers on mine with a stud girdle and spinning it to 8,000 rpm with no issues.

The 02 should be 6-8" back from the last tube in the header, if you put it in the collector it will read the cylinder it's closest to.
I'm not sure that it is rich, after looking at the pics I suspect the oil it's ingesting from the pcv is what you're seeing on the pistons. You need to address your venting as this can cause a whole host of problems. What pcv vent are you using? Most, if not all of these do not work properly. I put a restricter in the vacuum line to slow the velocity. I would also vent both valve covers to a catch can. The LS engines have horrible windage problems and need a lot of topend ventilation to deal with it. The path you're headed down with a larger stroke is going to make it worse since you're basically installing a bigger fan in the crankcase.

Agreed, all that most systems do on these LS engines is fill the intake with an oil like gel. Bryan, have you looked at the plugs? Spark plugs are tattletales, and reading them has become a lost art. This engine shut off at 5500 I think you said, so it would be ideal to take a close looksey at the plugs.

Agreed on the oil windage. I ened up using 2 catch cans on my car to solve the problem. Just like Tim stated, you will need to pull from both valve covers and from the valley tray. Kurt Urban ( http://kurturbanperformance.net/home/ )is the man on the LS stuff, let Tim guide you to the promosed land.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...b9_low_res.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...c4_low_res.jpg

WHAT HE SAID.....

"to do items" on your list...


Talk to Urban

Talk to Tim

Go to Salt Lick for lunch... or Franklins...

See ya at the Lonestar Roundup... 18 or us are driving down for it.

AEM referenced condensation effecting the sensor long-term, so the downward angle allows it to drain off vs in.

Downstream from the collector gets a better mixture blend from the individual primaries......as my brain perceived it when I cut the hole in my system.

Tim - Is this the case for all versions of the LS platform?

Has the issue been resolved with the new LT1/4 and rumored LTX & LT5?

Yes -- all of that -- I've seen people put them "where convenient" which meant right where any condensation would pool.

When you look at the various locations in various factory installs... they're all over the map... so I've never gotten a "clue" about the utmost perfect location. I think - High and dry - downstream of the collector for a good clean sample - and most should be good.

I could tell a funny story about the guy that put an LS2 in - and didn't bother to hook up ANY PCV... and spent quite a bit of money trying to find out what was "squealing"... including removing and replacing the transmission... Ross Perot summed it up best. That giant sucking sound....


++++++++++++++++++++++++



So Bryan.... you live in TEXAS and don't go to The Salt Lick... and haven't ever heard of Don Hardy Race Engines... which means you've never heard of Don Hardy. That's two strikes.

You also have a real good LS tuner.... that builds some serious bad ass CTSV's and late model Corvettes... up near Dallas/Ft Worth... ADVANCED MODERN PERFORMANCE in Arlington


http://www.advancedmodernperformance..._services.html

That's the same basic info that I received when we placed it where we did. At this point, I'm almost 100% convinced that the mis-connected PCV catchcan is my problem. The oil has likely spattered on the sensor element, preventing it from getting a true reading.

Agreed. The problem is simple: we connected it backwards. Just a simple screwup, and it's already being addressed since the can is off the car. We have to remake one hose, and it's all fixed. D'oh! :hitaxeonthehead:

The Mike Norris unit. I wasn't aware that there were general problems with the aftermarket cans?

Good idea.

Not sure how to do this... Currently, the driver's side is connected to the air cleaner as the input. The passenger side is also connected to the air cleaner as input. The barb on the valley is connected to the catch can, and the other side of that is connected to the vacuum port on the TB. Those are what will be corrected when we reassemble.

From all I read on the subject, this is how it's supposed to be connected I think... I want to get the vapors out of the valley, and the fresh air from the valve covers.

I will try and look at them the next time I'm there. As I recall, they look like it's run rich. Definitely don't look 'correct'.

I do have oil in the intake and head ports, but again that's due to the mis-connected catch can, I think. I was trying to correct an issue with the PCV system, and instead I created one. :(

Where does the fresh air enter the system if you route all of the connections to the catch cans, which have a vacuum source on the other side? :headscratch:

Ah, so clean! :)

Great plan, except the Franklin wait... 3 hours for bbq! It was worth it, once... ;)

So heres today's update... The news is mixed.

First the bad news. When I pulled the passenger side head off, this is what I found:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psiqyfxbzu.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...pss0ocnttg.jpg

After some head scratching, and then looking at the driver's side head, we realized that the bent valve broke the valve guide (which is powdered metal on the L92 heads from GM), and a piece of that bounced up off the valve, into the plenum, and down into the #2 cylinder. It beat up the top of the piston pretty good, and it's left shrapnel embedded into the head surface. It's fairly rough, but I'm hoping that the head can be milled to smooth out the surface without dropping the chamber size too small for my desired PTV clearance and compression ratio.

Here is the valve and broken guide:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...pso4vtxowp.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psg5tfgvly.jpg

So, onto the better news. After getting past this, and taking Eric to lunch, we loaded the rest of the shortblock into the truck and I ran it over to Texas Speed. I have decided to forego the sleeved block idea (too much time, money, and not enough bang for the buck). We unloaded it there and their head machinist took a look at it. After some discussion, they backed off their previous limit of only taking the bore to 4.010" on this block and say they can go to 4.030" on it. BUT, it's still not clear whether that will be enough to clean this up or not.

The plan at this point is for them to disassemble the short block, check all of the cylinders to see if there is any more damage (thankfully the walls on #2 don't look to be damaged, just the piston and head), and get back with me. I expect to hear from them by Wednesday. If the block is salvageable, we are going to bore it, get a new set of pistons, and put it back together. If not, I'm getting an LS3 block, boring to 4.070" and running it as a 418ci .

Now, the other thing I did today was spend an hour and a half on the phone with Brian Tooley of Brian Tooley Racing. He's been doing LS work for almost as long as the LS has been around. He originally founded TEA, which he sold to Summit Racing (didn't know that) in 2004, and he now does parts sales and cam work. I've known of him for a long time, but in my recent research, I learned that he's been spending a good bit of time learning about what works and what doesn't with the single plane intakes for the LS engines.

During our long phone call, we discussed my current cam and performance level, my current heads and alternative options, and what I would like to end up with after all of this. It turns out that he recently did a big dyno study of the effects of valve timing on performance in the LS engines with the single plane Victor Jr. (my intake) and the L92 heads (my heads) out of the box (mine have had some work done). So he had some great data to share.

We have ended up on a plan that involves me sending my heads to TEA for the repairs, then to him for some touch up work in the ports and chambers, and then back to me with his valve springs installed. He is also going to spec out a custom cam grind for me, one which allows me to run more compression (~ 11.5 to 11.75:1) and will help my midrange powerband. I'm really excited about this step!

Today was a long day of research and phone calls, then running to Eric's to tear the engine apart, running it over to TSP, then packaging up the heads to get them on the way to TEA. I had to get it all done today as I leave town tomorrow for a week... I'm still pushing to get it all back together by March 1st, which will give me 2 weeks to break it in and tune it before the Fort Worth GG and USCA the weekend after. The long pole will be the heads. I'm going to lose 2 weeks just to shipping on them. But I think the results will be worth it!

I gotta go pack now! Early flight tomorrow... More news as it trickles in from TEA and TSP.

I did not vent fresh air to the motor. Both valve covers pulled through to one of the canisters and then into the port on the front of the manifold. Valley (PCV) to other canister and then to port on throttle body.

So Bryan, why not the heads n cam package from TSP?, curious cause thats probably the route i'm going....

Sounds like you've got a good plan Brian.

Payton,

If you have a sealed engine, and are pulling vacuum on all of the ports, then how are you actually getting airflow to remove the vapors from the crankcase? Just trying to understand if you were trying to evac the system, or trying to create a bit of a vacuum pump effect?

I have seriously considered getting a set of their heads, and that is still an option if mine are damaged... But, they admittedly don't have much experience at all with single plane setups since they focus their engine/heads/cam packages on specific vehicles. The vehicles all require the plastic intakes to fit under the hoods...

I have done a lot of research into the single planes, and there just aren't a lot of people who really focus on those setups. BTR has done a lot of dyno work on these setups to compare cam specs, and that's why I sought him out.

The TSP/PRC setups seem to be great for the composite intakes if that is what you are sticking with!

You can keep it connected to the air filter base but I would put tubes pointing vertically that almost touch the lid to give it more distance for the oil to drain back to the valve cover. I still prefer to have a line from each valve cover going to a vented catch can as I feel it keeps the intact track cleaner.

I haven't really looked at the LT engines yet, but from what I've seen they will have the same problem since it's still a skirted block so the bay to bay breathing will not be any better. If you look at early LS blocks and later LS blocks you can see GM tried to improve the bay to bay breathing with larger scallops near the pan rail.

There is plenty of positive pressure in a running motor, no need to let fresh air in to get the "blow by" out.

Sounds like Tim runs his the same way I am speaking.

Street driving, I would empty both cans about 500 miles. Track day, after each session.

Better yet ===== never have to worry about draining.... while the motor is out and the pan is off add a bung/fitting and have the catch can drain directly back to the motor.

:idea:

I'm traveling, so this update will be brief.

Another good news / bad news day. Good news: TSP says they can clean up the cylinder with just a 0.005" bore! I'm really surprised by this, but they are confident they can do it. So I can utilize my existing LS2 block. YAY!

Bad news: when they completed the tear down, the main and rod journals have been scuffed by something in the oil. That's going to mean turning the crank. But to add insult to injury, this crank, which was supposedly new, has already had the mains turned 0.010"! :(

Now the real kicker. TSP doesn't turn cranks, and they don't know anyone in Austin that they trust to turn this one. It's a Callies DragonSlayer which is supposedly hardened after being cut. I think they really don't want to trust having a shop turn a pricier crank like this. So they want to send it back to Callies to do it. The problem there is that it could take 3 weeks or so to get that done. I'm waiting for a call back to confirm that turnaround time...

I'm going to have them replace the oil pump also during this rebuild. I actually don't want the high volume pump in there it currently has, so we are going to use the Melling high pressure pump instead. I won't have a choice in that now after this discovery, so it's good that I was already planning on that...

It will be interesting to see if there is any damage to the cam journals. He didn't mention it, but I am planning to replace the cam anyway...

Bryan, Callie's utilizes two different types of hardening processes on their Dragonslayer, Magnum, and Stealth crankshafts. Perma-tough, and Dura-tough.
The tricky part is figuring out which process was used on your crank, because apparently some Dragonslayer cranks brought into America (the Dragonslayer is made in Asia) receive a Perma-tough process, and some receive a Dura-tough process. The Perma-tough process is most desirable, because it allows the crank to be turned out to roughly .060, and won't need re-hardened.
The Dura-tough process, not so much. .010 is getting into the outer edge of the good stuff, and once you get out to .020, well it will need to be re-hardened.
I find conflicting info concerning what cranks get which process, and I don't know how you'd figure that part out. The re-hardening process will be costly, because it typically means re-truing the entire crank, due to the heat causing it to be distorted.
If your in a hurry, you might want to simply buy a new one, and sell the one you have. Great news on the block, by the way! As Greg Weld says, and I quote, "Ain't hot ridding fun!"

Scott, that is good info. I bought a used Callies Magnum XL (came in the motor I bought) that was sent out to Marine Crankshaft in Socal for some repair and a cryo process I believe? (I cant' recall - it was well over a year ago now) because it was the only place in the state here that my 70 yr old engine builder trusted. What do you know about the crank? I'll have to see if I can dig up any info on it.

Bryan, not sure I would rush some of these decisions for one event... there will be plenty others and I think I'd want the thing done right -- by the right people. Just feels like that is influencing you quite a bit here and ask that you take a hard look at that thought process. Ya know? :cheers:

The Magnum XL series cranks are designed to be used in maximum output race efforts, and are lightweight. They are nitrided for hardness, which is a process that is done in a vacuum, that removes the oxygen content from the steel, and actually diffuses nitrogen, hence the name, into the surface of the crankshaft. This is the basic jest, to the process, which is very involved, and has many other ways of being done also. These crankshafts are nice!
Was this crank for an LS engine? Sorry to hijack, Bryan! :innocent:

Not to spend your money again, but it may be easier just to buy a completed shortblock and sell your other stuff...sounds to me like you will end up with about the same amount of money in either with more time in getting yours together. I would price it out both ways, which I am sure you have.

Big mistake to build a motor based on some artificial timeframe vs building to a particular plan. I agree with Flashythingy here (never thought I'd say that!). Make sure all your parts and pieces choices are made because they're the right parts and pieces. The minute you stray from that.. and one little "noise" is heard - or something doesn't run quite right... you'll lose sleep over having made a "quick" choice. It haunts a guy. Don't be a haunted guy.

If you want to meet your timeline the shortblock makes sense and most likely will come some sort of functional warranty.

Give some merit to the old adage 'haste makes waste' and analyze what you're doing and why right now from 20,000'.

Thanx guys... I agree with all of you, and even though I may sound like I am doing it, I won't scrimp on any selections just to meet the event timelines. I completely agree that I would regret that down the road. But I should be able to accomplish a simple engine rebuild in a 6-week timeframe, right???

Now, that said, nothing can be simple with this project, so I got 2 more doses of bad news today that are pretty much going to make my decision for me. I hadn't heard back from TSP about the crank, so I decided to call Callies directly myself to see what the story is. It turns out that every crank is serialized, so with the serial number they could tell me what was originally done to it. This crank was nitrided, and per my 2 discussions with Callies today, it should be rehardened after being turned.

Interestingly, it turns out they don't do the machine work and hardening in-house on a fix like this. They have a local place do the work for them. So they gave me their number to call. Shaftech in Ohio. I called them to see what we could do, and they also confirmed the need to reharden. BUT, they don't do it in house (even though their website implies that they do). They would do the machine work and ship it out for hardening, then back to me. They also quoted me 3.5 - 4 weeks to do the work, and a price of $525. Yikes!

At that price, and on that timeframe, I'm not sure if makes sense to repair this crank myself. So I made the second call to Callies to discuss my options. I wanted to understand the difference between their DragonSlayer cranks (which is mine) and their Compstar line (the step down). The Compstar is forged and rough-cut overseas and finish cut here, while the DragonSlayer is forged and cut in the US. But the real difference is the intended application. The Compstar is good for about 900HP while the DragonSlayer is good to about 1500. This engine will never see those levels, so the Compstar should be fine for me.

Ok, decision made, or so I thought... The other little trick here is that the original engine was built with 2.00" rod journals. The LS standard is 2.10" journals. It would seem the 2.00" journals are not popular. Callies lists a part number on their website for the Compstar with a 4.00" stroke and the 2.00" rod journals, but apparently they don't actually make that one anymore. So if I want to use those journals, I'm back to the Dragonslayer.

This means my options are:

- buy a Dragonslayer and use my 2.00" journals connecting rods
- buy a Compstar crank and a new set of 2.10" connecting rods

Given those options, I'm back to considering abandoning ship on salvaging parts from this engine shortblock and looking at TSP building me a completely new one. I've asked them to price me out using my block (which I can still use) and just do a completely new 402 (actually 405 I think) ci rotating assembly, and additionally pricing out a completely new 418ci shortblock. I'm about sure that I'll do one of these, and sell off the leftover pieces that I have. The crank and rods will make a nice setup for someone who is on a timeline that can have it fixed...

So I'm back to making another decision tomorrow. Hopefully my heads arrive at TEA so that they can determine the chamber volume and I can finalize my piston selection. That may not happen until Monday though.

While I'm at this project, I'm going to add an Accusump to the car. I don't want to take any chances on losing oil pressure with this setup after this investment! I'm sure that I probably caused the crank damage with some pressure loss at either an auto-x or a track day. I've had the oil pressure light blip on me before in extended-G turns. So I can't say that I'm completely surprised by the crank damage, I just didn't expect it to cause so many problems in the rebuild...

And since this thread has turned into my own little bitch-thread, I have one more for today. OK, maybe two...

Since September, I've been chasing some kind of leak from my radiator. It was just enough to occasionally smell as well as get a few drops on the belly pan. I thought it was the lower hose, so I switched that out a few months ago. But that didn't stop it.

I pulled the radiator last weekend as part of the motor pull, and Eric pressurized it for me today. He dropped me a note saying it's got a pretty good leak in an area that he can't get to to repair. Neither of us know a place we trust locally to get in there and work on it, so I'm shipping it back to the manufacturer to try and fix it. Hopefully they will be sympathetic to the fact that it only has about 3800 miles on it, and it SHOULDN'T be leaking already. We'll see how that goes...

Oh, did I mention that I'm spending the weekend helping my girlfriend clean up from massive water damage in her mountain cabin caused by the water line on a refrigerator bursting while no one was here for 10 days? In between my own stuff, we've been meeting with plumbers, HVAC people, insurance adjusters, disaster recovery people, and the leasing company... Fun!

The hits just keep on coming...

Man Bryan, quite the week for you. And I felt bad that I'm dropping everything and running to FL for 10 days to help my MIL move out of her store...when I'd much rather be at home putting my car back together.

Sounds like to me that you are doing the legwork needed to figure out the best course of action for you. Remember this, it's a hobby... Don't let setbacks take the fun out of it for you. You aren't making a living by getting to that next event. Try to keep it in the fun realm if you can.

Bryan, I'm perplexed about the conversation that you had on the phone with Callies. Doesn't affect the situation that your in, but I'm simply posting some info to explain why I've posted what I did, and I don't want to mis-lead anyone.
Copied and pasted, straight from the website...



DragonSlayer crankshafts are Made in Asia . With an expanded line of part numbers, the DragonSlayer is rapidly setting the standard by which other Sportsman crankshafts are measured.

These shafts are machined to the tolerances demanded by today’s high performance engine builder. Roundness and taper are held to less than .0003 on all rod and main journal diameters. Our final polishing procedures produce excellent load carrying surfaces that ensure extended bearing life and trouble free operation.

Each Callies DragonSlayer receives our unique Dura-Tough heat treatment. This process has proven to add extended long-term value to these highly stressed components. Callies heat treat expertise combined with our high purity premium 4340 forging produce strength of unparalleled value. All DragonSlayers are produced with standard Chevy rod journal diameters and widths for SBC, BBC, LS1, and Mopar applications.

You can put an inline check valve on the return to pan line that opens once oil above the valve becomes too much for the valve to stay closed against. Cummins has this on their engines for the breather for the exact same reasons.

Scott,

Based on running into a part number on the site that has been discontinued, it's possible that the site has out of date information. I've read other sites that explicitly say the DragonSlayer is USA forged and cut/finished at their US facilities, while the CompStar is forged and rough cut overseas with a US finish. So it seems like there are different marketing materials in different places...

I appreciated you posting the information. I had an option I was looking at in which I would have had the crank turned locally. If not for your post, I wouldn't have pursued the knowledge further. So keep any relevant data coming! :)