I don't remember knocking anyone. Just stated some facts about what Mike is able to do with a so-called "autocross" setup.

EDIT: Never mind. I'm staying out of it. Good luck OP. Take in lots of information and decide what works best for you.

WOW, quick with Ron's forum attack dogs! I did not post the question to start an argument. Everyone needs to calm down. It was a simple question to Ron.



I am new to this group and asking about Ron's specific autox background. Did I bring up a touchy subject? I would not got to a proctologist to get my teeth cleaned but without checking the background you might end up there. I am asking because like myself Ron might have been sent to other states to help set up suspension on autocross cars. I have never seen him at local SCCA or AAS events locally, so I figured he might go out of state. How else are you going to learn a new form of racing without testing?

Rodney,
I agree a national title is not everything but it does take the small pond out of the mix. It does prove you have an idea about setup or someone who helps you does. You are incorrect about being a national champion because no one else is in the class. You would be a national winner not champion and would not get the national champion jacket.

Why are you not using his set up tips? (never mind, It doesn't matter)

Greg,
I am trying to keep this nice. Name calling is childish. It was a simple question.

Lance,
Cup races are circle track and very different than auto crossing. They do not have any quick transitions.

WS6,
Smart Move.

You can ask any local fast autoxer and most likely they are more than willing to help you. We all like the challenge and competition.

other than hearing from Ron. I am not reposting on this topic. I wrote to help but it wasn't taken as such


Ron,
I am still waiting. You always seem to duck out when asked a real question.


Scott Fraser

Wait... WHAT?? I was there.... The Shelby Mini Nats as they are called -- is NOT A RACE -- It's a fun event where for one session - anyone that cares to, can go out and "race".... This is totally GENTLEMAN racing -- not real racing... Nobody is going to take the other guys line - there's no fender bashing - it's for FUN.

Mike is a seriously fast guy -- I consider him and Brianne my friends. I have a Mustang and I wouldn't hesitate to call him for advice or parts. I have his parts on my car... and if I was AUTO CROSSING, and drove his style -- I'd copy him in a heartbeat.

I've sat in a room and listened to Mike and Hobaugh (super good buddies) go round and round about the way each other tunes their cars suspension... Both of them appears to be right --- FOR THEM. Mike likes his car one way - Hobaugh another... Doesn't make either of them right or wrong. Each can beat the other on any given day and have done so many times.

If I was the OP --- I'd certainly call Mike for his invaluable advice and stellar parts. But I wouldn't stop there. Different driving styles require different set ups... and sadly - since most of us aren't race car guys - we don't get the chance to drive many different set ups to know what is going to work for us. Some guys do really well with a real edgy set up. I'd wreck that in turn 2... I need a more forgiving set up that allows me to recover...

What's my point?? Don't be a one horse "this is the way it has to be" kinda guy... Talk to lots of people and try to find a suspension set up that works for you and your style, and what you want out of the car. Being closed minded and arguing about one way, or the highway, just shows ignorance. Be open and honest, learn and experiment.

Well, this thread has sure gone sideways. Lets get back on topic and drop the personal shots. That doesn't fly here.

Yeah don't get this closed up you hell hounds. Play nice!!

gonna leave this here. I'm sure he's busy doing something Scott. Ducking out? Rons attack dogs? We all show respect and respect each other. Someone has to remind the new guys that this is a community of friends and doesn't have to start with name calling, chest thumping and call outs. I for one don't have a g******* thing to prove to any one. Main goal in life is to provide for my family. Having fun with cars is a side effect. :)

I am re-posting my answers because I believe they were lost in the scuttle

big bar/soft spring?


that choice is mostly decided from training and driving style..


for me...I run my 68 Camaro with 800 lb front springs and the DSE sway bar...my upper control arms pivot point has been moved from stock (modified Guldstrand) and that creates a jacking effect so essentially my car is in camber moment at all times...the lower control arm has the shock mount moved closer to the ball joint than standard arms....and the triple adjust front shocks i have run a digressive piston....on the rear I run a 325 spring on a triangulated 4 link and the triple adjust rear shocks i have run a digressive piston, I use the Helwig Protour rear bar....the weight of my car is 3150 with full interior, radio, heater, full tank and Cage the engine is a 6.0 LS.....

my set up is big bar/medium spring
and even with the poundage of springs I run you can see how my car fully compresses coming off the rumble strips at 90mph at the Vegas Track


http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...psbfx4pllv.jpg


hope that helps

:underchair:

Thank Rod, it does help, even all of the banter in some way has helped. Considering suspension setups are subjective, my next question was going to be if there a was middle ground with bar/spring realtionship. However your car shows that there is a middle ground, with an 800lb spring and big bar in front.

3550# fat car with 40 year old suspension technology underneath it...except for a modern soft spring big bar setup.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/RF...c=w980-h653-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Q3...-=w720-h358-no

Car runs a 600# spring up front with a 1.5" diameter 0.375" wall front sway bar.

List of cars it beat in last Sunday's autocross in Raw time:

2000 Pontiac Trans AM WS6
2011 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
2013 Scion FR-S
1997 Ford Mustang Cobra
1965 Factory Fi Cobra
2014 Ford Fiesta ST
2013 Scion FR-S
2005 Subaru Impreza WRX STi
1989 Honda Civic Si
1972 Int'l Harvester Scout II
1992 Chevrolet Corvette
1994 Chevrolet Cavalier
2003 Mazda Miata
2006 Mitsubishi Evolution IX MR
2010 Porsche 911 4S Cab
2014 Nissan 370Z
1998 BMW 328is
1999 Mazda Miata
2011 Subaru WRX
2013 Fiat Abarth
2008 Volkswagen R32
2014 Nissan 370Z
2013 Fiat Abarth
95 Margay Lynx
1991 Mazda miata
2015 Subaru WRX STi
2013 Subaru BRZ
1991 Mazda MX5 Miata
2001 Porsche 911 Turbo
11 Camero
1997 Mazda Miata
1991 Ford Mustang
2008 Volkswagen R32
2013 Chevrolet Camaro
2005 Volkswagen Jetta GLI
2013 Scion FR-S
2015 Subaru WRX
2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evo
2004 Porsche 911
2013 Ford Focus ST
1997 Mazda Miata
1991 Mazda Miata
2015 Ford Mustang GT
1984 Porsche 944
Mazda Mazdaspeed3
2002 Mazda Miata
2008 Mini Cooper
1999 Ford Mustang Cobra
2002 Honda S2000
2007 Mini Couper
2009 Mazda Mazdaspeed 3
2014 Ford Focus ST
1994 Toyota Tercel
Ford Focus
1967 Pontiac Firebird
2013 Ford Mustang GT
MX5
2013 Fiat Abarth 500c
2015 Scion FRS
2003 Mazda Miata
86 Nissan 300zx
86 Nissan 300 zx
1972 Int'l Harvester Scout II
1990 Mazda Miata
2006 Ford Focus
14 Honda Civic SI
2012 Scion tC
2006 Pontiac gto
1987 Pontiac Fiero GT
1992 Mazda Miata
2008 Mazda Mazda 3
BMW 328i
2000 Ford Mustang GT
1979 Chevrolet Camaro
95 Miata
09 Honda Fit
00 Mustang
1987 Pontiac Fiero GT

Same car finished 16th out of 64 of the best of the best CAM cars and drivers at CAM East a few weeks ago, with less tire, less brake and less horsepower than a lot of the cars behind it.

This particular car would not finish like it has shown it can many times over...without a finely tuned SSBB setup.

Other cars and setups may be different but to say autocross is a one trick pony that only a stiff spring car can run well at is just incorrect.

Sigh.....let me fix that for you.

I beat a guy in a ZR1 last weekend, I don't think my car is better than his.

How big is the bar? 1"or 1 1/4"?

ok right there gives you midwest PIMP status in my book. HAaaaa haaaaa f-n-a :thumbsup:

yep, every dog has his day.

the front bar is 1-1/8" Hollow, Anti-Roll Bar Rate: 1532 lb/in.

the rear bar is 3/4" hollow, heat treated with 3 adjustable rates
rate 225: Acts like a: 21.49 mm bar
rate 240: Acts like a: 21.85 mm bar
rate 255: Acts like a: 22.18 mm bar

:popcorn2: this dog is still waiting

Thanks for the props Donny, means a lot to me coming from a driver of your caliber. I'm trying to be as good as I can get.

That International Harvestor is a Good Guys winner btw... ;) It is bad arse...

I'm glad you see it that way.

I'm a hack, though.....That Mason kid, he can wheel.

I have lots of video of me passing people.... I have lots of video of people passing me... My car is faster than I am. LOL

For a "big bar setup" the effective spring rate of the bar needs to be greater than the effective spring rate of your coils. This pulls the inside tire up and will compress the suspension due to cornering loads. Unless you have a silly light spring rate 1.125" bar ain't gonna do it. You will need a 1.375"+ diameter before you get into big bar territory.

Fixed it for ya buddy!

Lots of talk about what works best for the individual, different driving styles and what not. What about the guy building a car with zero experience on a road course?

Greg you've got three track cars and I'm sure they're all set up different. The mustang with Ron's secret sauce, the Lotus I'm guessing is stiffer and lighter with more aero and then the Miata....which is, um...a Miata. Which do you feel the most confident in?

:thumbsup:

Craig, don't get excited over the actual sizing of the bars. Pay attention to the actual rate of each bar. The 1 1/8" bar on the front of Rods car is rated at 1532 lb/in.(wow!) For comparison sake, my "bigger" 1 3/8" DSE bar on the front of my Chevelle is rated at something like 820ish. The larger 1 1/2" splined bar setup, offered by DSE, is rated at just over 1000 lbs.
I ran the BBSS setup on my asphalt late models, and understand what is needed as a fine tuned system to make this setup fast. Shock valving is the most critical. I posted on my build thread a couple years back that I was going to attempt a BBSS setup on my Chevelle, and wondered then what people would think, so this thread is interesting to me, to say the least...can do without the bickering though.

BINGO! :thumbsup:

Great question Basher!! Not really relevant to this particular thread but here goes it:

Let's discuss before and after....

The Mustang was a complete disaster for handling... it was outdated... worn out... had cracked suspension parts - bushings that were frozen... shocks that were the worst worn out crap many people had ever seen. It's a track car... it's a few years old... stuff wasn't up to snuff. I didn't know any better. I only knew that I couldn't keep up with similar cars.

Enter the forensic teardown and measurements of what was... and a fresh sheet of paper and calcs by Ron Sutton...

The car is now a pure joy to drive -- videos of before and after confirm that the car works and works really well. Everybody used to pass me.... now - about the only people that pass me are guys with way fatter tires (Big Mikes Cup Car for instance). He used to pass me and I'd never see him again... now I can hang with him and do so without driving hard. I have the Sutton Low Roll High Travel design on my Mustang. The car is amazing. I have complete confidence in the car off line or any line... It's allowed me to work on driving skills rather than my life saving skills... with a series of linked recoveries. It's just flat planted.

I bought the Lotus 2 11 as a back up car... driving it is what tipped me off to how BAD the Mustang was. I USED TO describe the Mustang as "the pissed off bull"... and the Lotus as an adult GoKart.... That description would NOW be - the Mustang is WAY MORE FUN than the Lotus. I drive both with almost the same lap times. The Lotus used to be WAY faster. I may now sell the Lotus - because it's just too much fun to wheel the Mustang. I used to "get thru" the Mustang -- and happily stepped "up" to the Lotus... Now I drive it (the Lotus 2 11) because I have it and it should be driven...

The Lotus has double adjustable Ohlins.... weighs nothing... has plenty of power... steering is quick and light - and it's surgical.... the set up is exactly what the factory specs say to run it at.... the only big changes for handling are the mono ball bushings that replaced the rubber bushings.... and the Camber - and ride height and rake for downforce. The Ohlins are set to factory recommendations. It's an IRS... It runs grippy Yokohama A001 Softs (similar to Hoosier A7's).

The Miata was set up by Hobaugh for his daughter -- and he has auto crossed it and tracked it. With 100 more HP it would be a hoot... it's a "momentum car"... don't lift or you loose any momentum you had. It has some Falkens on it I think... It has adjustable shocks - different springs -- a roll bar... And the only guys that make fun of it are the ones that haven't had a chance to drive it. It's a hoot - sticks like glue - and a guy can really get after "the lines" with this car! YES -- the other cars can pass it... it lacks HP and TQ.... it does not lack FUN or confidence. You can toss it around in the corner - evoke mild oversteer and then just point it where it needs to go and ZOOM ZOOM... like I said - a total hoot! The cheapest, most fun, track car ever. Put some sticky Yoko's or Hoosiers on the little brat and it would be faster... but then I couldn't drive it to the grocery store after tracking it all day.

The Lotus 2 11 is by far the most dangerous to drive... huge rear weight bias (63%).... needs speed to get the aero working... snap oversteers.... and I mean SNAP. I've learned to drive it and catch the oversteer - but it will bite you big time! It's every fast - and is not a beginners car. You go into a corner and lift, or touch the brakes - you're history. It too is a momentum car -- but the momentum is far higher because it's fast. Don't make any mistakes in this car. It needs to be well driven at speed. Over correct as I did from T8 up to T9 at Thunderhill and you have a "tank slapper" on your hands. There's a series of "S" black marks up in that section - just before I spun it. LOL I simply missed the apex at 8 and then tried to correct my line.... and it was Katy bar the door! Bring on your fat tired 600+hp ZR1 and I'll drive by you like you're standing still. It's really well engineered and light as a feather.


I'll take the Mustang any day. NOW! I wouldn't have said that pre "Sutton". That's the answer to "which do you feel most confident in". It's the most neutral handling - glued to the track - predictable - no fuss - just "punch it! I know the road" of all three cars.

Greg, that is a great endorsement for Good Ron (Sutton)! Sounds like he setup your car so YOU could drive it fast!

People have touched on this but I think it needs to be specifically pointed out. Everyone drives differently. You have to set the car up for your driving style. That, or you have to retrain yourself how to drive. It might ultimately be a combination of both. However, there's also more than one way to go fast. Combine them all together and figure out what works for you. I still think it's best to listen to lots of different people and decide for yourself what will work for you and your car. This has been a good read after skipping over the bickering. Let's keep the tech up.

That was baked in the cake. He (Ron Sutton) was brought on to help me... in the most basic ways. Tire pressures... etc. Running two cars, I wanted to LEARN basic car/track management. i.e., if the track is hot - what do I do with the tire pressures etc. When are my tires "hard" (Durometer). Teach me how to measure tire temps and what they are telling me. BASICS.

The point is - that HE was able to watch the car - and ask me questions and listened to ME and what I was feeling etc.

I think by the end of the first day - he'd taken 15 or 16 seconds off my lap times.

Fast forward... "Why is everyone passing me in the Mustang? But I can pass them all in the Lotus?" And "The Mustang just wears me out..."

All of the discussions we had were not about being .10 faster. They were solely centered on making the car more fun to drive. Making it predictable. Improvements that made the weekends fun and safe for ME... at whatever level I was capable of driving. I will NEVER tell you I'm fast or that I'm a good driver. It's never been my goal. I just wanted the car to work so I could stop having "oh crap" moments 6 out of 10 turns. The CARS are fast. My guess is - the Mustang would be 4 or so seconds a lap faster with Brian Finch or Hobaugh or Mary Pozzi behind the wheel. I think they'd really like the way the car is set up.

I've gotten the car to understeer (tight) once or twice now.... The minute I let up on the brake - she gets grip and off I go on around the corner... I had very minor oversteer (loose) on exit under power. Mentioned this to Ron and with a minor adjustment on the shocks (triple JRi's) that disappeared. The car is happy. The understeer was induced because I'm so much more confident in the car that I can hammer the entry harder - brake later - and explore late apex lines etc that I NEVER would have attempted prior to the "fix".

I was going to name my "team" - Tasmanian Devil Racing - I spun every track event. Now my lap times are faster than the group I run with and I don't spin or even come close to it. I did go off track at T3 at Sonoma on exit - kept it in the dirt until I could feather back on track for T4 - and I hardly even lifted on the throttle... I was WAY off line into the turn (3) - which had me exit wide - I knew this was going to happen when I entered the turn... I just got lazy on a pass and didn't bring the car back to where it should have been. In the old car - I wouldn't have made the pass - and had I gotten off line I would have been in the wall at T3 instead of a "ho hum I have two in the dirt". When flagged for my indiscretion - the President of the club asked what happened - I told him - (he's run nose and tail with me) he waves me back out and says "GO GET 'EM". :thumbsup:

I've been watching this thread some, and I decided to throw in a couple of cents worth. OP, you are right in that the BBSS (high travel/low roll) works because of the geometry changes the high travel produces - for example, caster gain that results in correct camber movement for BOTH tires, not just the outside tire when they are turned. After studying Ron's posts (and many other sources on the subject) and talking with Ron personally, I made the move and cut several thousand dollars of C6 suspension out of my unfinished project track car and started over. To make a long story short, there isn't a piece of the car forward of the firewall that wasn't cut, moved, or massaged to accommodate big tires traveling 4 inches in compression (with proper geometry) and still being able to turn without hitting something- frame rails, front cross-member, sway bar mounts, inner fender wells. etc. I guess I'm saying that your decision on whether or not to go BBSS should involve careful analysis and preliminary design work to see the extent of the changes required and to see if all of the effort and expense is worth it to you. It is more than changing the springs and sway bar on a production-based vehicle. Good luck with your project.

Pappy

To elaborate it depends on if the driver is driving correctly. A driver that runs the correct lines for his comfort level of speed with drive easier than a faster car on the incorrect lines.
A neutral or balanced car will drive better no matter who is behind the wheel. Most often its a driver issue that needs tuning.

oops didn't see your post. :underchair:

I will attest to the FUN - FAST - CONFIDENCE feel of the car!!

What that allows me to do then - is to grow into being a better driver. We only do this VERY LITTLE... most guys do what? 3 or 4 track events per year?? Maybe with MONTHS in between?? How good do you really think you're going to be? Better to have the car be good and comfortable... because it will be plenty fast. Only thing I'm going out for is a big sh!t eating grin... and to hang with my friends. Rozelle or Hobaugh or Popp or Steilow or Pozzi.... they're going for the win. Let's face it -- most of us are not in that league. Doesn't mean that with a properly set up car you can't be competitive and be proud of your times... or win a local auto cross... And you'll also soon discover that all the parts in the world - that don't work in harmony - are just a giant pile of expensive parts. That's where the GOAL needs to be set - and the professional brought in BEFORE you buy a bunch of parts and toss half of them in the For Sale section... Or if you've bought the parts and aren't happy -- buying more parts without (yet again) selecting them correctly and without professional advice... is just wasting more time and more money. You're probably a pro in your business.... and don't you think that people that don't consult you FIRST are idiots?? Costing themselves time and money, when all they had to do was get you involved in the beginning??

Big bar small bar
 

I agree that most of us don't get enough track
time running 3-4 events a year. My viper buddy runs once
or twice a month

I also want to point out budget does dictate some of
the decisions on what we run. My Pantera is mostly set
For me. My firebird is another story. I put some brakes on
the car but needed bigger wheels and better tires before
the brakes could be finished. 4k for wheels 1500 for tires
Now I can do the better brakes. But I could also use some
better shocks. One of the Jri shocks is more than my current
Vikings. Also just spent 1600 on Pantera tires

I elect to keep the car running and slowly improve it
I am also figuring out how to drive the car the best way I
can. Every time I change things it gets better but far from
done. Years ago a new set of tires is what made it better and
we just drove it Bad handling or not and learned how to drive it faster
Change is good but sometimes seat time for now I think is
better

I have been tracking for the last 10-11 years and just started
to do more Autocrossing. For me it is a lot harder to Autocross
than go run a track Don't get me wrong I love tracking but I think
Autocrossing gives you less error and to me more feedback on
how the car is doing
As we say on my Pantera forum Flamesuit on

Bob

If it was EASY..... the fat chicks could do it! LOL



Totally agree Bob. As a "hobby" -- it's beginning to get right up there with airplanes (on the cost). EEEEEEHHHHHHHAAAAAAA

Big bar soft
 

Greg,
I had my Mustang (Chet's now) completely redone
when I first bought the car.. springs, shocks, overides
and brakes... It was my first real track car so I wanted
something that was right before I went out there

Car was soft but would run anywhere on the track
so very easy to drive like yours... tried autocrossing it
once and to me soft is not the way to go in an autocross car

Now I am trying to figure things out as I go plus keep
the Firebird running.. I hate dead cars

Pantera is like your Lotus in handling department.. sticks
great but as you say do not let off in a turn or brake otherwise
it is hard to stop it from spinning.. I have only spun it once on
the track on cold tires and once in front of the world at Optima

Bob

Chet absolutely drives the wheels off that car! I've followed him enough to be able to make that statement! He needs to maintain it better - but that's a different discussion.


Here’s what makes me a Sutton Fanboi…. you have no idea how good it (the suspension) can be until you’ve done it - and then you kick yourself for ever having driven such a POS - when it could have been so good.

Only when you’ve driven “ok” or “bad” can you then compare to what is fantastic.

I’m no longer looking for anything “better” — I think this is as good as it can get, given my skinny tire leaf spring car (245's squared)… and the only reason I think that is, because I’m able to run guys down from half a track back before they can get two more turns in…. WTF more do you want than that for a “track day” car. I can say with fact that the CAR allows me to drive that way. It's not my skills. If I had skills, the car would be far faster.

Someone once explained tire grip with soft spring vs stiff springs to me like this.

When you walk across an ice skating rink, do you walk stiff legged or do you bend your knees and step lightly with each step?

I dont walk on the rink.....I skate this is me at 50 years old I still hustle, I carry a few more pounds, but when I bump those youngens around they give pops room next time....bend those knees!


http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...psf32a5b39.jpg

Let me explain this video and why I'm posting it AGAIN....

This is a SUTTON high travel low roll set up - leaf springs - 245 tires... big brakes... 590ish HP...

First LAP is under YELLOW - we're not allowed to pass at all under YELLOW... WE are not allowed to pass in CORNERS... When watching - you must realize that there are LIMITATIONS on these track days where you can pass... And I know this track well -- and sometimes its just not WORTH IT to take a pass.... you back out and pass when you want to.

There are many times when cars are holding me up -- you'll see instances where I get brake checked... where I could have gone far deeper into a corner and carried a higher corner speed. Remember we aren't allowed to pass in corners.

Watch how many times there are no cars in sight ---- and I catch them and then pass them with ease. This is NOT a horsepower issue... it's a "higher average speed" issue. The guys I'm passing are going as fast as they can - and doing the best they can... they're not braking and letting me by. NOBODY wants to get passed.

Near the end I run into a complete CF of traffic. There is ZERO effort to pass or get caught up in that.... so I just let 'em go - REMEMBER I HAVE RON SUTTON ON THE RADIO TELLING ME ABOUT TRAFFIC.

The whole time I'm on track he's working with me on stuff... he might be telling me to just back off and gain some speed (like a sling shot move) to go around someone... We're talking about corners and dissecting the track... and trying different lines and working on things the entire time I'm out there.

If you don't think this SUSPENSION IS WORKING WELL.... well then there's no helping you... LOL