I think you hit the nail on the head. I believe most builds have their own dirty little secrets that most of us never hear about(This is good Greg and Mario are letting folks know). It creates unrealistic expectations for guys having builds done. Many will likely end with 100K-400K spent and several years waiting for a POS that looks like a 8th grade art project under the skirt and pukes oil all the time. It seems many big dollar high profile builds spend at least a year on a show circuit which allows time to iron out bugs but even those will require wrenching and have an ugly underbelly too. My two favorite car builders are DSE and Roadster Shop but in my opinion they can't build the reliability that the General can because they spend millions developing components. Old cars with new parts still means working on them.

Been doing a little navel gazing on this subject. When someone has a one off custom car built what they get is in fact the first prototype of that car. In the real world of engineering there is generally several prototype builds with each one learning from the previous build. Each build round is extensively tested and improvements made before the next round. The prototype builds are followed by pilot runs which are followed by preproduction runs. Each step continues to work out the kinks. Many units are built before the first customer build.

I guess what I am trying to say is the chances of getting a perfect custom car are relatively small. The more extreme and custom the build the smaller the chance. I think this is why the builder and customer need to agree to what extent the builder will go to sort the car and for how long he will warranty his build. The estimated cost of warranty work should be included in the labor rate of the shop.

Don

Outing ....
 

Mario, I am assuming for legal purposes your not outing this shop ?

These people need to be put out there on the stand for all to see and be judged by their reputation ... Its this simple ... Do sh!% work then you deserve to be recognized as such and your business should suffer for it. I own my own business and GUARANTEE the best service in my industry or I tell my perspective clients to FIRE us ... I've lost 1 client in 9 years.

Whats going on in this industry is beyond comprehension and something needs to be done.

Don ... I totally agree with your statement BUT there are proper ways to handle a companies responses to clients. I believe as someone had mentioned, shops unlike the Roadster shop and DSE can get in over their head quickly both technically and financially and the result is a bad situation for both the shop and the client. Maybe these shops shouldn't take on more than they can chew .... Even here in Toronto Ive seen more then 90% of all high end builds go completely sideways and its unacceptable

Cheers
Steve

Greg, I would be inclined to think far more than we'd imagine.

Reminds me of the proverbial "I aint see nuthin..." but everyone is screaming for change. Maybe I am short sighted or temperamental, fair enough. Everyone has to decide their own exposure... if someone screws me, I will not go quietly.


Jeff-

WHY would anyone think that any builder ANY builder could build the reliability into even a million dollar car that GM FORD (the corvette has been in constant development since 1952!!!) or any mfg can? how could you take parts made by 200 different suppliers that have never been tested together for more the 2 minutes if your luck and expect all of them to work for for 100,000 miles with no issues. These are NOT factory cars they are 1 off cars built by guys who are supposed to perform Magic and make some power window motor work with some after market switch and a new window that doesn't fit in an aftermarket door with new repop window felt and rubbers that are too hard and too thick in a 40 year old car and expect it to work perfectly the first time you touch the switch and have that NEVER be an issue for the entire remainder of that cars life? really?

I feel Speedtech builds really good cars, well finished and with Great style, I feel we do it more reasonably that some in the same price range, i have been doing this since i was 13! We test the cars for a period, usually a couple hundred miles. ( i laugh at the customers who say Take it out and beat on it!! UMMM NO that is up to you) and then give it to the customer, because i have to charge all that testing time and all the fuel. It adds up. The customer want their car, they want to drive it.
I am sure you have seen the grey 69 Camaro we just finished? it was a mid $$$ build compared to a DS or RS car we put 400 miles on it, here is the funny part brand new T56 5 miles on it and it pushed out the rear seal. hummm oh well 2 hours later we had a new seal in it who knows. 5 more miles pushed out the new seal,WTF made some clamps to hold the seal in from aluminum. thinking maybe the housing was a little over size it was not leaking or anything, customer picks up car 50 miles later is shows up on a tow truck guess what, call Tremec give them the ser# "oh that one was a DUD and needs a new Tail shaft housing we will send you a new one. Cool who is paying the labor? tremec "NOT US" cool pull the exhaust drive shaft for the 3rd time, pull the trans wait 2 weeks for the part! the original housing did not get the vent or return passages machined in it so it was juut pumping the oil onto the back side of the seal. when we had the trans out we noticed the shifter was all loose. took that apart and the pivot pin bushing had walked out and was all chewed up. call Tremec send a pic "that does not look like our shifter (it was a pick of the pin ans pivot not the whole assembly) send another pic of the housing that says "TREMEC" on it does this look like yours? .........ok we will send you a replacement.... tick tock 2 weeks!! the car was on the hoist for a MONTH we had 12 hours labor in this.
Welcome to building cars, i find it funny how it is never our own parts we are fixing!!!
Whew rant over
i just want people to understand that some of the issues that come up on these cars truly are not the builders fault!! but they choose to either fix them AT THEIR EXPENSE!!!! BTW or not I suppose that is the difference.

I think that is the longest post I have ever written :D

I think you know the answer to that Greg.
Don I agree with you . And let me start by saying I don't expect my car to be warrantied for life . I do understand these cars are hand built. Just let me clear that up . My issue other than the engine are somewhat minor . But these issues have been a problem from the beginning. I have had the car back for almost two years these things didn't just start now. And this car has been pretty much a disaster since the last few months of the build . I 've been pretty forgiving through out this whole thing and I have two people that car vouch for that. I let a lot of things go and as my wife has said I'm the problem for letting that happen. Guess what she's right ! I should of taken the car out after the first problem came up but I didn't. And all hell broke loose after that. In my thread I'm going to go through everything that happen and when you read it your going to wonder WTF is wrong with me!!!. I learned a valuable lesson trust me.
Steve No problem BBT FABRICATION. It's in my Project thread so not to hard to figure it out :D

Mario,

You're a good man. I am truly sorry to hear about this and I hope a resolution can be found without drastic measures.

as for everyone else...

I agree with what was stated above about custom cars being basically a prototype. Being a one-off car builder is subjecting yourself to the inevitable bugs and issues every time you fire the next one up. These bugs can be 1 or 100 depending on the details of the build and it is as frustrating for the builder as it is for the customer. The difference in good, mediocre, and bad builders during this time is being able to manage these issues when they arise by treating customers with the utmost respect and honesty by resolving the issues and not repeating past mistakes on the next builds.

Contrary to many of the comments in this thread- I believe the majority of builders are good people that can be trusted and are not crooks or shady people. While there is no justification for not making things right or not handling issues, I hate to see the posts in this thread that say they would or could never trust a "professional" shop to build their cars. This is simply not being fair to builders and guys who genuinely want to do the best they can for customers. I hope some of you won't not trust any builder just because a few people have had issues with some builders.

I hate to see good people involved in these situations. We as car guys are a dying breed and I would love to see us all working well together.

Mario, I just went thru your Build and there is a bunch of awesomeness there. But there was also a bunch of "I'm done with this car" "I'm sueing". Obviously I'm not in your shoes and I've been raked over the coals on much smaller builds. Could it be that the attitude you got "Everything is Good, you signed for it" be part of you sueing people as part of the build? I friggen hate Attorneys (my Ex-Wife is one to start with, lol), so if someone starts I'm going to sue so & so, I tend to stay far away.

Or you mean like the Ron Francis black box relay panel that needs separate relays to operate properly. I still laugh at the owner of Ron Francis telling me I need to install relays to trigger his fancy relay panel that won a Super Duper SEMA award. Junk. Then why do I need your stupid relay box.

Or you mean the old ISIS system stuff? HAHAHA Its like using an original Nintendo 20 years later.

Or that hydraulic power assist brake booster thing. Not hydraboost I forget what the other was called.

Or that flush fit glass glass kit that just doesn't fit.

All those fancy products that everyone wants until its actually installed.


If you build any car that is cool now or trendy it has new parts that the builder and owner are the R&D test mule for said company whether you know it or not. I love it when I call about a malfunctioning part and the company leads you to believe your the only dude on the planet with one that is wrong and you tell em, " What are the odds that I have 3 of them from you that are junk and my buddy has 2 more?". My buddy said he talked you last week about his two junk units and told me to ask for you directly. ZING.



Later on we can get into the bad shops who should not be building entire cars.

This hobby is filled with tons of egos of people who want to say they can do stuff as it makes them fell like Tim the Tool Man Taylor I guess. We all have talents and more then likely your not good at doing every single aspect of building a car. Now days it takes a team, Sheetmetal guys, Chassis guys, Mechanical guys and body guys and painters and interior guys. Its a tremendous team effort to build things that look good and perform well.

I have seen fabricators build a truck that they just changed the engine oil pan to clear the crossmember in their chassis and forgot the pick up tube seal so the engine had no oil pressure for a long long time as they couldn't figure it out. They are fabricators and not Mechanics. I have seen body and paint guys guys think they can do chassis work. And it drives like a tank. Body and paint guys who have zero clue what caster is. Or chassis fabricators who build a pan hard bar mount without reinforcement as they are not engineers but the welding on the frame is nice and tig welded. HAHA

I have heard awards of major Award winning cars that were built by super shops that caught fire in the customers drive way. Or major shops who send the customer on a cross country journey in a brand new car and tell them to watch the gauge as the fan doesn't always come on. REALLY??? 300 miles down the road it over heated at a truck stop in the middle of no where. It was the fan connector not being connected properly.

The true test of any builder is repeat customers. No one that is unhappy will build a 2nd or 3rd or 4th car if its junk. The other one is how many cars do you see for sale after its complete. Nobody divorces their wife because she is a great wife. I see cars that get passed around and sold at auction 2, 3 even 4 or 5 times at auction? Nobody sells a car because its so great and runs awesome all the time.

I say this all the time as I see guys who get taken all the time. This industry needs more education. Tech articles just sell parts and tell you how great junk parts are to intsall. Most guys have no clue how what they are looking at or how to REALLY build a car. I get a call every week from a guy wanting a camaro with All the cool parts for 20K. Painted and ready for SEMA and the track. Not gonna happen. Can't even buy the engine and trans you want for that bud.

And some cars just take more work to get right then others. You may be using the best builder ever and it might be struggle. The more custom the more chance for problems until that basic LS3 430 hp engine kicks you square in the nuts.

Such a good discussion! Just like anything you have to qualify your builder and the builder should do the same with the customer. Neither side wants a headache and the realities and expectations should be layed out up front, time line, cost, warranty.
Because I don’t know, what exactly is discussed on a “pro” built car? Is a contract in place?

Hi Mario. Just to be clear I don’t think you are at fault here. I’m just sharing some observations I made after many years of product development and design.

Don

Jeff I'm the fairest guy you could ask for. And I have a few people on this board that can attest to that . I can tell you this I'm not a sue happy person . But when you get to a point that you know your being taken advantage of knowing you been REALLY REALLY cool through this prosses I feel you have to draw the line . Almost 30 years in business never once did I have to go after someone or someone come after me! I had someone tell me I wouldn't do this if I pay for my attorney . Ahh yes I would !
Blake I get everything your saying and fully understand trust me. And this is one thing of many with my car . So I'll start with the engine it had problems from day one. Not 5 months not 1 year but day one. Is it my builders fault ? Well I didn't send the motor to my builder to have it built it was his builder . But then you ask is it the builders fault ? Well after going to two different tuners ( that's a whole nother story) It took my nephews drag sled tuner to figure out in five minutes my car has been running at 44 degress advanced fixed timing!!!! Trying to start my car was like rolling the dice the starter kick back was so severe it bent the f@cking starter bolts ! So my question is would you deliver a car knowing from the start it wasn't right?
Thank you Brycen !
Well spend $45,000 dollars to get your interior done and have it a complete pile of sh!t and let me know what you would do !!IT'S ALL FIXED NOW!!
Ohh I will do it totally different next time
Nope totally understand!

Mario i was actually not implying anything in regard to your car, i was more just explaining it to others who might be reading the posts,
if your asking me if i would hand over the car not running properly the answer is NO. now we don't do tuning, i have people for that, that being said they are hard to find and hard to work with.

when people tell me they want there car to handle and drive like a new Corvette of BMW i tell them to just go buy one and save your money!
your car was obviously a HUGE DREAM that you decided to try and make come true as are MOST of these builds it is unfortunate that it has turned into a nightmare!!
hell i cant afford one of these car!! but if i could i LET ME TELL YOU!!!
hope it all works out and you get to enjoy it !!

Just so we're clear Mario, I'm 100% with you and GW. I am picky, I expect someone's best effort and quality. I tell them upfront before price is even talked about...

I am not understanding people who don't speak up when they don't get what they paid for...

Jeff-

Nope didn’t take it that way at all 🤪 Just wa asking if you would even deliver a car like that and you answered that ‼️
I understand Jeff sorry if it came off the wrong way .

So --- In agreement with Brycen.... I will sum this up for the BUILDERS here and the customers.....

I've had FOUR rather expensive pro-built cars done.

#1 - Steve Frisbee built '32 Ford --- rebuild is the correct description. Was in excess of $200K worth of work.

Car didn't run....

Started and ran my brand new motor with no oil.... had I not been there at the time - they'd have run it til it seized. I heard the lifters rattling and said kill it! They were so stupid they didn't bother to check the dipstick - nor pre-prime the motor after sitting for a year.

Car had no brake lights

Car had to be flat bedded within 2 hours of being driven - because of crap wire job

Car puked coolant and oil from every line made.

They charged me $15K for fixing it. This was all work they had been paid to perform the first time around. Don't even get me started..... If I see him I'd like to punch his fat little face because he's a dick and an idiot.


#2 -- Roy Brizio built '33 -- Car was $283K.... had several minor teething issues. Every one of them fixed correctly -- paint touched up - car detailed and looking brand spanking new every time I took it in for something - or even just asked to store it for a couple months. NO CHARGE EVER -- NO "NOT MY PROBLEM" EVER.

#3 -- Sutton built Dirt Missile.... $200K catalog car.... Expect to have LOTS of issues and LOTS of set up work and LOTS of testing and tuning.... but if you can't do little things even half right - and you are aware of an issue and don't bother to fix it -- and you cost me $50K in wasted time and effort.... you don't get to touch the car ever... because you're too F'n stupid. I'd prefer to pay someone double (not) to fix it.

#4 -- '40 Ford.... We shall see..... my guess is. It fires up - drives 3,000 miles problem free.


MARIO nor I expect perfection from first start up -- what we do expect when stuff is leaking -- or stuff the builder DID -- not a part that broke under warranty -- is to have the issue resolved in a fair and equitable manor. Even if it takes more time - and costs some money.

Neither of us would ask for a "discount" up front before starting a build.... we ask for the things we want - we expect to pay for them - we EXPECT you the builder to be a professional that you represent yourself as -- and to FORESEE issues when you're building this crap. Don't set my engine back in a custom built firewall and not be able to remove the valve covers. Don't give me a car that the brake lines are leaking. Don't give me a car puking oil. Don't give me a car with fuses blowing repeatedly.

These cars cost what brand new Ferraris and Bentleys cost. Be a professional and fix the issues YOU caused - without hesitation, or question, or additional billing.

Nobody that's done this work would expect perfection or a lifetime warranty -- or take issue with a part that takes a dump -- what you expect is for the builder to fix the issues THEY CAUSED.

Many of you know I recently purchased a new home from a production builder that builds 1,000 homes a year. This builder has policies and procedures for every little thing involved with the construction and sale of a new home. They are not "newbies" at this at all...

On Monday we had our 5 month meeting with our warranty rep. This is where we bring up any small issues we have and they take care of them under their 12 month bumper to bumper warranty laid out in their manuals. It's all good, basically the house is fine, couple small issues like a garage door that needs adjusted because it won't stay up and a couple service doors that have sagged and need adjusted. No big deal...

Later that day I notice this laying up on the roof.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Vista-Mon...RJ6bCcd-XL.jpg

I send the rep a quick email "Hey, also noticed a vent cap has come loose up on the roof if you want to put that on your list of items to take care of"

She replies back that I need to contact the roofer for that... :wacko:

I ask her for the # and ask "Why?" She says she is not responsible for "storm damage"... :bang:

So I call the roofer, after a 30 minute conversation with their CSR...who absolutely won't schedule an appt without me agreeing to pay a service call charge first...I take my big camera out for some better pictures.

Her story is the same thing, "we've had lots of storm damage in your neighborhood, this is absolutely storm damage, storm damage is not covered under the warranty". She even tried to put the blame on another trade, saying that is the dryer vent..."not one of their pieces". I ask "who installed it?" "Well, we did but the trade gave it to us to install". She had never even seen what came loose and had no idea what the vent was for or why it came loose. Every time I'd refute her next excuse, she'd put me on hold...go talk to her boss (the owner of the roofing company) and come back to me with his next excuse to use... I was blown away at the effort they both put into NOT accepting that this just might be their fault or at least taking a look at it first before disavowing all responsibility for their shoddy work.

Now, here's the deal... I could fix this in less than 10 minutes myself...little bit of PVC glue and a ladder is all I'd need. Thing is, their warranty specifically states that if there is ANY sign of the homeowner being up on the roof, the warranty is null and void. So I can NOT fix it myself.

Here's what the pictures show...

https://photos.smugmug.com/Vista-Mon...LfXmwvd-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Vista-Mon...VwRPD6C-XL.jpg

Check out the paint line on the top of the vent the piece came off of.

Look real close at the inside of the piece that came off...

https://photos.smugmug.com/Vista-Mon...zt3Rzd5-XL.jpg

Clear case of improper install IMHO... The cap was never put all the way on the vent, nor was it ever glued. The one right next to it looks like it's ready to come off as well.

I sent an email (with read receipt) back to both the builder and the roofer CSRs explaining how this was NOT storm damage but instead improper install yesterday about noon...and included high res photos of the items in the email. I have still not heard back from either of them even though they both read the email not long after I sent it.

I paid well North of 2-3 times what one of Greg's car builds cost for this house and am having to have this battle over a 5 minute warranty fix on a "production" builder's product. :bitchslap:

Should I have to have this battle? IMHO not a chance. But what are my choices here? Blast the builder thru every channel I can to force them to fix it or just keep presenting the facts and the way I see it to them until they finally cave in and fix it like they should have from the very beginning.

These days it seems the first answer with any company when an issue comes up is almost ALWAYS "it's not my problem, it's somebody else's" until you can convince them it IS their problem. Sometimes it even takes drastic measures to convince them...this is the difference between the good ones and the not so good ones... I expect I'll have to have a relationship with the builder of my home for some time to come still, so I remain very friendly, very tactful, but yet very firm on what I expect from them. Eventually the facts will win out and we can both go forward still getting along...

The economy also plays into the problem. When everybody is flourishing attitudes can change. Egos swell and confidence rises when things are going well.

"I'm so busy right now, what do I care about burning a few bridges."

Guess what, the day isn't far off when you won't be that busy and the seeds you've sown will come back to bite you at the worst possible time. Amazing how that always seems to be the way it works out in this life.

Work hard and ALWAYS treat people right and you'll flourish regardless of circumstance. The tortoise and the truth are the best way to build an enterprise that will stand the test of time. You'll sleep well and money won't be an issue.

Here's how I'd fix it ---

Get a ladder

Climb up there with a can of cement

Done


Not worth the time spent on the phone call getting pissed off --- and not worth the time to wait for the newbie idiot that shows up 2 hours late.... and stuffs it back on without glue... so it comes off again next "storm". LOL

Mario -- Not putting you on the spot -- but it would help if you detailed the issues -- so maybe people get a better idea of what's gone on -- and to get a clearer picture in their heads of "is it Mario expecting too much vs the builder is shirking their duties".

I'm gonna make GW my spokesmen he's way better at explaining than I am. :lol: This is 100% exactly where I'm coming from ! JUST FIX THE THINGS THAT HAVEN'T BEEN CORRECT SINCE THE BEGINNING!!!!!!!!!!! This is all I'm asking!

So true Todd! I live by your last sentence .

Greg I'm going to put the whole order of events on my original build thread. As well as the ''FIXED'' problems. :captain1:

I didn't get mad about it...yet... Thankfully I have the necessary free time and take it as a personal challenge to correct those that are mistaken. :stirthepot:

Just playing devil's advocate here for a second though...how is me fixing this issue myself any different than you just bolting on a second catch can to the dirt missile? We both have the ability to fix the issues that we both shouldn't "have" to be fixing.

It seems like both "issues" can be traced back to a sub contractor not doing something properly and the contractor not quickly taking care of getting it fixed properly.

Only difference I see is I can possibly create a later warranty issue with the roof itself if I fix my issue.

My personal view is -- MY TIME IS VALUABLE -- a simple fix is a simple fix...... and to me - while it's someone else's "issue" -- I'm not willing to spend half a F'n day for something that takes 30 minutes total.

I'm not out to rub people's noses in their mistakes --- mistakes happen - everything can have an issue. We're talking about how people resolve issues that is what is important.

In other words --- if I had a brand new car and noticed the radiator hose was dripping coolant -- is that an issue for the builder?? Or should I just take a friggin wrench and 2 minutes of my time and just fix it. I'd just fix it.

If the builder put your window in and it won't open at all despite my clumsy best effort -- then I'm asking the builder to fix it.

what happens if your tail light is "floppy"?









too soon?



:peepwall:

I get that totally... The thing is though, that line is different for everyone because of "their" personal abilities.

I have a neighbor raising hell with the builder because the sand has washed out between the pavers in their driveway. They either don't think it's their responsibility to replace the sand that has washed out or can't...and are holding the builders feet to the fire to make them fix it under the warranty.

I can (and have already) picked sand up at the hardware store and swept it into the voids in my driveway...just part of being a homeowner in my eyes.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is for everyone to try to be reasonable on both sides and to do their best to take stock of the situation and come to a reasonable solution to the issues that come up.

I'm certain all of the builders reading this thread have had "that customer" that wants the sand in their driveway voids replaced at no charge and they cringe every time the customer calls and I'm certain all of the owners reading this thread have had "that builder" who refuses to fix their blatant screw ups because they are too busy or just don't care.

Whether they are one time deals on either side or standard operating procedure...should also be taken into consideration before final judgement is passed.

After reading these posts I have been doing a little of Don’s “navel gazing” regarding the subject myself. It is clear from multiple posts by qualified experts, including Greg, that you cannot expect a prototype car, especially a true race car contender, to be full up until it has had a great deal of testing, tuning, and refinement. Read Hutton’s post 42, Blake’s post 46, Ironwood’s post 51, and Weld’s post 58, which reads in part: ‘#3 -- Sutton built Dirt Missile.... $200K catalog car.... Expect to have LOTS of issues and LOTS of set up work and LOTS of testing and tuning.... but if you can't do little things even half right - and you are aware of an issue and don't bother to fix it -- and you cost me $50K in wasted time and effort.... you don't get to touch the car ever... because you're too F'n stupid. I'd prefer to pay someone double (not) to fix it.”

Two track sessions is not “LOTS of testing and tuning”. Sutton knew after the NASA event test what needed to be done, and he set about to do it as part of the expected series of “set-up, testing, and tuning”. Sutton’s post after the NASA event reads:

“The car was crazy fast, but it's not correct yet. The RSRT stuff I designed, like the chassis, suspension, brakes, 3rd Member & engine combo all worked well. Some of the things I just buy, also worked good, like the PPG Sequential transmission, QuarterMaster clutch & X-ineering "no lift" shift controller. But the ARE Dry Sump system had serious issues that were frustrating as Fu#$. So was the C&R cooling system. Both of those companies have awesome records of great products. But the systems they recommended that are "currently" on Greg's car did not work well at all. Gotta be fixed.

So back at the office, I'll be working with the cooling experts at C&R & the dry sump gurus at ARE to figure out what's wrong & make whatever changes are needed to Greg's car & future Track-Warriors. After we figure out what changes are needed to the dry sump system tank/plumbing/venting & cooling system, we'll bring Greg's car back to Randy's shop & make those upgrades/corrections. Well before it runs again. Frankly, we'll probably go test just to make sure the cooling system & dry sump vent don't have any issues & work as they should before going to another event.

At this time, the car is NOT plug n' play. Rob, I didn't want you to take me not posting a story with details as "all was great." I did want to announce the pool winner. As you know, it was rough. But we toughed it out & got a couple TTU wins which are really a testament to the car's capabilities & the crews perseverance. But we still have work to do.”

Greg, for reasons of his own and which he has attempted to explain in his posts, elected to terminate Sutton’s involvement and eliminated the opportunity for him to make things right. The car was fast out of the box, due primarily to a solid, well thought out suspension design. It needed finish work and correction of the Sutton-identified issues. Oil venting from high horsepower, dry-sump LS motors, for example, is a continuing problem (just read the Corvette racing or LS forums), but there are known solutions. Wiring and the body needed to be cleaned up – okay…all part of the process.

An individual can terminate a contract or relationship any time he chooses, but to slander the other party or use that as a basis to mount a campaign to wreck his business is just wrong. It’s fair to state your case, but to “imply” that the problem is wide spread without providing adequate supporting documentation in a vindictive effort to harm the other party is unethical.

Ron Sutton has provided a valuable service to this community with his knowledge and willingness to share that knowledge. Many of you who have jumped on the bandwagon have multiple posts on Ron’s suspension stickys asking for free advice. It was a bold step to try to create a business catering to the true performance end of the Pro-touring community. Someone asked why he thought he could compete with Summit or Jegs. Who wants to wade through pages of generic parts to get to real, quality performance parts tailored to our type of project? Have you tried to call Summit and ask for a quote on a very custom sway bar from Speedway Engineering? – How did that work out for you? Ron did that for me, and I got the bar in 3 weeks. He let me order a set of Forgeline wheels under one of his sales events, even though I didn’t have the backspace dimensions worked out yet. A couple of months later, when I got my act together and gave him the info, he ordered the wheels that day at the sales price (and free shipping). I have never had an issue with his service or responsiveness, although sometimes you have to wait for his supplier to provide unique or custom-order parts.

I know this post will irritate some members of the “club”, but so be it.

Pappy

I am not a subject matter expert regarding six figure custom built cars. Not even close and I did not mean to imply that I am. I’ve steered clear of the whole Sutton Weld debacle for that precise reason. My navel gazing was not directed at that build. I was just sharing some general thoughts from an engineering perspective.

Don

You pack the POS with tannerite and put in a field out 1500 yards and light it up.....

Here's something you'll learn with PAVERS ---- that's not just ordinary "sand" in the gaps -- or sure as hell shouldn't be -- there's an actual sand for pavers called POLYMERIC that when you add some moisture - sets up and stays in place.

Nobody is irritated.... and most have no axe to grind.

I'm not going to regurgitate the Sutton debacle in here..... and all I'm going to say about that is #1 -- you weren't a part of it (my build or any of the track events).... and you really "had to be there" to fully understand. Trust me when I tell you the people that were there -- were a whole lot "rougher" about it than I was.

#2 -- It's been stated on Lateral G MANY TIMES -- there was / is adequate "evidence" for the website to take action. It's also been stated several times - that what people share in private is not for others to "out" them.

#3 -- Sutton ruined his own business. It started WAY WAY WAY before my build. You just don't want to see it.

I was at the IMSA GT races this weekend -- with friends that have been racing and building cars for YEARS.... and IMSA GT racing is a little bit above where we all are... Ya think? They (my friends) had already seen the chassis work and lower control arms etc -- and they were mortified by what they saw. None would run the car. So "being fast" isn't all of what makes a car good....

There were MANY REASONS for firing his sorry ass..... But mostly because he's clueless.

Don don't bother trying to explain yourself.:knock:

''I know this post will irritate some members of the “club”, but so be it.''

First off I don't get the whole club thing . Nothing was said about Ron in this conversation. I don't really know you or what kind of car you have . With that being said until you get it shoved up your a@# after spending 2-300 thousand on a car that was ''PROFESSIONALLY'' done l think you would become a ''CLUB'' member !:thankyou:

Something I posted in the build thread I think bears repeating here...

I hope you can come out the other side of this still having some love for your car. I've only seen pics, but it is absolutely stunning. Please try to move through getting the problems worked out so you can enjoy the car. I can understand how just thinking about it sours the dream... it's not the car's fault, and the car overall is amazing!


Jeff-

Poor Benny

He will be missed.

I have one last thought, comment on this subject before I have Jody close it up . As I followed GW on his journey to GOOD GUY'S TEXAS, Seeing GW enjoy the heck out of his truck was awesome to watch as the trip went along. As I watched this I couldn't help to think about all the jerkoff's that screwed this guy around and all they gave up by not taking care of this man. He finally has a shop that got it right for him and I believe they now have a customer for life plus all the referrals that this guy is going to send them. It's a win win for the shop . In the beginning when I started my shop I was going gang busters so it was easy to think who gives a **** if a guy's not happy there's going to be another customer right behind him. Well after about a year or so business started dropping off . And it wasn't hard to figure out why. It took me a long time to bounce back . I still see some of those customers who I will never get back. They go to other shops that take care of them. Plus you don't facture in the people you lost because bad word of mouth goes around a lot faster than good! When this happens it humbles you in a hurry trust me ! I did a lot of soul searching during that time and changed my whole perspective around on how I needed to do business. I was fortunate to be able to save my business but it doesn't always work that way. So I say go right ahead keep thinking your THE guy your shop is full of cars . Keep screwing people over and it won't be long before you figure it out like I did!!!:thankyou::animated_bye_bye_em

Bingo !!!!!!