I agree, there are a lot of good posts and tons of good info. :thumbsup: The good thing about open track versus 'race days? Our open track days are considered 'driving schools' ;) and most insurance companies will still cover the car. If it is timed or competetive, insurance is usually null and void. :yes:

They might look at him funny anyway...... :lol:

Randy

Oh, and start shopping for a good extinguisher just in case.

Don't get the standard powdered type, the powder is HIGHLY corrosive to aluminum... especially when you try and rinse it off afterwards.

Although if there's one thing Murphy taught me it's that your extinguisher never seems to be big enough... :willy:

If 1 is good, 2 are better, although a in-car suppression system AND a supplemental hand extinguisher is best. No sense in filling your interior with junk unless you absolutely have to!

The rear suspension is good to go, except for sway bar selection. The front is stock except for the poly bushings. I notice a lot of understeer with the setup I have now in high speed sweepers. I thought B body spindles helped camber and you could get bumpsteer spacers??

The camber gain is nice on the B body spindles, but the bumpsteer spacers don't work properly, as the spacers put the tie rod lower, and it needs to go higher. The turning radius also sucks on the b body spindle.
Best option is the Stage 2 SC&C kit, or our AFX tall spindles with steering arms. With our tall AFX spindle, you get all the camber gain you could ever want, your turning radius doesn't get effected, track width remains the same, and our bumpsteer is the best in the industry. You want to go fast on the road course, and have a C5 brake package, then we are your E ticket.

Tyler

Yeah this is a great thread, not only do we get to give great advice, we can stroke our egos at the same time! :rofl: :rofl: ............... :_paranoid

With springs in the weight ranges I suggested a rear sway bar should not be required at except as a tuning aid to dial in a little more oversteer (aka: driver preference.) I run no rear bar and the rear drifts ever so slightly with my setup which is exactly what I wanted.

Given the stock way of mounting a rear sway bar to an A-body the swaybar effectiveness is marginal at best which is why I prefer to tune the rear with springs rather than a bar. If it comes down to needing a rear bar a MUCH better way to do it would be to retrofit a 3rd gen F-body sway bar setup on the car, where the bar swivels on bushings attached to the axle tube then there are hard uplinks going to the frame.

My setup is as follows:

Front: B-body spindles, alignment specs of +5.5 caster / -1.0 camber / 0 toe, 1.125" sway bar, 750# springs (going to 900 or 950# when I change the spindles.) 255/45/17 tires on 9.5" wheels. The car does pull a little bit to the right on the street because I have no cross caster to compensate for road crown. Doesn't bug me, don't have any cross camber or caster in my daily driver either.

Rear: GW TBC-4 lowers, Edelbrock uppers with rubber in the rear end ears, Hypercoil 175# springs. 285/40 tires on 11" wheels.

Shocks all around are Edelbrock IAS which have better rebound control than most in the price range, but still aren't ideal. I am looking at picking up some single adjustable Varishocks from a friend who is a WD for them.

Given the weight of an A-body I chose tires that would end up being installed on the widest wheels recommended by the mfg to minimize sidewall deflection/squirm. I may try a 275/40 & 315/35 setup next time to see if the additional rubber (theoretically more overall grip) outweighs negatives of additional sidewall squirm (theoretically less turn-in feel) compared to the current setup.

As far as the stock front suspension... no wonder you're pushing! The stock suspension has terrible camber gain properties-- in fact, it's reversed! It goes positive on compression. Bump steer is so-so and the roll center is too low. It has everything designed in backwards to what you want in a performance app, but is perfectly safe for grandma (i.e. it pushes really, really badly!)

B-body spindles help raise the roll center a bit and change the FVSA to give better camber gain but they also slow the steering ratio, screw up ackermann, and dramatically increase the bump steer. For a long time it was the "hot ticket" simply because there were no other alternatives short of custom, but now there are lots better options... SC&C stage 2 with stock spindles, ATS spindles, or the "Denny" setup with the Coleman spindles, although with the Colemans and their pin drop that setup is best utilized on very low ride heights. I believe the Coleman setup is better than the AFX setup geometry wise by a hair (and I mean a tiny, tiny bit) but for more "street friendly" ride heights the AFX has the advantage because it puts the control arms in a more favorable spot for lateral scrub because the AFX spindles have less pin drop. If used at the more street friendly ride height the Coleman setup puts the control arms at a slightly less favorable angle. If you don't mind your front X-member about 2.5" off the pavement with 25.7" tall tires then the Coleman setup is pretty badass... at least with stock control arm locations and lengths. Getting much better than the AFX or Coleman setup would likely require custom control arms and revised mounting locations.

Sure.

Hmm, Right now I am looking at Hal adjustables in all 4 corners, HR parts rear bar, 500lb springs in front with 150's in rear(I need to tune with a roll bar to have a little more weight transfer, I have alot of power to hook), C5 front discs and calipers. Not sure on tires yet, I have to see what brands are available in my sizes.
I just need to research front suspension geometry and make some front control arms. Anyone try the longer ball joints to correct the negative camber problem?? I have not heard anything negative.
This stuff should get me going enough to make the car work pretty well I think. I also need to tighten up my steering a little, I can steer closk to lock with my pinky finger! It is so easy to steer that If I wasn't more used to the car, it could be dangerous. The wife has been complaining when she tries to accelerate or corner quick, it is to easy to over compensate... kind of dangerous for her. Anyone know of any tricks to lower the pressure in the ls1 steering pump??

Great input!

Great idea, on the steering gear, that alone will make a huge differnec. Your suspension setup idea sounds good for the street/strip but not all that great for the track. However you don't have to have the super track suspension just to go. But I wouldn't be thinking about trying to go super fast like you have with that setup.

OK... here are some suggestions:

The HAL/QA1 shocks are old-news. For a resonably priced adjustable shock there is no better option going right now than Varishocks IMO and also based upon track experience with a friend who runs them on a couple of his Mustangs that see HARD track time. The Varishocks hold damping rates much better and the "street" versions have much better and more durable bushings compared to QA1s. Marcus at SC&C feels the same way about them too. Same price as QA1's, too. There are many better choices out there but they all come with a bigger pricetag.

No offense but your car is gonna wallow like a pig with those softy springs and I know this from experience, I used to run springs with nearly identical rates as what you suggested (550/150) and tried all different bar combinations up to a max of 1.5" front / 1.125" rear... all of them sucked IMO. Feel free to try sticking some massive bars on there to compensate for it but having done the soft spring/big bar and then the big spring/soft bar approach on my car the big spring/soft bar approach works better and is much more predictable. (If you do try the big bar approach make sure you reinforce the mounts in the front frame for the bar before that big bar tears the bolts through the tapped holes in the frame.) Counting on the springs to do your weight transfer isn't the best way, better way is through suspension geometry. This isn't the drag strip so no need for 90/10 shocks and softie springs! Swapping springs on these cars is a piece of cake anyways.

No need (or reason IMO) to make new front control arms unless you want to increase their length and run more backspace on the front wheels for less scrub radius, but unless you move the spring pocket outwards too the longer arms will have a undesireable change in the motion ratio. The stock arms with plate reinforcements for the LBJ will be plenty good, or go to aftermarket (I like GW and del-a-lums.) Marcus's kit with the tall BJ's does an excellent job with the geometry and you can still use your stock spindle.

As far as your steering... short of custom, I'm still in love with my DSE 600 series box. Superb feel with u-joints on the steering shaft and all fresh steering bits. The Lee Mfg / ATS box would be a fantastic choice too.

With your power level and car weight, you are right to worry about your brake system. Having a brake failure on a high speed track could endanger you and others on the track. Repeated laps will heat up all the systems in your car so coolers are needed for almost everything. I've seen power steering heat failures, so include a PS cooler too. A good aftermarket box with increased stiffness is what you need. Reducing pressure on your current box will show up in lack of boost when parking at low rpm's, not what you want.

My wife's 425hp 73 Camaro with the 13" Baer brakes went through the original pads in the first open track weekend. We swapped in better pads and increased braking distances and they are lasting much better, but there is no way we can brake near the limits of tire traction for repeated laps. We get some brake fluid related fade when we brake very hard which tells me our caliper temps are running very high. Our next step is to add brake ducting which will help a lot. We used the Valvoline fluid at first, but Motul or Willwood synthetic has a higher temp rating.

For your car I'd strongly suggest using the largest rotors you can fit and a good four piston caliper. The C5 brakes are not going to fit in your 17" wheels. Add brake ducts and brake early for the turns, enter the turns a bit slow and take a late apex to reduce the chances of going off course on corner exit. At the end of the track session, (checkered flag) -slow down and stay off the brakes, allow them to cool down or you will melt the seals out of the calipers when you stop. Cool off laps are for cooling off, not getting in an "extra" hot lap!

RA is a very fast track, you need to upgrade your steering box, springs shocks and antiroll bars, etc. It will make the car much easier to drive on the track.
David

David, are you sure? I've seen C5 calipers inside several 17" wheels, however the calipers need quite a bit of face clearance and depending on the backside spoke profile of the wheels you might need spacers (or different wheels.) Just asking for some clarification.

Super good info!

I was looing at Hals for the front, because I like that the fronts replace the shock AND spring and turns it into a wanna be coil over to adjust ride height. The longer ball joints sound like they might be the cheapest and easiest route to correct some of the front geometry problems. I am very suprised the C5 brakes have heat up issues that bad... That is why I am a little comcerned with the brakes, Having a car that gets up and moves instantly, I will be going faster between turns which means I will be harder on the brakes, Big time! It was mentioned that the calipers might be the culprit in getting to hot, could a large Brembo, Wilwood, or Alcon caliper solve that? Or does it partly come down to rotor size? It might help me a little that I have 315's in the rear... I am getting away with quite a bit of break bias shifted to the rear, that takes a little load off the front brakes!

I was going to try to use a little heavier sway bar to compensate for semi weak springs so I would still have a little more weight transfer, If I take away all the weight tranfer, the car will never hook up and be fairly dangerous. Plus trying to hook up now is a problem. I realize I cannot have the best of both worlds, but I want to try to retain some transfer if possible. Anyone lake the adjsutable BIG BAR type rar sway bar kit for the Chevelle that sets the bar on the rear end? I was looking at some mustang sights that offer them, but most are a tad to short to get the mounts on the frame in the correct spot in the rear.

Concerning the front coilover kits for a-bodies... because of their "bolt in" nature they are less than ideal and in the case of QA1 (at least a while back when I considered it) there really aren't any springs available that are heavy enough to do the job right. Also, because the spring sits against the spring perch up in the frame and the shock swivels on the upper bushings the spring induces some sideloading on the shaft and shock body because the spring is working against two different points of reference rather than against the shaft and the body only. If you wanted to do coilovers up front do it RIGHT and mod the upper frame mount with a double shear setup to hold a true coilover (i.e. one with the spring seated on the coilover body itself and not against the frame) with a rod end for the upper end of the coilover mount, similar to what DSE does with their coilover conversions for stock F-body subframes.

An easier and cheaper solution is to use the adjustable spring spacers with 9.5" x 5" circle track springs and standard shocks. I've been running that setup for a while now and it works very well for not much money, plus the springs are cheap so you can keep an inventory for fine tuning.

I suppose the "real" coilovers would not be a hard swap in the front. I would just have to figure out a length and travel I needed to make them work.
The ATS spindles say they come with the C5 hub. Does this mean it has the 5x5 bolt circle?? Does anyone know if they are available without the hubs. I would just need the spindles.

What negative effects have people encountered from using stiff sway bars to support the car in turns versus just the springs? Like I said earlier, Being that this is a driver, I need it to have a little more weight transfer then 900 lb springs will give me!

Sorry, I was thinking of the C6 Z06 brakes not the C5 brakes.

One thing I've found out is the Baer two piston calipers we have on the 73 use aluminum pistons. While light, they transmit a lot of heat into the brake fluid. There are Stainless steel aftermarket Corvette racing pistons you can buy but they delete the dust seals, "since they melt anyway" I was told. Surf the net for Corvette brake issues, there are lots of vettes being run in open track events.

I suspect most late Camaro and C5 std calipers use the aluminum pistons too, which makes them less than ideal for track use on a heavy car.
David

Do you have stock front coils now?

:D i know, i know

I still say, put some decent brakes on, or even leave the stock ones on, and go to the track, learn it, and have fun. THEN upgrade the car heavily. You need to first see if you like it. Its easy to come up wtih pipe dreams about building the most killer track car and such, but you end up putting all your time and effort into building the car, not building your skills. If you can put the speed thing to the side, I think you would benefit from actually attending 1 trackday first, and then deciding what you want to do with the car. But if you are still insiting on being ricky racer I would recommend to maybe go to a school first and use one of their cars.

I see what your saying, but at least if the car is setup 1st, I can concentrate more on driving. My car would be pitifull right now (except between turns :D ).
I have been drag racing the car for 13 years. I know if I start going to a road track, Just like drag rading, I will love it, I have not gone because my car has not been setup to take advantage of a road track.
This winter I will put a bar in for now and get the suspension/brakes squared away. The brakes seem to be an easy choice(C5), but suspension/shocks/steering is the hard part as there are alot of choices and different directions to go. I am taking a liking to those AFX spindles!

I have stock cut coils in the front now. I guess it would be as easy as welding a perch on both the lower control arm and and up into the stock spring pocket to get a coilover shock in there. I wonder if they make a 500+ lb spring for a standard coilover?

The AFX spindles are def sweet!

One thing will happen that I'd like to warn you about.

Having a car with poor cornering but lots of horsepower is tough for other cars you will be on track with. To prevent irritating them please allow quicker cars to pass you when you get to the next straight stretch. Avoid mashing the gas to show them how much horsepower you have. Just let them by and get on with learning how to get your car around the track.

It's very frustrating to follow a slower car through the turns just to have him leave you on the straights and then wind up back on his bumper at the next turn. RA is a long track and after you let them by it will be easier to concentrate on getting the corners right without someone on your tail.

Following this recomendation will gain you a lot of respect from others who share the track with you.
David

You have questions about the spindles?
Try this:
http://www.t56kit.com/FAQ/

FYI- The C5 hub is standard 5 on 4.75" bolt pattern, but it does use a metric lig of 12mmx1.5 thread pitch.

Tyler

Yes, that is the worst. What this also does is make you someone else go faster, when you have to past the slow people on the straight aways, they always try and gun it. So to pass them you have to go faster than what you are usually comfortable with, and it can make you enter the turn faster and either crash or make you stress.

This thread is full of great info, maybe there should be a sticky about if you are serious about going to the track.

This is turning into good info! (after you finished bashing me for no good reason.)

I weill have to get a local rule book on R/A, but I assume you cannot go fast at all untill you prove yourself?? Otherwise, any idiot newbie in a 1 million horsepower car could go there and kill himself or others! :_paranoid

Those AFX spindles are great! I wonder if he would take a pair of turbos in trade!, Or maybe a coin collection, stamp collection, Wife, or RC car!!LOL :D

Hey ATS..... Are those available without the hubs? Just need the spindles.

How large are the new ZO6 rotors?? I don't see why the C5 calipers would not work with the newer o6 rotors?

the c5 calipers will work with the c6 z-51 brake package which the front rotors measure 13-3/8 actual, and a full 13 on the rear rotors, compared to i htink 12.8 and 11 on the reg c5 stuff, all you need to do the z-51 is c5 calipers and z-51 rotors and abutments(mounts)
the c6 z06 brakes are completely different and will not interchange

No one is bashing you, only trying to help you out. After everyone is trying to help you, that is what you say? :mad:
They don't care what car you have, just how experienced you are. And what you described is what we are trying to keep you from doing. I hope you take something positive away from all this

I know, I'm just having fun!

:D

Yes, but you have to supply us with your hubs. We MUST install them, as it requires special fixtures and tooling.


Tyler

What is the charge? What is the cost without the hubs?? Shoot me a P.M. I need to start putting a dollar figure on this stuff.

Also, does that mean if a bearing goes bad I have to send the whole spindle back in? After it is in the car, what fixturing could you possibly need?? I change these quite a bit at the shop, just curious?

I think "just the hub" isn't part of the entire hub assembly. I believe that the entire hub assembly bolts to the spindle, but I could be totally off on this?

We use a stud on the bottom of our flange, which requires our fixture for drilling,, and when these are not installed on the car, it is impossible to torque the bolts correctly.
Bottom line is we will sell AFX spindles without hubs, but we will not ship them until we install your supplied hubs. We rarely get a request for this as most people who think they can save a few $$ find out that 1 hub typically cost 3/4 of what our spindles do.
The other reason is liability. I know we install them correctly, so I cannot be held responsible for a failure due to improper install. Pricing on the bare AFX spindle is $445 for a pair.


Tyler

Track instructors watch for overdriving and if the student doesn't show some self-control he will be talked to and eventually booted off the track before he hurts himself or someone else.

Learning the proper racing line is all-important. You can't begin to get a good lap time until you know exactly where you need to place the car in every turn and straight, and can do it with consistently.

Another thing you will learn is having a car on your butt will mess up your driving. You are allready 100% focused on driving your car, then a fast vette get's on your tail and you will start driving even harder to shake him or at least show him you are not so slow. THAT'S when you are most likely to drop a wheel off the track or make some other mistake. I tend to hurry my shifts when I'm in that situation and can sometimes miss a shift.
David

This is very true, I had a someone pass my on the long straight at T-hill. Once we got into turn 1 I could tell he was overdoing it. He had to keep up the speed because he thought he was faster than I was(possibly was?) he didn't want to pass me and then have me on his ass. We went into turn 2 and he went really deep. Well 2/3's of the way into turn 2(high speed long decreasing radius turn) he literally lost confidence in the turn, ran wide, and went right off the track at prob 80-90mph. He went into the turn faster than he was comfortable with because he felt pressured to keep up the speed. THat was his mistake, I could of made a mistake by trying to speed up to not let him pass me, then I would of been the one to probably go off. But on a bike its cool because you can pass people IN the turn all day long, its harder to do in a car, and some track organizers don't allow it.

Good story.
You eventually learn where the line is, then when you pass someone approaching a turn for the first time, you wind up driving deep into the turn and your approach is now off-line because the car you are passing is on your "usual" line. It's hard to judge your speed entering this way and you can run off on corner exit. The effects of nearby cars on your concentration need to be considered in advance since they are pretty significant. Especially when you are new at it. I spent half a race in June at Sears Pt with a faster car behind me. I was just a bit slower in the turns but had more power than he did. If he could have gotten a fender up beside me, I would have let him go ahead but he couldn't do it, so I just watched him carefully in my mirrors. It's hard to focus on driving well when that happens.

Here's some open track car prep discussion from pro-touring.com. http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8701

Its gonna at least take you half the day just to learn to look through the turn properly. Always keep your eyes and head looking at the end of the turn, never in front of you. If you look in front of you on a high speed turn, chances are you will run straight off the road. This is a huge factor when you first start out, not only will you stay on track looking THROUGH the turn but it won't seem as fast.

Also when in traffic, dont fixate on cars in front of you. In genearl humans tend go where they look, so if you are looking at the car in front of you, instead of through/end of the turn, you will go whey they go. If they run off the the track, so will you. If they run a ****ty line, so will you. When in traffic and looking to pass or something, look at the open space not the car.

just gonna throw out my worthless opinion........ with all the $$$ tied up in your car, and having no seat time at a real racetrack.... i think that it would be a great idea to look into a few driving schools. while a 250hp mustang with sticky tires and good set-up might not sound like "fun" compared to your car.... you will be given a chance to learn the basics, from there you will know what to expect out of your own car....and what you need to do with your car in order to make it "work".

its good that you are here askin for opinions, and its good to see that your mentality has changed for the better somewhat in the last 8 pages, but i think you should post a question like this over at corner-carvers...... and let the education begin.

In that same vein I suggest you take your car to an auto-x or two first.

Boy wouldn't that be a hoot. I'm playing that one out in my head. :D

Hey, my post asked about good brakes going 150 mph +..... CORRECT! What is so bad about that question????????????? Show me a car on here that would not go 150 mph on R/A. That is my local track, and I need brakes thet will not fail or fade going those speeds. Everyone on here has HUGE brakes, and that is why I asked you guys! :yes:
I While I appreciate the pointers, for some reason some feel the need to tell me about everything else I will need or should'nt. I am a good driver, I like to go fast and push the limits, that's why I will be going to the track, to be able to go farther and get better. Some of you keep talking like I am going to go to the track and drive like some idiot, Or way to fast, that is pretty insulting! Just like everyone else, I am going to the track, get advise, and start taking laps untill I get better and faster like everyone else. ;)
Some of you kept on topic offering good advice and pointers, especially in the brake and suspension dept. Thanks! :D
I don't feel at this point I need to go to the track to see what the car needs. I have driven the car for 13 years and Pretty much no the weak points. Besides, with the Drag radials and the small front disc brakes, and pushing front end, I would have a few problems.


Right now, unless someone steps up with a better or different alternative, I am going with the AFX tall spindles, C5 calipers, and maybe the new Z06 rotors, I am going to buy a rotor to see if it will work, looks like it will. I just need to calculate an overall dimension from centerline to see if the calipers will not hit the rim of my wheel with the 14" rotors. I parked between a c5 and a c6 zo6 yesterday and it looks promising! A little more leverage will help, plus the new rotors look beefier then the c5 setup.