Got it. So I call up E&C Spring in Escondido, CA and say that I'd like to order a set of springs. When they ask for specifics, I reply "I dunno. Some guy named Tom from the internet will contact you with a print." Will I need a secret handshake or a password?

Sounds silly. People frequent message boards looking for straight answers. The come for solutions. They trust that smart guys such as yourself will set them straight and make their lives easier. Your furtive, roundabout response leaves people stuck in the mud. "....Crap! The smart guy says the Quadra-Link and commercially available leaf springs don't work!"

The Thrasher is a really fun and predictable track car and it has rear leafs from Landrum spring Co. Virtually everyone on this site could have a great track day with rear leafs.

Are you guys done? You do know it's just about Christmas, right? I'm not going to pick sides, I'm friends with both of you, so I'll respectfully ask that you guys relax a bit.

Thanks. :)

Good to hear! But didn't you say after the track day a couple-few months ago that the Mule was your favorite camaro for the track now? Was that because of power, braking, front suspension, or the rear suspension? I know there is a lot to factor in, but does the Mule just plain drive better than your leaf sprung cars?

I'm hoping all the work I put into my 4-bar will be worth it!!

Thanks Charlie!!

Sorry Scott. I think Tom and I both have thick skin, so the exchange might look worse than it is. I'm done.

Steve, for what it's worth I though it was a good idea to remind all of us the differance between street/open track day driving and full on racing. It's easy to get all caught up in the 'you gotta have these parts' deal, and it's always nice to have a reminder that the basic parts do get the job done for 99% of us...but if the budget allows it's also OK to go for it and get the neet stuff!!

I for one would have been a lot further along with my build if I wouldn't have gone with a hand built c/o based rear suspension...but it's finished now and I'm glad I did it! But in all reality for the type of driving I'm going to do, drop leafs and offset shackels probably would have done the trick....

No worries, Steve. I just thought it may spiral out of control.

I'm game.. given my IQ and my jovial attitude I know what team I would play on.. lol

I was very happry with both the Mule and the Thrasher. I'm not a race guy so I am not one that is going to push the car to the limits to where a small advantage in suspension will make a difference. The Thrasher is now owned by a friend so it is no longer a track day option for me. Both cars just felt right at home on the track.

I am with you Stuart :thumbsup:
However, my little bu did pretty good at the last "unsanctioned,unorganized, unprofessional, proved nothing" event. One thing though, it was fun as hell.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/0612phr_video_01.mov
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/0612phr_video_02.mov
One thing I do know, you could not wipe the smile off of any of the driver's faces as they came back around to run one more time. Whether it was Kyle Tucker, Bret, or Jim Grayson, everyone had that same silly smile everytime. I guess that one day they were all Happy Idiots. Sorry, no professors there that day that I can remember. Wait, did I just bring this tread back to what it should all be about, enjoying our cars, surely not.....
Hopefully we will have another event where we can truely get some of these "True performance cars" to attend. I am dieing to see how they measure up to all the ones I have seen run. I bet a round of drinks, right here right now, that they too will be within a second of everyone else there. Any takers???
I get some good tires and a few more cubes and I might win without a quadralink or leaf springs..... :lol:
Did I mention it was fun?
Thanks PHR for the video! :thumbsup:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eve...driving_event/

OH yeah, about four weeks later, with rubber still on the quarters from the event, I drove it to Daytona and back, 1500+ miles. If I can just get that radio fixed..... I will have a pro TOURING car..... :lol:

Sorry Scott. Steveo's right... we're pretty thick skinned.

I will say that our debates have always been a good one... no matter what it is or what its about. Not to worry... I see no bad blood here, nor in the future. If this actually went down in public and everyone saw the rib shots, joking and carry-ing on... it wouldnt look as bad as this thread has read.

Well, yes. I have had a friendship and working relationship with Tony and his late father for many, many years. They have done all my builds, from the land speed record stuff to the ProTrucks and all the way to the freakishly articulating rock crawlers. We have always worked well that way, and frankly, its because it has always worked for us. We collectively take care of the technical stuff so you dont have to. I do the drawing, Tony and I do the math per-say, and we make sure you get exactly what it is your requirements need, to the best of our abilities. The financial transaction is between the end user and the spring company... as that is not my gig. I have always done the spring drawings and the foot work for free.

I never once stated that they wouldnt work. I did however, state that there are better ways to skin the cat and have custom, chassis specific, affordable parts that work better than the average.

The Thrasher was also Marks favorite track car, as I remember, from his stories of that peticular chassis. Probably my most favorite Stielow car of all time.... well.... right next to the Red Witch. Which is right next to the Mule.... which.... is in.... Charlie's garage. Damn that guy.

Thanks guys for "intresting" lesson of rear suspension options.


Well actually i still dont know what to do.. I do not want the wheel hope , because i like to leave hard and spin tires just for fun :P and still want the lower good looking stance wich i have seen is possible with DSE drop leafs. Front end will be DSE coil over kit on stock sub frame. I think i can trust DSE have worked these kits to work together ?


So is it possible order a set from you ? If i send all info i can get to you and cost will be somewhere even close as DSE leafs ? Do i get good "4/10" racing / street / good stance / no wheel hope leafs ? If so i am really intrested.

As Scott said lets keep this civil so i and rest of the regular joes can learn as much as possible :thumbsup:

I'll take a new ZO6 right out of the box and be done with all this leaf, QL, etc.etc. QL would be my choice if I was involved in this pissing contest.

Like SW sais why thrash your pro touring car when you can take a stock ZO6 and kick booty.

Good job Scott for settling down the neighborhood.

I have two leaf spring cars here at my disposal--One with Hotchkis springs, one with DSE springs. The Hotchkis car does not suffer any wheel hop or axle tramp whatsoever. The DSE car (mine) has begun to exhibit some wheel hop under hard straightline acceleration. But only after swapping from a 12 bolt to a 9". Before the 9" there was zero wheel hop. I will check pinion angle here in a coupla weeks.

The car with Hotchkis leafs has DSE coilover conversion, ATS spindles, Konis, and DSE A-arms. Tires are 255/45-18 Toyos

Thanks Steve(again!!) for real life data :thumbsup:

One more dump question. Is there any reason to control side to side movement with leafs ? I know panhard pan may not be the best one for leafs.

No, deflection is not a major concern with leaf springs. It does occur, but minimally. That's why I am able to get away with running a 285mm tire and 10" wheel in a stock wheelwell.

Who wouldn't?

Actually, I'm guessing a lot of us wouldn't.

Let's face it, many of us have (or will have) the cost of a ZO6 in one or more vintage cars. I know I could likely sell my Camaros and everything I have for them and get pretty close to the cost of a ZO6. But then all I have is a ZO6 which will depreciate pretty rapidly, as compared to my 3 first gens which will, at worst, not go down in value as quickly as a ZO6.

In addition, I have the pleasure of knowing every nut and bolt on my cars, and knowing that the performance they exhibit is the result of my research, time and effort. No one driving a ZO6 has that feeling.

Great! leafs it is :cool:

Thanks Stuart reminding me of SWs awsome camaro. I was just viewing it. It has leafs and 335 too :hail:

Variety is the spice of life. I'll take one of each.

Good reading :thumbsup:

Hey... the Z06 uses leaf springs !! :lol:

Have you got any info between 9" or 12 bolt? I have planned to go with offset DSE leafs but so far thought 9" would be better? But if not i would like to have opinion. I think my tire choise will be 275 at front and 335 at rear.

I believe this is important therd to keep alive. I am looking for most bang for the buck in name of as good handling as possible. I finally got answered from DSE to my question wich was :

Q:Plese give me your honest opinoin here: Do i really need the Quadralink with DSE front suspension or can i go with your 3" drop springs ? Can i notice the difference with 100% street driving skills ??

A:4. The 3” drop springs work good, but the QUADRA-Link takes it to the next level. In our testing there was vast improvement in all “road coarse” and “drag strip” numbers

That was good reply from DSE but i cant imagine "how good" the improvement really is with average joe driving skill.

Kyle states both the quality of the ride and performance is improved which is pretty sweet. Its surely not a NEED but like a channel changer, once used always wanted. Jason's FUEL has the Q link and was on PT, maybe he will post about it.

we do all four link rear ends on our Camaros with air bags or Coil overs and they are far better then the springs. We did one car with a set of springs and did not like the way it handled at all. The four link is by far the best way to go if you dont mind cutting the car up and can do your own fab or have a shop that can do it for you. Its about a days labor to get it all in depending on what way you run the rear set up.

I have DSE 3" leafs with the basic red Koni classics. They ride pretty rough compared to stock, but the roads here do suck. But on the plus side, it was a pretty cheap setup, and my Camaro's a$$ is no longer sky high. Along with the barney bolt on 2" drop front coils and Konis my ride no longer has the Caddy lean in the canyons. Still a long way from sporty, but that is just a matter of dough for wheels at this point. The rest of the stuff is sitting around in boxes teasing me.

One advantage of the pixie dust springs is not relying on a vendor for the long haul. What if the PT style fades and these companies disappear? Where you gonna find that funky bushing made for a link system from a company that is no longer around? Leafs are the stock configuration and there will likely always be some old fart that can design and build good ones. One disadvantage of the pixie dust springs may be the need for some really $pendy shocks. Or not.

I plan on one day going with the LD 3-linky, but for now leafs will do. I also plan on going with 9.5" rear wheels to start, but since I will be spending the bucks on Forgelines (still saving Frank), I can go wider later if I need to (3-piece makes it cheaper). I'm not sure how much more than a 285 I would need if I stick with the standard 245 front anyway.

I guess my point is I'm willing to sacrifice some performance and money to have budget pro-touring now, with a little more refined setup later. I want to drive as much as possible, so a little lost cash selling used stuff when I upgrade is more than worth it to me.

Good info in this thread. I've ignored it until tonight - I thought it was just another "what kind of wheels should I get" thang. :lateral: -eric

P.S. It's freaking cold here right now.

I was doing much the same as Boulder.... Great reading in fact!

Chris, your the only one who brought "Bags" to the discussion. Having read good stuff on the Air bar and such, anyone care to discuss that style of hang? I'm almost there on ordering an airbar for mine and for sure interested in performance, but the ease of tuning, of height adjustment and RIDE QUALITY are also important. I saw the article where the AB bested the QL, so to me it sounds interesting (make that no brainer) to get all the advantages of the AB for less $.

Opinions?

Also, Chris, did you get the message on me asking the size of the wheels/ tires on the blue Yenko 69 you give the link to? I'm interested in comparing other 69's with 19"s up front as i just got mine and am unsure of tire size to run. Thanks!

In ride, not all out performance.

Do you have a link to the article?
David

Doesn't air bags mess with the front geometry? Screws up the camber or whatever?

Nope, Best Lap.

I'll try and find it.

Lead.

Yes, when your on the ground..But you dont roll at that height. You set the suspension at ride height so its at the good setting while rolling down the road.

Lead.

I think second best lap and by a professional driver no less.

Yeah, i think you might be right, i think it was second best.

Still. Secon on a field of Hi perf proven systems. Thats MORE than AWESOME for the advantages the Air bar offers (flexibility, height adjustment and as you mentionned yourself....Ride quality)

Nobody wanted to hear about Air a few short months ago, so being right on the a$$ of the "Best" (and do you recall the difference in time, it wasn't much at all if i remember) its worth being considered, hey, you get more fore less$!

My point of view.

Thanks for remembering Maz,

Lead.

I looked for the article but cant find it on the net, gotta look at my mags i guess. If i find it i'll post it for everyones benefit.

Lead, I already posted it above. :thumbsup:

Cool, just received it.

It wasn't on when i checked in, we must have been typing at the same time:lol: .

Hey, Thanks!!!

Lead.

Read that thread again: QUOTE: me "After the show, Tony Bolton clicked off a 63.817 in the Air Ride Buick. So you could say that a big ol' airbag equipped A-body beat all of the Camaros. And I knw that a lot of you don't want to hear this, but the airbag cars ran hard, hooked up and ran with the metal spring cars. " END QUOTE.

The first words are "After the show". The track was shutting us down when Tony hopped into the Buick for the hell of it and ran the 63-eight. The official race was over. It was an impromptu post-race lap. I can confidently state that if the event had not ended, all of the top cars could have clicked off 63 second laps. The lesson learned was not that the Air Ride Buick was fastest--it was that all cars ran surprisingly similar times.

Bret's Buick had a lotta beans under the hood, but I still think my car can beat it. Hopefully, we'll find out this year.

I think the ride quality is the key point. The fact that the QL improves the car as much as it does without requiring big changes to the car is an impressive engineering feat. Why are leaf srings not used on any car built for the last 20+ years? Even the new full size SUVs from GM have coilovers and 4 link in back.

While I have yet to do the grinding and finish work on my install, so far I have only a day in it, and I work alone in my garage with limited tools.

For a self install that turns out looking like a factory setup, there is no better deal than the QL.

Personally I think folks that figure they are going to tear up on a road course in a 40y/o car are missing alot. A used C5 Z06 will cost less and perform much better in bone stock form than any modified 1st gen Camaro and is a better car than 99% of us, myself included, know how to drive.

Now we're getting somewhere. With regards to pro-touring (as opposed to racing), more emphasis should be placed on ride quality than ultimate 10/10ths grip. And pretty much all of the options will ride significantly better than leaf springs.