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I don’t know what you’ve done to this thread but it’s become unreadable for me - the text is so tiny I can’t begin to see it....
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I didn't change anything but for some reason the pics are showing up huge now when viewed on my PC which may be making the text font smaller for you. Thanks for coming by and helping out today Greg. It helps to have reassurance from someone that has been there, done that to know that I'm at least on the right track with this project. You look great BTW. :D |
So, everything up top fits...
https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._160657-XL.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._160705-XL.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._160715-XL.jpg All the changes and new parts ended up playing pretty nice together. Next up, wiring... I'm looking for a spark plug recommendation. Specs for the engine call for a AC Delco MR43LTS which I've used before but they are a pain around my headers. Recently I ran a NGK R5724-8 which was nice because it's shorter and easier to get around headers...but it is not available in resistor which I now need. Because one is a "marine" plug and the other is a "race" plug, I seem to be running into dead ends trying to find a shorty resistor plug. Heads are GM Fastburns. Any suggestions? |
Looks great! Are you going to make Inde this weekend?
Pappy |
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Last Sat was 3 weeks from the start so I missed that deadline...Lord willing and the creeks don't rise I should be close to ready to fire by the end of week 4.
Engine itself is pretty buttoned up, spacer mod worked great, headers and mid pipes are back on with new graphite gaskets that fit great, V Band clamps and O2 bung worked out great as well. We'll see if there are any leaks once it makes heat... Up top got all of the vacuum lines arranged and hooked back up. I have a bit of an issue with the AC line and the new raised radiator hose that I didn't plan on, it'll be fine for now but this may be the straw that humps me into finally getting my 34 year old lines replaced properly... New starter wire, new alt charge wire and new engine to battery ground wire are in place on engine side and all ECU harness leads are at the battery area. Next up is wiring up a relay center and making all electrical connections to relay center and battery posts. Also need to run a power wire to the coil and tach signal wire to the gauge module. Then once that is all done, making some fuel lines and installing the tank...then we test everything and make heat... https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._105130-XL.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._161552-XL.jpg Gave these a new coat of Eastwood's high temp ceramic coating since they were out. last coat lasted over 3 years and still looked pretty good. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._102952-XL.jpg O2 port put the top of the sensor a little closer to floor than I would have preferred but it'll be okay. Someday I'll redo the whole exhaust properly and fix it then. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._130358-XL.jpg That's it for now...y'all are up top date... :D |
Looks good, Lance!
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Got my relay box bracket fabbed and mounted along with my positive and negative distribution lugs.
https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._123148-XL.jpg It's behind the headlight in front of the core support right ahead of the battery. Pretty protected yet should be pretty easy to access as well if needed. Pinned the wires to the fan relays to get my feet wet, went pretty well I think. Now onto the fun stuff... https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._130923-XL.jpg Hope this works... **fingers crossed** https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._130934-XL.jpg |
Good idea to draw out a wiring diagram on all your new modifications. Will make any further diagnostic or maintenance exercises much easier. Put it in Barney's logbook will all the other info. When will this be running again?
How did you prep the headers before coating them again? Mine have been blasted, but for the amount of use they will get in the near future, I can't see spending the money on JetHot or a similar type of coating when I have million other things the car still needs. |
Coming along nicely Lance!!!
Adrienne and I just got home an hour ago from our 6 day road trip.... and I have a PET scan for the cancer crap tomorrow — I’d love to be there for the start up and initial drive if you want me to be..... |
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Thanks Greg!! I'm probably another week out at least before it makes heat. Still waiting on a few electrical parts to come in and still have to make fuel line and install tank. That can be arranged though, I'd love to have you over when it happens. |
I'm pretty stoked with how this turned out, so glad I took this route. Basically we took a new OEM carb (non-baffled) tank and adapted it with parts from Vaporworx to hold a Gen 5 fuel module internally regulated to 58 psi with two corner pickups. The regulator lets us run a returnless system and since I have a non-vented gas cap we retained the stock pickup for a vent to the charcoal canister and the fuel level sender. My friend Mike Hitt had the pan cut and bent up at a local machine shop and then welded the pickup tabs and flange pan into the tank for me.
https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._122440-XL.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._133458-XL.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._133517-XL.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._122522-XL.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._122534-XL.jpg Here are a list of most of the parts used along with pics and links. SPECTRA PREMIUM GM306A Carb Tank https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=17455&jsn=4 ACDELCO MU1959 Gen 5 Camaro Fuel Module https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...=2291898&jsn=1 Fuel Pump Module Mounting Ring – 304 Stainless. https://www.vaporworx.com/product/gm5ss/ https://www.vaporworx.com/wp-content...6/01/GM5SS.jpg Corner Pickup Kit https://www.vaporworx.com/product/cptkit/ https://www.vaporworx.com/wp-content...51-600x450.jpg Fuel Pressure Regulator https://www.vaporworx.com/product/g5fpr/ https://www.vaporworx.com/wp-content...6/01/G5FPR.jpg Fuel Module Outlet Fitting 3/8″ to AN6 Male https://www.vaporworx.com/product/fpofgmqcan6/ https://www.vaporworx.com/wp-content...ck-600x511.jpg This should give Barney a Fifth Gen Camaro fuel delivery system with OEM reliability and no fuel starve issues. One more piece of the puzzle is in place, getting pretty close to finishing this project up. |
So I spent some time in the shop as well today, finally finished up all the wiring. I'm not fast at it, nor the most neat and tidy at it, but I'm pretty sure the connections are all good and it all should work as designed when I llight it off. **Fingers Crossed** I'm pretty happy with how the relay\fuse box worked out and where everything landed.
Here are the all new battery connections. The power to the ECU and engine harness are on the side post mounts, everything else is now powered and grounded through the top posts. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._165854-XL.jpg I ran new 2 ga wire to the starter and 6 ga wire to the Alt and engine ground. It's what I had laying around and I needed to extend them anyway to move them to the top posts. Also ran 10 ga from there to the positive and negative distribution blocks on front side of core support and to the body bolt on the fender. Looking down behind the headlight in front of core support, you can see the relay\fuse box and the Positive distribution block on the radiator duct. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._165912-XL.jpg Better look at the ground block. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._165922-XL.jpg I struggled with making the leads short enough to be tidy but leaving them long enough to pull the box up out of the hole should I ever need to service anything on it. As it ended up I can just get it up on top of the cowl without having to unhook any wires. Once I'm sure everything works I'll tie some looms up to make sure they stay put. View up at the bottom of the box... https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._152954-XL.jpg This was taken before I had the box bolted down and the main leads finished. I still have to do a bit of work under the dash, the wire from coil needs to be hooked to gauge module for the tach and the wires to fan switch are going to get shortened and cleaned up. Other than that though, I'm DONE with wires... Just need to make up four fuel line connections, run the fuel line and filter...and put the tank back in and I'll be ready to fire it off for the first time. Unfortunately an impromptu trip out of town early next week will delay this until after we return. Glad I got time to get the wiring down before we left though. |
Looks great Lance!
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That tank turned out awesome. Nice work man.
Keep at it, be back on track in no time. Quick Question for you. That positive bulkhead on the firewall, will there be a cover over that at all or is it exposed like that all of the time? Sean |
Nice job Lance, it looks good!
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Yeah, I'll figure out some way to cap the positive block off. Wish I would have found this one first now... https://www.amazon.com/Pair-Terminal...EWYP3ZNM4K2K3B |
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Lance, which wire loom product are you using on the wires? Looks like a good clean install. Light it up! :popcorn2: |
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Techflex 3/8" Split F6 Braided... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MRLJ93K...p_mob_ap_share It's pretty nice to work with, expandable and tough.Way better than the old plastic loom stuff... |
I'm not going to sugar coat it...had a couple of pretty frustrating days in the shop.
I finished up putting the hose ends on the lines Friday and actually got pretty good at it by the end. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont...3/58951-X3.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont...3/58945-X3.jpg This "third hand" I picked up really helped with the process https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont...3/58949-X3.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._153855-XL.jpg Wish putting the tank in went as smooth. My guess is the new replacement tank is a smidge larger than the OEM tank and I struggled getting the old straps around the tank and installed. What should have taken about 15 minutes took a couple hours. Then I had to run the fuel line and my desire to make it as fit and finish as OEM led to more frustration. Between being larger diameter and stiff...I had a fight on my hands, but I got it done. I quit for the day and decided to wait until I was fresh Sunday morning to fire up the pump and test for leaks. Good thing I did... Had the wife in the car to turn the key while I had the throttle body end of the line pointed toward a container so I could rinse the lines out before connecting to the throttle body. I had blown the lines and filter out but didn't want any trash from the pump getting into the injectors. She turned the key...nothing... Sent her on her way and I started to chase down why. I'll save you from the horrid details but just know it wasn't until the fuel pump was back out on the bench (yes I had to drop the tank again to get it out), had jumper cables on the pins and a battery charger set at 20 amps powering them...that it finally decided to come to life. I then slowly reinstalled everything while testing the pump operation each step of the way. Once pump was back in the tank and tank raised up to installed location and all connections made, I hot wired the pump at the relay and I had fuel coming out the throttle body end of the line...and out from under the car... Seems I should have put a wrench on the inline filter housing itself to make sure the end cap of it was snugged down. Once that mess was cleaned up and line connected to throttle body again, I tested it again and NONE of my hose ends leaked... Woo Hoo! I cleaned up, aired the shop out and went in the house for a shower and a rest while the battery charged back up. I just now returned in from the shop where I sat down in the driver seat and configured the handheld with my engine specs and uploaded the file to the ECU. I then did the TPS autoset and verified that all sensors are operational. The final screen said we are now ready to start the engine!!! Well, kinda... I still have to fill cooling system and tighten the belts... THEN we'll be ready to fire it off. I guess if it was easy, everyone would be doing it right? :D |
The day still didn't go exactly as planned...but it made heat!
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This past week has tested me but today it firing on the first turn of the key made up for a lot of it. After working out what I thought were all of the demons Sat and Sun, I got everything ready today and nervously hit the key to see what happens...and NOTHING happened... :bang: Back up in the air... Apparently at some point I knocked the switch wire off the starter tab. Wrestled my hands back in behind the header and got it reattached...then put car back down on ground again. That's pretty much how my whole week went... |
So I've had some time to play with it a bit now. Still not drivable as a lot of things still loose or off car but it starts, idles, timing is pretty close, low and high speed fans kick on and off like they are supposed too and all gauges seem to work properly. I am amazed at how easily it started the very first time and continues to start at the first hit of the key.
I need to get my laptop configured to hook to ECU to change some things to really dial the timing in but I figure it would be better to just spend the day buttoning up the rest of the car. Nothing new, unknown or untested left, just putting old parts back on the car. Pretty happy to be at this stage now, there were times last week I wondered if it really was going to work. |
So our friend and fellow board member Andrew spent about 2 hours today dialed into my laptop hooked to the car from his house and really got the idle tune dialed in perfect. It was fun to watch and learn...and see the results from the changes in real time. I'm not sure if it's the cam, the worked over Fastburn heads, or just the whole complete package...but this combo really seems like a great match for the ECU and throttle body. It seemed pretty simple for Andrew to dial it in initially.
We did kind of struggle to get the idle down (which I always fought with the Q-jet as well). Even with throttle blades completely closed and IAC at 0, it still idled around 800 rpm. We even capped off the 3 vacuum lines I had hooked to TBI to see if there was a leak on one of them with little effect. I finally put a wrench on the 4 bolts holding it to manifold and tightened them 1/8-1/4 turn each and that bumped the IAC up to about 4. Backing the idle timing down to 12 degrees and a few other small changes got it to idle about 760 or so with IAC around 4 and we left it there. I need to get the air cleaner back on to see how that affects it if any. The heater hose valve was in the way of it and it was too freaking hot to mess with today. Speaking of heat, it idled in a 100 degree garage for over an hour and never got over 190 degrees. The low and high speed fans work perfectly exactly how they are programmed in the ECU. No leaks, runs, drips or errors that I can see either. Time to get the wheels back on, gas tank bolted in, fenders back on and tidy up the loose ends so I can test drive it on the street. I think Andrew was disappointed when we were done with idle tune and he asked me if it was ready to drive on the street. :D |
Excellent! Now get that thing on the road and enjoy the fruits of your labor. :)
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"Yes honey, a guy I've never met in person before is linked into my laptop over the internet and is making tuning adjustments on the computer in my car while talking to me over the phone..." Her: "Why is he doing that?" "And why are you letting him do that?" "It's just a guy thing honey..." :D Much like a couple weekends ago when 25 some guys that have BS'd together on the internet for years finally meet face to face...it's like we've all known each other for years and it doesn't seem at all like we've just met for the first time. Let's hope in a couple hours this thing rolls out of the shop under it's own power for the first time in almost 2 months. It's 7 am here and I've already had my morning walk, breakfast, am dressed and in the shop ready to turn wrenches... |
1985 monte carlo
Lance,
Great to hear you are getting things dial in It was also good to finally meet you and talk You crack me up with getting the idle down to 760 My buddy's Pantera and mine have the idle set at 1300 rpm and we spin them to 7500 rpm and still bounce the limiter sometimes Love those 830 Nascar Holleys:) Bob |
Holey Cow! So by noon or so I had the car all back in one piece, that pretty much went as planned. I then drove it up and put some fuel in it and made about a 2 mile circle around on city streets to get back home again. Right away driveability was good. Ever now and then it would stumble a bit but never really misfire or anything like that and I could tell it was getting better all the time. Once back I sent the Global Configuration file with the learn tables in it to Andrew and about 10 minutes later he sent me an adjusted file back. I uploaded...then went for a drive again. This time he wanted me to make a couple WOT blasts from 2000 - 6000 RPM which I did.
Also grabbed a couple video clips with my phone during this run. Keep in mind, ambient temp is about 105 and the Manifold air temp was close to 130... On way back I rolled the windows up and turned the air on. Car's behavior didn't change one bit, still rock solid. Fans kicked on when they were supposed to and coolant temp stayed right where it is supposed too, even idling at a stoplight at 750 RPM with AC on max. THIS is what I wanted and why I did this swap. Once back I sent the file to Andrew again and told him a few things I noticed it doing. 10 minutes later, new tune uploaded and quick jaunt just around the house close by but did get a couple of spirited WOT blasts in and man...did he wake it up!! It's back to as good as it EVER was at WOT with the Q jet (possibly better) and with non-of the side effects. I ran short on time and had to quit but I sent the file to Andrew one more time, he made a few more slight tweaks and sent it back for my next go around. I can't wait to see how it is now. Parked it in the garage raised the hood, went out there after my shower and no fuel smell either...another reason why I did this swap!! Here is how it looks now...not much different really. But trust me...it's WAY different now. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._143213-XL.jpg |
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That being said, with Andrew assisting, is this only to speed up the learning curve? Or should this be a 'Must-Do' step w/the process? I know these systems are advertised as "Self Leaning" but we know that's a main/strong selling point to the DIY guy. While this type & similar set-ups can/do self learn, do they need a tuners ability to get things near/at optimum if you want it sooner rather than later? And maybe Andrew (or someone else that has similar experience) can answer this....If you opt for no tuner & let the units ECU do it's thing, how long before it could/would reach the same tune? |
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So when you put your initial inputs in (size of engine, #@ cylinders, cam specs etc) the software picks a predetermined tune and puts it on ECU for you. This tune gives targeted ignition timing, AFRs, etc for a wide range of parameters and tells the ECU to shoot for this. You then go drive the car and the self learn portion corrects over those parameters and the percentages that the ECU has to use to correct each parameter are saved in the learn tables. Eventually the learn table is full (each scenario has been reached and corrected for) and you can either choose to let the software transfer the learn tables to the tune or a tuner can do that manually. Then if you are happy you can disable the learn function and leave it like it is as a permanent tune or let it continue to learn and populate the learn tables with the corrections that it makes. What tuners do is take the GCF and look at the learn tables and make corrections to the tune based off what they see. It's a much faster and more accurate way to dial the tune into what that particular engine wants and needs. Andrew spent about an hour logged into my laptop, working with the Holley EFI software while my car was idling here in the shop to dial in the idle tune. He could tell just by watching the sensors what the engine wanted and made the changes in real time then watched again. This is the first step, getting the idle tune right...and also the hardest. Once the idle tune was spot on, I drove it around...and sent him the GCF. He fiddled with it and sent it back and I uploaded the changed file and drove it again. Rinse and repeat. Each time it got better and better. It's just a much faster more accurate way to get the tune dialed in than the self learn process. BTW, this is why I went with the terminator and not the Sniper...for easy use of the Holley EFI software to dial the tune in. The software is FAST, it loads right away on my old laptop with zero issues and the GCFs are like 80 kbs big...so they are super quick and easy to save and email. That whole process is super quick. Hope that helps... |
This video will bore some of you, but others may find it of interest. I made a quick jaunt around the block starting with a cold start, some open loop stop n go, then some closed loop, spirited stop n go driving finishing with a look at the Holley EFI gauges on my laptop in the passenger seat.
As you'll see it is driving VERY nicely. The one thing we are still working on a bit is a shudder when lugging between 1500-2000 RPM. It actually got better halfway thru this drive which tells me Andrew will be able to see how the ECU corrected for it and fix it permanently. The rest is spot on I think...we'll see what he says though. Also, this is the first time it ever took that long to start cold...I think I didn't let the fuel pump prime long enough before trying to start. Still WAY better than a pump and cranking the Q Jet took. :D |
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I'm torn between a Holley set-up w/the remote ECU or the EDL Pro-Flo4 as it would work w/heads I have. My gut says the Holley hardware probably has much greater after purchase technical support if one needs tuning help. That goes along way when comparing aftermarket EFI choices. But, if the self-learn/tuning actually works, The ProFlo4 has the advantage in my case because of the pkg cost & I likely wouldn't have found the help you did to speed your process. Thanks for the assessment. looking forward to your dyno testing data & track-time impressions/comparison. Those videos help get a good feel for the initial driving experiences! |
Also..... Is that still just the HT383 crate cam installed?
Sounds like there's more cam than my L31 Vortec equipped truck. |
No, we had a custom cam ground for it the same time we put the Fastburn heads on 3 years ago.
It's still pretty mild though, pulls 21" of vacuum at idle. |
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