Latest addition:

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-N...-NVKKGZ2-L.jpg

I know the first time I need to get upside down in the seat to go under the dash on the drivers side I'm going to forget I have it. :yes:

Also relocated the GPS with a Ram Mount ball mounted under the ashtray.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-F...-FpmR6Dc-L.jpg

Next priority is a gas pedal that is closer (depth and width) to the brake pedal so I can "heal & toe" with the sides of my foot. These Sparco's or similar might work:
http://www.sparcousa.com/sites/defau...orsa_03775.jpg

Eliminating the clutch and brake pedal pads will close depth gap 3/8" or so and it doesn't look like it would be too difficult to make a pedal mount that's a 1/2 to 5/8 taller. Unless someone knows of and aftermarket piece. :unibrow:

Hmmm, glad I'm not using cork gaskets!

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-c...-cvgx5TZ-L.jpg

I have alum roller rockers and some hit. Are those stock type rocker nuts? You should really use Poly Locks

Your INT is looking good. I like my NRG hub Now I don't have to pull the seat to get under the dash..

I use cork gaskets So what are ya trying to say?? LOLOL ;)

Just came in from setting the timing or attempting to set it. Got it up to temp checked idle timing and it was at 15.5*-16* as previously set. Bumped the idle speed up with throttle shaft adjusters, loosened the distributor and retarded to 14* but it want to float about +/-2*, snugged the clamp and it was still floating and idle was still high in relation to carb transfer slots. Loosened and backed the idle down (roughly 1,200 to 1,000) with ignition and it was still floating around, check it at had about 12* and tightened the clamp about 20 ft lbs. Revved the motor a little and it settles in at 4*. Revved it again and got a little backfire and flame through the carb. When I shut the motor off I thought I heard a subtle thump at the rear of the car. I also have noticed that the fuel pressure appears down from 6 psi to 5 while running and it bleeds off pressure quicker than usual after the motor is shut down.http://www.desmonorthwest.com/forums...eadscratch.gif


Stopped while typing this and went back at it and the car was hesitant to start, full pedal and it finally lit and acted fine. Check timing and it was a 4* as before, fuel pressure at 5 psi. Checked distributor hold down and it was tight. When revved the motor is slower than usual to return to idle. Tried again to set timing at 10 - 12* and the slightest rotation of the distributor (1/32") would take the timing from 4* to 12-16* and I couldn't get it to lock down in the 10-12* range it would lock lower at 4* or higher at 14-16*, locked at 4* and shut it off and heard the thump again and it sounded like it could have been the Flowmaster 80 series transverse muffler due to a backfire in the exhaust. Fired it again and it acted fine revved good decent throttle response and returned idle quicker.

-Distributor was loosened enough to turn but not without effort.
-Cap looks good.
-Rotor - contact arm was slightly loose (would move a 32nd with a little pressure), Loctited and snugged down.
-Inductive pickups in distributor are snug, clean, no damage. vacuum lockout is tight, etc.
-Geardrive ?????????
-Distributor gear ????????
-Fuel pressure issue???????

Something isn't right.............but the motor sounds crisp and sync'd at a 1K idle from behind.

I certainly don't trust the symptoms a this point. :(

Any clues appreciated. :thumbsup:

It's too late -- and after reading this a couple times --- I've got to give this one some thought....


The one thing we KNOW has changed is your valve adjustment....


Are you hand rolling the motor to find the base of the cam lobes? There's a procedure for doing this...

Mechanical advance has to be sticking.

Thanks Greg.

I'm not hand rolling, tapping through the stroke with remote switch. When a rocker starts on the down stroke one more tap and adjust the adjacent valve, if the valve goes over the top I catch it on the next cycle. When in doubt I'd double check. All adjustments were documented on a map.

:question:

Thanks Todd, I twisted the rotor to check for travel and smoothness earlier and it felt ok.........
I'll pull the rotor tomorrow and check the springs and advance bushing in more detail. I did just change a spring and bushing. Hope it's that simple. :thumbsup:

sounds like it....or the springs are too light...can you get the idle down to 900?
i'd check to see if you have too much idle circuit in the secondaries. shove a clean rag in the secondary bores to see if the engine stalls.

If you are using the lighter springs on the distributor advance, and your idle is high (over 1,000) then I'd bet your advance is just starting to kick in at idle. This would explain why the timing is inconsistent and changes so much when you just barely move the distributor. If you have one size heavier spring for the distributor advance then try that and see what happens.

This could also explain why the engine is not returning to idle properly.

Just an idea for something to try. :thumbsup:

Distributor has a silver and blue spring currently, it was running fine with that set up but I found out the transfers slots were not exposed so I set them at .025 and had a 2K idle. The symptoms started when I loosened the distributor to retard the initial timing from 16* to a number that would deliver an acceptable idle speed and carb settings.

I can get it below 1K with little or no transfer slot exposure (.025 is spec). Problem was flat power as the clutch engaged.

Thanks Dale I hope it's that simple!

Just read your entire build thread, nice car and the motor package is impressive. Has to be a kick on the track. I'm assuming PIR? Have you been to ORP or The Ridge?

Have you given thought to running a MSD programmable digital 6al-2 box? Extra cost you would have to incur, but it could possibly solve your issues. One of its features is that it locks out your mechanical advance and gives you the ability to program your timing curve through the box. This gives you the ability to fine tune your timing curve you, otherwise, would not be able to.

I haven't with the 60's John Deere technology motor........yet. :D
Hopefully it's a simple issue with the mechanical advance.

Actually, the olds chool SBC would benefit more from such an ignition add-on than a modern motor would. Modern motors with their coil/cylinder and plethora of tuning through the computer wouldn't have much use for such. I have one ready to go on my motor

Scott, I've really enjoyed your build thread, but the invaluable part is all of the ignition timing troubleshooting help from all of the guys chiming in. It's really helping me on understanding my own car's issues!!! :thumbsup:

Thanks. It's kind of a cluster but covers the experience. :D

The knowledge and experience on this forum is second to none and priceless IMO. Even for those of us hiding in the closet working on old school budget stuff. :thumbsup:

:lateral:

You just described my build, carbed, Gen II small block with leaf springs and 17" wheels with a sprinkling of nice quality parts. I avoided siding with the "hiding in the closet" crowd!! LOL :rofl:

:thumbsup:

One upside is my car just "comfortably" appraised at 10x's it's original sticker price which means I'm honestly in the green on the project though I doubt it will ever be for sale. :)

When chasing an issue --- you want to only change ONE THING at a time --- see the result and then move on or move back. That's just my old skool de-bugging.

So we really have three things going on now...

Carb transfer slot adjustment.


The problem with adjusting carbs with seat of the pants tests is that you don't have a baseline set of numbers to work from. Jet size etc. We don't know if the thing is pig fat - or going lean with clutch engagement. Carbs are simple but they're also tricky. There's actually a lot going on there and most people don't really have the experience to do much other than mess up the idle adjustment...



Valve adjustment


I'm sorry - and don't want to embarrass you while trying to find your issue. But the adjustment sequence you gave isn't right. I hope you were just typing a short response. The backfire - and the exhaust "sound" you've described is wanting to tell me that your valves aren't closing. This could be a timing issue as well -- but this all started after you adjusted the valves... so I'm just trying to find "something" -- and the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result. :willy: :lol:






Timing adjustment



I have had more than just a couple SBC motors.... :unibrow: and this spring combo won't make your timing jump from 4* to 14/16* by moving the distributor a half a blonde one. Something else is going on here. I don't know what it is - but it's not the spring combo. Todd mentioned sticking advance and that's possible. Or the stop bushing isn't engaged correctly. I'd pull the distributor and actually look at that. With it out - you can work the advance and see if it's free and comes back properly etc.

I've got two dogs hounding me to take them for a 2 mile walk in 27* temps right now.............Rev I can handle, Tucker is getting a little forceful. :_paranoid

Reply to follow........don't worry about embarrassing me, if I was worried I wouldn't post where the lions feed. :D :thumbsup:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/real3/dane.jpg

Keeping with the one thing at a time theme......:D
When positioning one valve just shy of the top of the lobe it was my understanding that would insure the adjacent valve would be on the base circle of the lobe?

When I backed off the nut I noted the amount of turn it took to obtain zero lash to verify previous adjustment. (The previous run checked out to very close to 1/2 a turn of preload as intended) Then I backed it out a little farther wiggled the rocker and pushrod to "center" and took it down to one definition of zero lash which is firm resistance on the rotation of the pushrod. That may be a max of 1/16 of a turn more than the up and down method? From that point I gave the lifter 5/8 of a turn preload.

At 1,200-1,400 rpm the exhaust note of the motor doesn't indicate a valve not closing or a weak cylinder. It sounded as good as it ever has. I would assume a valve not fully closing would be noticeable by exhaust note and cylinder balance?

I've thought about that but the cart would need 6 piston caliper brakes and more tire to stop him, especially if there's a lady in heat around. :D

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-m...-mr5Gw2M-M.jpg



Brisk beautiful 27* morning.......
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-q...-qnqdG9J-L.jpg

Thanks Sieg... Good luck solving the issue with the tune. like Greg said just make on change at a time and you'll eventually get it.

So far I have only run the car at PIR. I'll look into those other tracks you mentioned, I'd love to try something else.... thanks :thumbsup:

Here is another way to adj valves (this is the way I was taught)

Yes, this is a Mech cam but we've used this method on hyd cams too

Hey Sieg, where does REV think he's going? LOL at brakes on cart and you sure do live in a beautiful area :thumbsup:

If I didn't tell him to stop China may have been his plan unless he found the mouse first. He goes after raccoon's, squirrels and mice with passion. Tucker just enjoys the outdoors and hopes a good looking chick will come along. :D

We're very fortunate to live where we do. :thumbsup:

So without actually seeing you adjust valves --- I think that is part of the problem -- I'd START with a fresh valve adjustment using the techniques in the video.

This is CRITICAL regardless of hydraulic of solid.... and done wrong -- you'll have valves not seating fully - or valves open when they shouldn't be etc.

The backfires and gas burning in the muffler kinda leads me to think there's a bit of an issue there... Carbs don't backfire... so that is either timing --- or valve adjustment.

You're not going to know about the valves unless you just do it over with the info you've been given. Personally I use a felt tip pen and mark "I" or "E" on the head gasket surface so when I'm rolling 'em around -- I know which valve I'm working on.

Then when I was done with that --- I'd leave it so that I can watch the valve on number 1 both closed --- watching the ROTOR on the distributor -- and roll it till the timing mark is at TDC.... ALL THOSE THINGS SHOULD MATCH UP -- ROTOR on #1 -- valves on #1 closed after the INTAKE opens and comes closed -- and the timing balancer and pointer on TDC.

At that point -- I'd make a felt pen mark on the dist where the rotor is EXACTLY -- and another where the rotor ends up after she clears the cam gear (gives you a good starting point for the re-stab) -- I'd pull the distributor --- work the advance making sure she's free and snappy -- and check that the stop bushing is where it should be and there's no interference with it.... Stab it back in... after checking that the rotor is where it should be (there should be a square peg on one side)... that it seats properly -- and that the CAP looks good etc.

I'd fire it at this point and see if anything has improved -- set your timing ....

THEN I'd mess with the carb.... but not until I KNEW FOR SURE the valves and the timing are good. Carbs are DUMB -- they don't control much except the idle. :cheers:

I hadn't watch the Comp Cams video until after I posted -- that is ALSO the way I do my valve adjustments.

I mark the valve locations as I described above -- because that takes one thing off my mind while I'm watching the valves. I don't like to have to think much....

Distributor is out and back in, just about ready to fire it.

Advance felt ok but a little loose so I installed the two blue springs and blue bushing since I'm going for a little less initial. Don't think the black bushing could have been too tight but I didn't over torque on the re-install and act's smooth through the range.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-S...-SDhG3pg-M.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Z...-Zg6zdcf-L.jpg

Distributor didn't change symptoms.

Ran the valves according to Comp's EOIC method but used 3/4 turn pre-load vs 1 turn. #8 exhaust was loose at 1/4-1/3 turn of pre-load from zero lash, the others were pretty close......though I'm getting doubtful of my competence at this point. :(

Once the radiator shroud and fan are back on we'll fire it and see what happens.

I wish you luck. Hang in there buddy!

In this pic -- the distributor is 180* "out"....


Don't know when you took the picture etc --- but just saying....

The high idle can also be chased to a vacuum leak.... Have you checked for that? All the ports on the carb plugged -- PCV working correctly? Intake sealed?

Okay -- and I see another possible issue.... ASSUMING you're running an MSD box... since I see you've put on a GM weatherpak connector on the distributor.



The Black/Violet wire is negative (-) while the Black/Orange is postive (+). The wires that come out of the MSD are Violet(+) and Green (-). The 2-Pin connectors are designed to only connect one way so the wiring cannot be switched. If for some reason the connectors are changed, be sure the wires are connected with matching polarity. If they are not, the engine may or may not start, but if it does the timing will be inconsistent and it will run rough and not accelerate.

I know I'm digging at the little things -- but at this point nothing can be taken for granted.



:thumbsup:

Man, you are really trying for 10,000 posts aren't you!

Hey -- the Hawks lost -- I've got little else to do now for a few weeks!! :lol:

Taken after I ran the valves. Check

Had the carb off, could be a base plate leak. No ports on the HP Ultra, PCV is new, intake freshly installed Edelbrock gaskets. Will double check all points. The idle does hang, could that cause the timing fluctuation?

No box, that's the MSD dist. wire connector.

After just firing it and having the same symptoms me too!! :yes:
Vacuum leak makes sense. Electrical short in tach, ignition wiring?

I guess the plus is it's not the valve train..........I think. :_paranoid

Let him win, if he starts loosing and leaves this place wouldn't be nearly as much fun. :woot:

Hawk's? Are they similar to a Sea Buzzard?

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I'm almost frustrated...............almost. Proof is in the fact that I haven't thrown anything across the shop yet. :rofl: