Oh -- there's two choices here... he can try to stand toe to toe with me.... he wouldn't be the first or the last... or he can just do what he should as a good businessman and make the little POS right and get his paycheck. Some guys just have a hard time understanding that making the right choice is paramount. At this point it can go either way. While I hope he chooses to just get busy and fix the couple things that aren't right - and get some billable hours for the couple other things I asked for them to do... I expect the worst and that I'll have to turn it over to my attorneys and just let them write letters back and forth with his attorneys - the deal is there - I don't really care what that all costs and I'm thinking he probably does. It's a no win for them either way. They've lost a customer - they've lost any referrals - I'll be telling this story to every Tom Dick and Harry at every show for as long as I own the car... He can turn that around or he can run the ship aground. I can only react at this point. Every action gets a reaction -- fix it - get paid - or play a game of chicken which just raises the stakes. Play that game and the stakes can get real high real fast. He'll just have to ask himself what is the easier road - fix it and get er done and gone - or be a 'big shot' and let his ego get in the way of running a business.

Thanks Greg, I really appreciate it. Just let me know when.

I hear what you're saying but the conundrum I see here is that you have quite clearly shown that they are incompetent and very possibly INCAPABLE of fixing the POS to your standards... from a mechanical standpoint.

I'd pull it and send it somewhere who has proven they can handle the mechanical issues you keep uncovering.

Greg, that had to be one long ride back to Portland. I know how my mind works when I'm fuming over being ripped off no matter the dollar amount and let me tell you it's not good! At times, what's going through my mind and what I print are two different tales only because I'm trying to be an honorable citizen in our great country. Stealing is stealing, doesn't matter how one tries to twist a story to justify their means. Best of luck to you, hopefully they choose the honorable path and it is quickly resolved.

Perhaps it is none of our business, but since you've been airing everything else out, it got me wondering. Of the 19k that you've held payment on, how much of that amounts to blatantly defective work, like improperly installed parts? SAR is a small shop now, and that amount of money, or lack thereof, can interrupt cash flow, so I can definitely understand why he would ask for 16k (even though that seems bold considering your track record with billing - it isn't like he would have to worry about getting the money). Threatening you for it though, clearly wasn't a good business decision.

I'm with Dave. If it were me, I'd just pay what was fair and walk away. Maybe you're not as big of an A-hole as you give yourself credit for being. Not many of us would stick around to see if things could be made right on the third attempt. Then again most of us wouldn't fight it out until the end with lawyers. So, maybe you're just more stubborn than the rest of us.

If you're dealing with a similar ego to the Riddler winning one that I've dealt with, then if things get ugly I will be living vicariously through you. :rofl: I hope it never gets to that point though.

Matt

Funny it sounds like he needs money bad, yet it was not to long ago he was bragging about getting many brown paper bags full of money.

Greg it has been very entertaining. I bet when you started this thread you never imagined it going this far.

That statement is the truth! :thumbsup:

When we meet, please introduce yourself as bungholio. I will try to duplicate the exact laugh I just had at your expense. :rofl:

That car is like a red headed stepchild. You should hang a picture of it in the "shed", point to it and say "oh... and that ones mine too".

Coming from the other side of the coin (one of the "guys" who has been trudging away), that's not always true. The problem is the relationship between owner and builder is a special one and it's probably second only to finding the right husband and wife combo in level difficulty. When you get it right it's (relative) bliss, when it's not it's a living hell for both...

From the (financially) broken builder's point of view, there is nothing better than having a compatible customer who's willing to (financially and mentally) go where you are. It's freedom, because you can pour your heart and soul into the vehicle, and then move on to the next one. For some of us, the "experience" is in the build, not in the "ride". The magic is gone soon after the vehicle is "finished" so having someone waiting in line to do it all over is golden. My problem is my customers were almost as broke as I was. :lol:

Greg just got in bed with the wrong one, but I love how he's playing the game. If I was (the builder) on the other side of the table from him, I would just hire someone to come in and help get the car running right, and move on... He's right, you just have to stick a pin in your ego, at that point, and get the issue resolved. I've been there. It hurts a little, but not nearly as much as trying to dig in and fight it out.

Mattman....


Just to show I have my balz in the right place - I wire transferred $15K to the shop this morning.... so he'll have that in his account TODAY. As is the case in most of these sordid stories - there are things that have not been told. I'm holding some very important info back. I'm only letting you peak behind the curtain.

I've always trusted the shop to do the work - to make it right - etc. There was never any question in my mind about that. These are good hard working very talented, honorable folks. I do - however - question the ability to get it right on CERTAIN portions of the build. And with a build of this quality - I do not "expect" to have to have recurring issues. It should be a "fix" - move on - oh another issue - fix it and move on. What I don't like is the "attitude". But then again - I'm only a good paying customer.... and apparently there's lots of us around. :rofl:

My mistake was not dropping the car off in So San Fran at Brizios on my way home from Santa Barbara... they told me it would be 3 weeks before they could even start to look at the car... they're SWAMPED with builds.... I wanted the car DONE for Pleasanton - so after discussing this with both shops via cell phone (a no no while driving and pulling a trailer I know!) I chose to take it to the builder and give them the chance to make it right. And they did make many of the items right and I'm happy with those results. But even in that discussion --- when I asked that the car be repaired and available for Pleasanton (there was plenty of time) I was told "it'll be done when it's done". The PROPER response would have been and should have been -- We'll be on it immediately and will do everything we can to get 'er done. Can't promise that because we might need parts etc that can hold us up but we'll do everything we can. DOH!

So my balz are in the right court - I sleep well at night. :woot:

I think that this has become an issue for many shops - actually many businesses period - that had so much business they turned people away. Now however - the shizel has hit the fan - and it will separate the wheat from the chafe.

Brizios shop is so busy he couldn't even take the car in for 3 weeks! SAR will take your car in 3 nanoseconds.

MISTER Bungholio to you!


So --- this is turning into a BLOG (per Rodger at Ironworks).... and he's right.
But I have to laugh at your stepchild remark and add this info.

I bought a SAR 34 neon sign.... I thought it would be cool to hang in the shop and it's even numbered and autographed...

I have not even opened the box (it's LARGE). It's just sitting in a corner - because I'm seriously considering (no joke here) taking it to SEMA if there's shooting range close to town there - and letting my buddies take pot shots at it - making a video of that (and the hysterical laughter and comments it would no doubt have) and posting it on YouTube. What a f'n hoot that would be!

Well said Todd.... just get the damn thing done - go over EVERY nut and bolt - kiss my arse with a decent apology and make sure when it goes out the door the SOB is as near perfect as it can get.

If money is an issue -- dude! Just say so and I'm the first one that will reach a hand down and help out. I've been doing that all along... no questions... never played that card by throwing it in their face. I will now because after bending over backwards - I've also been bent over forward and I don't like the feeling of both hands on my hips! :woot: :wow: :rofl:

XOXO right back!

It is fun - isn't it!?:D

I think SAR knows you can out lawyer them and I would imagine that is the last thing a shop struggling w cashflow wants to do. Not that I think it will come to it, because you sent them a chunk of change. But you also have one other card here SAR should be concerned about. 51k views on your build thread. Once it's on the internet it's there forever. Imagine if you started a thread on some of the other forums that specialize in your car? -- one example

http://www.automotiveforums.com has 679k members!

I'd imagine that would put a dent in SARs business ultimately...

very interesting and entertaining thread(not entertaining for you though), but my father in-law is going through what seems to me a parallel story to yours with a 67 chevy II. Has a ton of money in it(ls-9,6l90 full tci chasis, paul atkins interior). lots of things that you would take for granted that should work but don't work properly if you want to drive it and beat the *&^ out of it. builder is not receptive to fixing issues. You are handling this very well it seems and could be a lesson for others on diplomacy.

Ron -- I'm not out to damage anyone.... I gave this a lot of thought before I even posted it up here. I only decided to because of the lessons that others may gain from it etc. And frankly - because it's all part of the PROJECT which is the thread on this car. Let's ride it to the end. It could have had a far far better ending. It's not the end yet - and I'm giving them every chance possible to step up their game and do what they know is right. I trust they will and this is nothing more than a spat. It's like running over a possum = it's messy but it ain't the end of all humanity. If you knew me personally - you'd know that I'm actually having a little fun with it all. I know I'm weird that way.... right now I'm like a scorned woman. I go all honey until you mess with me -- and then it's scorched earth! The car is like a beauty queen with a stinky you know what. Maybe I can teach her to clean up, and we'll live happily ever after....

Greg this kills me never mind what its doing to you. Its not even swallowing his pride its just admitting certain people specialize in certain parts of a build process. If he was having problems with mechanicals he should have brought someone known for being able to fix the problem before it got to you. If it cropped up after you got it he should have done like you said get it in and done right. I know how disappointing this stuff can be. I hope he steps up and does whats right, and doesn't think taking the hard nose route will gain him anything.

You're having fun w a stinky you-know-what? Mad props Greg....you are a little wierd...:rofl: :rofl:

P.S-> The part I did not quote above...I think you're handling it in a well thought out manner. :thumbsup:

Sorry to hear this.

Actually -- I think this happens A LOT... people just don't talk about it. It's like nobody talks about how much these cars cost to build either... I think most of us are actually kind of embarrassed that we could spend so much and get so little. :lol: I'm not the "embarrassing" type... I'm quite the opposite -- I try to share my experiences -- good or bad - even at my own expense. Despite being only 3 foot 4 -- I really don't have the little man syndrome - I'm about as up front as a guy can get. I'm the consummate customer everyone would love to have. I want the very very best you can do and ask you what you can do better than that. I EXPECT to pay for that quality. In fact - my discussions on remodeling a house - or doing work for me NEVER EVER centers on the cost. I even remind people "I'm not discussing the cost - don't build my stuff with your wallet... I want you to tell me your very best ideas. Tell me what would be really really cool.... I'll decide if I want it done or not and that decision will not be cost based it'll just be whether or not I think it's cool".

My last house - built in 1923 - was going to be a one month - paint and a little carpet and move in (my friends rib me about this statement to this day!). It ended over a year later with an all walls and ceilings off, complete rewire - replumb - floor structures and wall structures rebuilt cost no object new everything "remodel" (I should have torn it down and built new - it would have been cheaper). I never once asked what any of it was going to cost. Didn't care. Lucky me. I had a great time - enjoyed every minute of it - and it turned out KILLER... Just the way the house I THOUGHT I'd bought should have been. I'd do it all over again in a heartbeat. In fact - the house is for sale for little more than I sold it for... and for a couple minutes we thought about buying it back. But then I wouldn't have my beloved shed... and it's the ONLY reason we moved in the first place. Well... that and the shared driveway down to the lake was shared with a coke head multi gazillionaire 2 in the morning electric guitar playing Ferrari driving nutcase! I got tired of the cops coming 3 days a week. :faint: Reminds me of something I did one day after one of his super parties - cops and all - I put my speakers on the deck toward his house - and fired up my stereo about 9 AM.... and left the house. He liked Jimi Hendricks - I put on my kids Barney CD and had the player set to repeat. "I love you - you love me.... we're a happy family".

He was foaming at the mouth.... I laughed so hard I peed my pants. He never did it again. Saw him the other day at the grocery store - we actually laughed over our "spats". HE is clean and sober these days (this time around).

Greg,
I just got up to speed on the thread. I hope this has a happy ending for you. (as in driving the car, not the Hwy 99 kind ;) )
I like the 9am Barney tunes blasting the nieghbor.

Eric --


I still chuckle to myself every time I think about that event. When I left the house - I was laughing so hard I couldn't hardly get the door locked...

my popcorn is empty?????

BRB

Greg,

Thanks for a great read. Yada Yada blah blah all the bad crap. But I love the way you turn this into a positive " lets play ball, dont worry I brought my own glove ( s ) "

Now can I please go back to the picture in my head of you lounging in a red smoking jacket!! :rofl:

Matt

Matt --

I've posted more than once that it "ain't my first goat rodeo".... Stuff like this actually gives me something to do during the day. :rofl: True enough!

If you ever meet me - you'll be shocked. I'm a total blue jeans and car t shirt guy. Getting dressed up means putting on a clean pair of jeans and a clean non torn or burnt t shirt. I even keep a pair of "newish" tennis shoes around for those occasional brushes with dignity.

True Story: When we all ran into Greg at Del Mar we first thought he was just one of those random car t-shirt wearing show attendees that had consumed a gallon of beer by 11am and was just yelling at us randomly... turns out he was sober and we actually knew him.

Again, hope everything turns as best as possible at this point. We all know you're more than capable of taking care of yourself.

Matt

p.s. since everyone is eating this drama up, having you considered approaching the Speed Channel about making a tv show entitled "The Real House-Husbands of Washington State?"

greg is the tallest short guy i know. very stand up guy. I don't think I have ever seen you in anything but a tshirt and I bet you would give it someone if they truly needed it.

Okay -- So Chuck - the foreman at SAR just called me to discuss the issues. He's very calm - is a car guy - and get's it. While I've yelled at him in the past - not in a personal way but as a po'd customer... he - like I - seem to be able to separate issues from personal BS. Just setting this up here...

I can't describe the "noises" this car makes but they're not natural or normal sounding to me... so we have a very good discussion about what I can hear and why - and what I did etc in order for him to be absolutely certain that when they button it all back together - that they / we - haven't missed something.

KUDOS TO HIM! Now this is the way this is supposed to go!

I think what I heard/hear - is a throw out bearing squeal... I put the clutch IN and the noise goes away (while still going forward - any speed - doesn't matter).... This car is NOISY no matter what - it's a friggin' roadster - the wind is beating your ears - the exhaust ain't far from the back of your head -- the quick change gears are STRAIGHT CUT.... These TKO trannys are noisy (I think).... tough to pull out of all that - where this is squeal is coming from. I've tried to describe and diagnose the best I can (I'm "fairly" knowledgable...) BUT -- I've never had a TKO 600 -- and I've never owned a quick change rear end... MAYBE the noises are the gears.

Solution -- put HELICAL cut gears in -- Simple -- no biggie on the cost - I said if they need to be fed ex do it! I have no problem with that.

Ditto - if you have the hydraulic bearing in your hand - put in a new one - double and triple check that the install settings are what they are supposed to be -- DUDE! That's the best job a guy can do - that's all I ask.

The other couple of little things are items I've asked them to do.

My point is -- this is how it should go... forget the money thing... that's just my way of adding "leverage" -- and their only way of gaining any traction is to hold the car hostage. While this works with the average customer - it don't work with me - I've already posted that I took a giant step forward and did my part -- AND they've risen to that and are obviously working hard to find a solution to my complaints.

The gear grease puking is also being worked on -- they are going to add a vented can (my best description since I'm not down there) to get this under control. They've been in discussion with Kugel on it and seem to have a resolution.

I said to Chuck -- I'm a big boy -- if it's the rear end -- and it bothers me - I'll pull it out of there and put in something different -- NO BIGGIE... I have absolutely ZERO issue doing that if that's what it takes. I hope I don't have to do that because I L O V E the looks of this whirly jig... and it's the old skool look I am after.

The stupid StarDrive is an easy fix... and the only thing I asked for is a keyed ignition that FEELS quality. The temporary one that was in there was a notchy POS... So he's looking around to try to get something better. I trust him to make this judgement. So let's me just share the StarDrive issue. Because it's patently unfair of me to berate it... it's up under the dash - so I can't SEE what mode it's in. In order to start the car - its SAYS that you just have to have the key fob with you == depress the brake == and start the car. Good luck with that.... if you don't depress the brake enough - it goes into some other mode -- then you don't know where it's at.... you start over - it does nothing... You then LOCK the car using the key fob - and start over - this might work and it might not. SOOOOOOOOOOO I don't know if it's the OPERATOR or the "system" with the EFI and it's computer - and the StarDrive - and or the switch in the brake blah blah blah.... All I know is -- the "koolness" ain't worth the hassle factor for me. I want to push a button or hit the key or whatever and I want the SOB to roar to life. Period. There are NO accessories in the car - no need for accessory mode... no radio - no A/C - no windows - no top - no nuttin' honey. START - OFF. Done. :rofl: Regardless - it's O U T. I hope Jocko has a higher opinion of it.

NOW FOR THE BUSTED REAR END.....


Some shafts (like axles but smaller) -- both sides are twisted and broken -- these are out at the hubs...I have the EXTREME HORSEPOWER "HUBS" or whatever they call them. KUGEL says they've NEVER had these break. WTF -- they're CORVETTE C4 stuff - ditto the half shafts... this car is LIGHT -- and ain't no HP monster... They nor I = nor Chuck - has any idea why this has happened. Again - no biggie - just fix 'er up -- and if it happens again -- I rip the REAR out and put something else in. I did not, nor will I, ask anyone to pay for these repairs... nobody knows what's wrong or why and say it should never happen -- good enough for me.... We'll see if the repairs work - and I have a solution if it doesn't. :unibrow:

SO FAR, SO GOOD... Resolutions and solutions... that's all a guy can ask for.

There could of been some type of binding that allowed to twist on itself and the pop you heard was it snaping and causing it to release the tension.
Wouldn't that be a warranty issue with Krugel?

What are your and Steve's opinion of what happen to cause that?

Fourth gear is by far the noisy gear in a tko600. Especially if you are lugging it a little. 5th is not straight cut from my fuzzy recolection. I've never noticed much noise in any other gear.

I think it's safe to say that a problem needs to be found with your kugel rear end. Unless they are that weak, it has to be a set up or a manufacturing problem. Of course, it is chromed. :D What is the hp rating?

His opinion no longer counts. :D

When I say Steve's I mean the shop as a whole. They must have an opinion other than you were laying massive burnouts.

Amen brother! I agree with you here. (I say this as I don't have the knowledge of building my own pro-tour car, and have to have someone build mine for me, although yours was a hot rod Greg.)
I'm not taking sides here, but if I pay for services, I would want those services to be made/done and finalized before I drive the car home or have it delivered home. Again, I am not taking sides, just saying that breakdowns should not be happening one right after another. I know no one build will be perfect, but I expect it to be as close to perfect as possible if I am dishing out the cash.
Good luck Greg.

HP rating is 500+ but like most "ratings" -- WTF does it mean -- what tire size? What weight car? What TORQUE... so the number is just BS and meaningless.

The half shafts and stub axles (what broke on both sides) are C4 Corvette pieces... I weight half what a Corvette weighs... My dyno sheet was 454 TQ at a low rpm (can't think what the number was) and 404 HP all done at 5300 rpm... This is just a simple 383 hot rod motor... nothing at all like my Nomad build. That motor might have spit the chassis in half! EEEEEHHHHHAAAAA

The TKO600 is a FIVE speed.... and the straight cut gears I was referring to are the quick change gears in the rear end (Winters Champs quick change).

The REAR END is fine -- it's the "stub axles" that are busted -- they're the little axles that connect the half shafts to the "hub". I have the "extreme duty" control arms -- but the "hub with stub assembly" is apparently just stock C4 Corvette parts.... No way you should be able to bust that with the light weight roadster - and my tires ain't that big! But apparently it's a weak link - or at least "was" the first go 'round! :rofl:

Chuck has been talking to WINTERS and KUGEL.... nobody can figure it out. ALL say the same thing -- should have never happened. These are RACING rear ends -- and as per the above post - the parts that let go - are C4 Corvette stub axles... may be faulty - not heat treated - or just not up to snuff. Nobody can explain it.

Greg,

We did meet at RTTC II, I flew in from Chi-Town and volunteered at the auto-cross. I bummed a ride from you back to the hangar for lunch.

And yes I was shocked, you were much taller than I expected. :lol:

Matt

AH HA! Right Matt --- I remember!
:cheers:

With a great watch.........;)

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! :_paranoid

Everything is being, or has been, attended to. We are just waiting on LARGER half shafts from Kugel and it should be wrapped up - once again. The stub axles were shipped and installed as well as the carriers -- but I wanted to upgrade the half shafts as long as things were torn apart. Proactive is a better game to play than F.O.R.D. :lol:

Everyone has been working hard to get 'er done and I send kudos to S.A.R. and Kugel for there diligence!

The throw out bearing is a Tilton -- and they've taken everything apart -- re-checked and reinstalled a new bearing although it appears there is nothing wrong with the 'old' one. For all I know - the noises I've heard could be from something else... it's so hard to hear in the car to begin with. I like it that way - but it's hard to pinpoint things like this.

In the meantime I'm happy to be driving my wifes new R8 Spyder.... no weird noises from this bad boy I can assure you of that! So far - so good. Was pretty smart of me to give her the birthday present the night before she was leaving for a long weekend don't ya think?? :rofl: :wow: :rofl: