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Not sure how there is Camaro talk in your Mustang thread (or why Rob would allow such a travesty) but I digress....
Matt, for the ball not bouncing your way the past 2 weeks you did really dang good man. You drove the car there sans trailer, had the restraint and maturity to not show the Farfegnugen car with the trigger happy Blow Off Valve who's boss on the road rally, and did half of your own navigating on said road rally (my bad!). :D Seriously, you represented the real pro touring cars well and without even a fraction of the design points you should have gotten. I mean.... 1 friggin point in the Design portion?! Yeah I'll say it... what a rip off that was. They must have gotten your car and the near stock looking 5th gen mixed up. :rolleyes: I'll cap it off with this... How does a recent SEMA GM Design Award Winner get 1 point? :bang: Thanks for letting me navigate and hitch a ride. Was great being part of that cruise with ya. :thumbsup: |
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Okay, now... since this is my little build thread, I'm going to take it off topic a little bit (maybe I can tie it back to building the Camaro) and rant a little bit. I'm happy to have been given the opportunity to compete in OUSCI and I'm happy to have finished the event. I'm a little let down by my own driving, but hey, that is why we race and don't just look at parts and crunch numbers to find a winner. The one thing I want to rant about though is the the design component. I might lose a few people here, but try and bear with me guys. I'm not writing this because I just want to bitch and complain, but rather because I really enjoyed the event, the level of organization was great. Both Jimi and the autocross team kept the event running fast, and most of all showed responsibility in making judgement calls to keep things safe. The Design portion was the only part of the event that I felt didn't live up to everything else. I highly doubt my opinion on the subject matters, or will be read by anyone involved, but here it goes anyway. Design is subjective. It is an art form in its own right, and every viewer has a different opinion. Just as there are different schools and philosophies in art, from impressionists to cubists, and some of the post modernists whose works I have no idea how to classify, so there are similar subcultures in the car customizing aftermarket from the stanced and hellaflush movements that Rob greatly adores, to the more subtle and refined creations that builders like Trapanier and Strope have been turning, or the Ring Brothers, whose work has its own identity. My point is, there are many sub-genres of art and design in general. As individuals we are naturally going to be opinionated about what we see. Some of the most fun we have at SEMA is probably being able to lean over to one of our buddies at a show while standing next to a mid to high six figure build and saying, "man, why did they do that?" Still, most of us are mature enough to respect builds and builders for their craftsmanship and execution of concept, which is really no different than how art is critiqued. Where I take issue with the design component of the event is how haphazardly it was judged. The judges said they were looking for what differentiated each individual car from the way it left the factory. The design portion was also put in place to help well built street cars compete with their more race oriented rivals. I would be okay with that if the design score cards were indicative of the alleged scoring criteria. Tell me though, how does a mid engined Mustang with impeccable fit and finish not win the design portion under the aforementioned basis for critique? Eckler's can probably list on one hand the number of factory pieces retained on that car. On the other hand how does an Audi R8 with aftermarket wheels, underglow neon lights and a big wing take home third place in the segment? If Pfaff and Lingenfelter were judging based on how well they felt the Audi lived up to its concept, that would be different, but that wasn't the story this past weekend. When they judged my car, they made it clear that they were looking for what made it stand out compared to a factory car. I have original doors, decklid and roof. Everything was built with attention to combining form and function with as little compromise as possible to either, while still remaining understated. I wanted the classic shape of a Camaro with a bit of the vibe of a contemporary grand touring car. I got one point. Steilow's car, which I feel follows a similar concept received 15 design points. Are our two cars really that different? Lastly, let's talk about the Lingenfelter Camaro. It has a vinyl wrap, aftermarket wheels, a different grille, and maybe some body kit pieces. Was it really deserving of more points than my car or even the CTS-V challenge car, if we're going to make a slightly more apples to apples comparison. I'll let you guys decide... I wouldn't have bothered to write this all if I thought I was the only one who felt this way, but when Tim McGilton voiced similar concerns about the design portion in another thread, I figured there are probably a lot of us who feel this way, and maybe our opinions should be put out in the open. In the grand scheme these events are for people to enjoy, so maybe we shouldn't worry about who does or doesn't get design points, but at the same time, if these events are for fun, why are they becoming competitive enough that that two of the three podium spots were decided by style points awarded by judges who designed or owned the two cars in question? |
Well said Matt. I agree 100%.
Its like me telling you red is better than blue. Hopefully the'll tweek that for next year. And your paragraph goes "viral" |
Glad to hear your getting to enjoy the car again Matt.
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It reminds me of the first time I entered my car in a local show. I hung around all day expecting an award and zilch. From that day forward I had a new outlook.
Your car is very well executed. I'd say to the point where the average judge wouldn't appreciate it. I can see it winning the GM award and doing poorly at Optima. It's not loud enough cosmetically...... |
Don't feel bad Matt, my Mustang got 0 design points, you can get much louder cosmetically then it. I think judging is so subjective, they need to mix that up a little bit, can't have the same group liking the same stuff every year. Lord knows my taste is way different then a lot of others.
Don't know if you are having the same SEMA/ Optima hang over that I had, wow that really kicks the crap out of you. Took Several days to recover. |
Matt, pretty much hard to take car judging serious anywhere as it can differ on any given day depending on the individuals selected to do the judging or which car club they belong to at the various shows throughout the country, although it does feel good when you are recognized w/no affiliations to that particular show. On a side note, I've seen your car in person in the past and cannot get enough of it, during this SEMA visit I went back to your car several times and your windows were always rolled up.....you're killing me!:poke: :P
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X2 on the windows being rolled up and dirty as hell too like someone actually DROVE it there or something....the nerve of some people
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Personally I think the design portion should have no bearing on the winner of the shootout. It clearly needs to be separated into a show award or removed if it can make the difference in a podium position at a RACING EVENT where the car that scored higher in all track events lost because of style points to a car that got beat in all track events. I had alot more typed here but I didn't want to :stirthepot:
These issues will show up more and more as competition gets tighter and tighter, and as long as changes are being made to correct issues like this at the next event to keep things fair, it will keep people coming back. |
The windows were up and dirty because I was busy "networking" and didn't have any time to go visit the car and clean it off on Wed. or Thurs.:lol:
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Don't forget through all this Matt that you've built one hell of a car regardless of what some judges say. You're comments are correct IMO as well.
I think Mike has a good point about removing the "pretty points" from a performance competition. Maybe that's the solution and the direction the people in charge of OUSCI will head. |
"networking"
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: |
I love going to OUSCI! It's a great place to see outstanding cars get hammered.
I was thinking while watching the event that it's interesting to think you can objectively pick a winner at an event when there is a subjective portion of the judging. I agree with your opinion on the design segment! And I agree with whoever said it should be a separate award or eliminated altogether. Personally I think it should be separate to recognize someone who has really gone above and beyond to put together something exceptional. I love having the opportunity to see a mustang that was never built by Ford up close and personal, much less put through the paces at a racing event. More importantly, Matt you were a winner before you arrived at the event! Your car has been at SEMA two or three times?? And you had the opportunity to compete in an event most of us will NEVER get to participate in. No matter what the scorecard or judges may say, you performed better than any of us key-strokers did simply by showing up. So congrats! |
Man I love that color!!
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Aaron, thanks dude! I really need to thank Bill and Yancy for giving me the opportunity to compete in the event. All of us are at least a little bit competitive, otherwise we wouldn't be looking for ways to go faster. I had a great time out there with the car last weekend even though my times didn't set the world on fire. However, next year I will be equally happy to go out there, hang out an BS without having to worry about driving.
BTW, it was funny running into on the street on Friday night. Out of the corner of my eye I was thinking, "hey, that guy looks like Aaron," but it seemed to random of a place and chance occurrence to be you. Sieg, you perfectly captured the look of "ouch that power steering fluid really burns when it gets in those cuts." Man, I don't know, or want to know what is in that fluid, but I still have grime that seems like it is etched into my hands from handling those dirty fittings soaked in p/s fluid. I should probably give the talk about design points a rest, but I had what I thought was a good idea: I think each car should receive xx/25 points based on sub categories (each would carry a maximum of 5 points and minimum of 1)consisting of, strength of concept, cohesiveness of design, fit and finish, form and function and overall presence. This would lend more objectivity to the segment since judges would be basing their decisions less off of personal preference, and more off of personal opinion of how strong a car functioned in each sub category. For example, if a trans am styled car or vintage race style car (i.e. Strope's Martini Mustang) was being judged and it had a rear Lexan window and zero billet parts, and a judge happened to have a preference for billet parts, and limo tinted glass, the car would still be able to receive a fair shake based on the attention to detail used to distinguish the vintage racing theme throughout the car. Most importantly though, it would not force the judges to assign a simple objective points style ranking with clear winners and losers to a subjective design segment. Everyone competing has put a lot of effort into their cars and this system would acknowledge everyone rather than giving (in my opinion) some well built cars zero points. Suppose next year that half of the field is comprised of award winning cars of very similar build quality judges, with this idea judges won't be forced to give one car 25 points and another equally impressive car 5 points. Okay, guys, that's my idea. what do you think? |
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The ranking in the design piece needs to be eliminated. It should be more of a design poker run as you describe with points for specific aspects. There doesn't need to be a winner and loser in the design portion but cars built to a high level should ALL get points. I would also say there should be points within this potion for actual street car amenities. This is supposed to be the Ultimate street car competition. |
My opinion is that the rules are clear before you have the privilege to run the event. It takes 4 solid segments to win including subjective judging. Without the judging, a race type car could easily wipe up the competition with the right driver. The rules seem to favor this segment as a pro touring car has won all but one year?
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I think it is great you made the show and drove it there. Congrats!
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It's an INVITATIONAL. Even cars who qualify through other events are not guaranteed a spot. |
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By standardizing the points system, it makes much more sense. It wouldn't be that hard to put together a plus or minus points system and leave most of the personal opinions out of it. You could break it into 5 categories with a maximum amount of 5 points per category for a maximum total of the same 25 points. One category could be comfort and convenience with one point for each -heater or ac unit -radio -interior, including carpeting -windshield wipers -put a decibel meter in the car at idle, I have no idea what the number should be but the it could be pretty high Those points are pretty clear cut and most street cars should have no problem picking up 5 points right there. One subjective category could be overall appearance/fit and finish and be subjectively judged on a 1 to 5 scale by people without any involvement in the cars that are competing. 1 point available for each of the following: -panel alignment and gaps -paint finish and detail -custom fab work -stance and wheel/tire fit -cohesiveness of theme/execution Even if your car isn't judge friendly because you painted it pepto bismol pink with baby blue spash graphics, you can still pick up points here. Wheels either fit or they don't, and panels are aligned or they aren't. 1 point if they do/are or zero points if otherwise. I don't have it all figured out but something like this would accomplish the orginal goal of keeping out the racecars and promoting quality cars that are well thought out and streetable. Drag week and OneLap have proven that if you can tolerate it, you can drive a racecar across the country, to think that a 75 mile cruise proves streetability is wrong. But using the points to reward someone for building a streetable car seems to be inline with the original intent.......to me. |
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I was lucky enough to received one of the limited edition Topps cards for the Matt Alcala driven 69 Camaro.
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Nice time today! :thumbsup: |
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me too... Does it come with the gum stick that gives you a head ache when you chew it ?
Give em hell today Matt |
Matt picture of your car from post SEMA Cruise on Hot Rod Website.
http://blogs.hotrod.com/sema-2013-cr...#axzz2lHPfYXgZ |
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I'm leaving a Matt A smudge on the trailer and a couple of tools in your honor. Lol
Was great spending some time with you at OUSCI and Scottsdale. |
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:cheers: |
More press. :rolleyes:
@CamaroPerform: #Monday for the #WIN Get some #Camaro right here: http://t.co/xKlzbBUbyZ http://t.co/NOmZKjGNw6 |
Great work! Looks amazing and coming along well.
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So, I'm bringing this back from the dead. It's been four years, and I've probably only put 4k miles on it at most. That might not seem weird for a hot rod, but when its working and trouble free, I drive it EVERYWHERE.
The cool thing about this build thread is that it chronicles pretty much everything from the time I new almost nothing except for things I'd learned on the internet, all the way up to the point where I'd learned "a little something." Now that I'm running things over at Best of Show, I figured it was time to clean the car up, fix all of the things I was unhappy with, and see just how solid of a daily driveable pro touring Camaro we can build! We started rebuilding the car at the beginning of 2018. In 2017 I dropped in a new LS7 from a well known engine builder, ran a total of two events, pulled the motor to seal up leaks, found out the bearings were shot after 1500 miles, rebuilt it, went to LS Fest West, and then lost a titanium valve spring retainer on my way home. At that point I decided to let it sit in the corner of the shop for a while. Everyone has issues with hot rods, and I think it takes a couple builds to figure out what works and what doesn't for the type of car you want to build. I logged about 37k miles on the Camaro, on the street and the track, and everything we're doing is designed to make it better at being a dual purpose car. I'll outline all of the changes and parts going back on the car with photos, and discuss why we're using them, but for now, here's what we're doing, and its basically everything except for the body and interior (for now) -New AME subframe with custom control arms, and spindles designed by Lateral Dynamics -AME IRS -JRi shocks valved by JJ at Ultimate Performance -Restomod Air -New brake system - 454 LS7 with Dailey dry sump - centerforce Dyad clutch -complete rewire with American Autowire -Racepak IQ3 display -cooling system updates |
Been waiting for the details on all of this Matt. :cheers:
What's the bore and stroke on the new 454? |
Hello,
Are you rebuilding the LS7 or sourcing a new engine? |
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It’s always difficult to tell what factor(s) and it can be multiple, were contributing to the failure. Because of this, I always make sure all of the oil lines and cooler are checked and cleaned and also send the injectors out. We also had a bad coil pack, so I replaced the whole set. |
We started rebuilding the car at the beginning of 2018. In 2017 I dropped in a new LS7 from a well known engine builder, ran a total of two events, pulled the motor to seal up leaks, found out the bearings were shot after 1500 miles, rebuilt it, went to LS Fest West, and then lost a titanium valve spring retainer on my way home. At that point I decided to let it sit in the corner of the shop for a while.”
Hi matt I remember you mentioned this to me at ousci last year did engine builder ever make good on a fix for your motor or did you chalk it up as a loss cause? |
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In the instance with the engine in question, I decided to send it out for machining and rebuild it in house, instead of sending it back to the builder, and that's why I haven't mentioned them by name. I also just wanted to send the motor back and get a refund, but they weren't up for that. Anyway, here's why I chose to rebuild it. The first time I pulled it, I found valves from two different manufactures that had different shaped bowls and a 13 percent difference in weight. If it was a kid putting the the heads together, I could maybe understand, but this wasn't an isolated incident, another one of our builds had the same issue. There were other issues like over half an inch of slop in the timing chain, cam bearings that weren't lined up with the oil passages, etc. When I got it all back together I broke a titanium retainer. The engine only had 3k total miles on it, 3 autocrosses and 20 minutes of road course time. For those concerned about buying what I did, you are more than welcome to private message me. |
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I was disappointed to hear of your motor problems - I followed your build (among others) and was vested in it. It was sad to hear anyone from the lat g community experience such troubles but the other inconsistencies you listed above is just plain lazy. Appreciate you sharing your opinion then and now and making the offer to others to pm you if they have questions. Experience shared publicly or via pm is still sharing. I wouldn’t hesitate to 1) Officially use the vendor/member feed back section and 2) also unofficially pm anyone here for their thoughts on any vendor or member I’m about to engage in a transaction and 3) use a credit card in the event it turns to dogsht. I feel I’d get honest opinions either way then be able to proceed in making my own informed decision after. |
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