Thanks John- I really layed the epoxy in there, my key and key way were a very nice snug fit so I dont think a lot of epoxy stayed around the shaft. It looks like it got pushed out the top and married the whole assy to the under side of the rotor mounting plate. Its pretty perminent now.

Rich

Leaving the ECU in sequential mode with no cam signal with fire the injectors at random times and not where they need to run. The ECU will default to a random bank to bank mode.

For sequential on an Domestic EFI engine and XFI I usually use a MSD crank trigger 3/16" or Fast crank trigger 1/16" and mod a MSD billet distributor. It has a much better clean signal than any dual sync and is very easy to install.

The XIM coil on plug works great, I have changed over several of them on big block chevys and it really will wake up an engine. LS1 coils are the norm and work very well. It is a proven setup so there are no worries.

There was some good and bad info in this thread, I will try to be available as much as possible for any FAST, Accel or Big Stuff 3 tech or tuning questions.

At what point does it default ? The LED's are always flashing sequentially when I look at the box, up to the point of RPM being too high to to see the sequence.

Brian,

can you tell me what kind of mods need to be done to the distributor to run sequential? How come know makes a cam sensor distributor so you dont have to mod one? If I converted it over to crank trigger will all the parameter in my timing table need to be changed and re-tuned?

Thanks for the info - Rich

that's the purpose of the dual synch distributors, one to give a spark signal and the second for the sequential fuel injection. Thing is, I have seen more failures and problems getting them set up right with the Accel and other dual synchs I think a standard MSD or similar dist and a crank trigger is the way to go.

You will not have to change the timing tables when adding the second signal, it would be used to have the injectors fire in firing order instead of batch or bank to bank firing. The crank signal would still be used for spark.

Changing to sequential may require minor tweaking to the tune, but nothing major if at all.

Jody

For about $900 you can ditch the Dual Sync distributor or cam signal altogether... by going to the Multiport EZ-EFI kit. That's what I'm doing.

Of course, that will be batch fired - but sequential is all about emissions over power or drivability.

As soon as my motor is done - I'll post up some engine dyno time from start up of this system to final. It should be interesting given the 8 stack EFI I'm running.

Jody - I think you may have mis understood me. I understand that the cam and crank signal come through the dual sync, which is what I currently run. My curiosity lies in the mods that are needed to a standard billet distributor to turn it into a cam sensor only, and why wouldnt fast sell it that way since it seems to be more common to have a crank triggers. Im thinking major surgery needs to be done to the reluctor wheel in order to trigger properly and what do they do with the advance weight and phasing. I dont really know whats involved there but it sounds like you would be hacking up a 300 dollar distributor right out of the box.
Rich

With no cam sync, the engine does not know where #1 is so every time you start the engine it will look for a signal for #1 and may not quite get the firing order correct.

Depending on how you want to run it there are several ways to accomplish sequential,

Fast Dual Sync
Accel Dual Sync
MSD really isn't set up right but will work
AEM 24x will work with the XIM COP box
GM has a Hall Effect Cam Sync that can be used.

I usually just buy a MSD billett standard mechanical distributor and about 30 mins have a good cam sync.

take off the distributor gear
pull the distributor shaft out
take off c-clip below the reluctor wheel
knock off the reluctor wheel and get rid of the roll pin holding it in place
break off 7 of the 8 teeth off the reluctor wheel any 7
drill and tap two 8-32 set screws opposite of each other in the reluctor wheel
put back together with out the roll pin in the reluctor wheel

Now you have an adjustable cam sync and can phase the rotor where you want to.
We have been doing cam syncs this way for at least 10 years now. Proven easy and better than a dual sync for high horsepower stuff.

Timing will not have to be changed, you will find that you will need less fuel in the VE table for sequential.

The XFI has a bunch of better features than the EZ setup. I do however like the EZ EFI, we were playing with it last time I was at comp/fast on the engine dyno.

bank to bank is good and I have run my race car on bank for the first 4 years. It worked fine although I did find that now running sequential it idles much better, spools faster and will 60' much faster than before. So it did pick up some bottom end power.

Little things, now in a stack injection (you are a fan of) sequential is almost necessary unless you are really running a small cam with very good vac. I have found that having the individual cylinder trims with this really helps. If you are running something like a 6 speed, big cam and stack injection then you really have to run sequential or you will find one or two stacks always popping.

I wouldn't at all say that sequential isn't about power or drivability because it is also.

So it actually does not revert to batch fire, it's just not properly sequenced. That is what I thought when I set it up originally. I figured since batch firing is not really timed to valve events, what harm could there be in a random sequential ? As a reminder, my thinking was to have less of a pressure spike in the rails. When I first built this set up, I installed magnets in the damper and made my own trigger bracket with a mini pick up that is the same as the MSD mini. The magnets I used were too small and would loose too much strength when they got up to engine temp. This would cause it to loose the crank signal and misfire. It took me a little while to figure out what was happening. Luckily, I was still testing my crank trigger set up and had not yet modified the distributor to be the cam signal. I simply changed the connector over to the distributor. At some point, I will fix my crank trigger and set it all up properly.


edit:
Brian, you have helped me before on the EFI101 site. Thanks !


I'd really like to see a data base of various EFI tune files with engine specs. I'd be happy to share mine (and take the heat about how crappy they are).

Getting people to post their tune file in a database is a good idea, however most think this is some black magic stuff and they are the only ones that can do it. It's very hard to change that kind of thinking.

The way you have your engine setup, you have to add more fuel than you would have to in order to get it to run good. In bank to bank mode the ECU will fire four injectors every 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation. In sequential it cuts down the firing and only fires one injector per ignition event. To get this to run without a cam sync you would have to really richen up the tune to get fuel left over at the valve to when it opened it would run smooth.

What about the new Fast crank trigger? It is only 1/16 thick and hall effect.

Good info Brian. Thanks! Funny... Dan Peterson and I were just discussing this very thing yesterday... ie., the 'popping'... and I know you and I were trying to find this when you were tuning Pierre's BBC at your shop.

So here's the big EZ EFI question from me (and I'm NOT getting rid of the Accel until I see how this pig runs on the engine dyno). I know the ECM asks if you're running IR... but without a cam signal it's got to run in batch? So with no common plenum - and it's firing in bank to bank (batch) how's that going to work when you have IR? Obviously it works because Inglese is selling this "system" so it must be "okay".

When you say BIG CAM -- what's big (since you're RACER BOY -- LOL)? I'm thinking we're going to run this Comp custom grind as recommended by them.

230/238 .576/.576 (1.6) on a 109.

The part number would be 12-000-8 and the grind number would be CS
3016S/3475S HR109+2

Building a "406" - Dart Pro 1 200cc heads - Honda crank journal - Mahle piston - 6" rod - Dart Little M - 4.155 bore - 3.750 stroke.

PS -- I understand Sequential firing truly making a better EFI system - but this thread is about EZ EFI -- and we know we can't run that way with the EZ EFI ECM -- so it's more about in comparison to a carburetor as far as drivability and fuel milage and "ease" of conversion that I make that "statement".

I mis-spoke - this thread is not the EZ EFI thread I mentioned -- forgot where I was!!! :rofl:

Sorry -- I might even be jacking the thread -- so I apologize for that!

Did you actually say this? hahah just because someone sells something does not mean it actually works. Especially in the EFI world, people try to compare things like a holley comander 950 to a Fast or Accel. It isn't even in the same product range, does it work for what it is meant for... yes.

Bank to bank is only what the EZ system will do, it has no provision for a cam sync. It is supposed to be a budget system for no tuning and 500hp and under. We will see how well it works on a IR system other than the Inglese.... I will be suprised if it does.

I believe the Inglese is a common plenum built into the bottom of the intake or more than the kinsler or hilborn is. Not sure on this but we looked at one at Comp, I will check it out closer in May.

I would only be worried about the 109 lobe sep but the duration isn't too big so it should work good. The key to the IR and EFI is a cam that provides good vac because you are trying to run a style of intake that is meant for drag racing, really. You end up getting enough air for full power long before your throttle angle is large enough for full throttle.

I really do like the EZ EFI system, we have done a couple and were at comp when they did some testing on it. For what it is meant for you can't beat it.
Way better than a carb!!

Pierre's car worked out well, a car that had the right cam/intake combo.

Usually it isn't that way and someone brings up a large cam, no vac, IR intake and a 6 speed. Try to get that to work on anything other than sequential. Fuel needs change depending on what gear you are in and the tuning window is small. Balancing the air going into the intake goes a long way to fixing the popping.

Maybe I should push that out to 112* ??

I need vacuum for the MAP and the fuel pressure reg....

Thanks!

yeah, 112 would be better.

Brian -- Maybe I need to contact Brian Reese and see about that Inglese intake because that would make a HUGE difference if it's running a common plenum!

They're "selling it" as a IR and I suppose "technically" that might be half true... with IR blades but it's not really if it has a common plenum for batch firing.

THAT really bothers me now! Do you have any "ins" with someone that I can check with?? Their website is the absolute WORST in the industry! :cheers:

Call David Page 1-800-667-5763

The PHOTO of their (INGLESE) IR setup appears to use the exact same manifold I'm running -- the old WEBBER intake... no common plenum... Unless they're hiding something on the valley side.. :>)

The only reason I thought I'd try the EZ EFI is because they (Inglese) offer this with the Inglese 8 stack set up... so thought -- HEY! That would be mighty easy... IF -- BIG IF -- it works...

If it has a common plenum and individual throttle bodies then that is a good thing. That is usually the problem with these intakes not working very well with an EFI engine. I think it does. I looked at it last month but we were just in there quick.

Hiding it in the valley is exactly what they did I believe but check to make sure. Which would be good right?

Brian --

Sent you mail...

The problem with INGLESE and FAST websites is just POOR INFO.... and it makes it real hard to be a buyer -- when you're not sure what it is you're buying. So hopefully I can get some concrete answers and get this all put together. I don't mind being an "early adopter" -- but like the know what I need etc.

The problem arrises from showing one manifold style in one location on the website - but visiting the actual "store" shows a completely different style - and now I can't even find the EZ EFI/Intake package.... that was offered! LOL

I like the integrated plenum - that's a great idea - and even better if a guy can use the larger port shown for a PCV port! That is one of the biggest hassles running a "street car" with the 8 stack... is the lack of vacuum (except for the tiny signal in a very small plenum for the MAP). I'm all into buying that entire intake if that's the case - but danged if I can find anyone that will give me the CORRECT scoop!

Very interesting... fuel economy is a concearn... well, more like more MPG is better than less. I took a look at the FAST trigger when you mentioned before and assumed it had to be a hall effect. There are no Mopar applications listed and my damper is not flush across the face. It has a recess. That's actually why I did not use a standard trigger wheel from the start. I have couple of new aftermarket dampers on the shelf, I'll have to check those to see if they are flat.


Just noticed on the FAST site that the new wheels are .125", not 1/16".

Just went out and checked the shelf. I do have several SFI and non SFI flat faced dampers. The other issue I had with the standard flying magnet wheel is the thickness. I have a March single belt serpentine system and there's not much meat on the back of the crank pulley that could be machined off. 1/16" is much more feasable than 1/4". I may not even need to have it cut as I have it shimmed out about 1/8" right now for belt alignment. That may change with the new damper. I've got CAD files of the crank pulley bolt pattern so I could have a wheel cut if I could find a measurement of the tooth height and width.

OKAY --- SO.... bought their INTAKE manifold an hour ago -- The guy you told me to call - called me back -- good guy. There IS A HUGE PLENUM built into the floor of the intake manifold... with large holes (almost 1/2") open to each intake port - so it does have a "common" plenum. He's telling me - with the correct cam etc - that there's enough vacuum (if you make enough of course) to run power brakes and or a PCV valve... which is something I could NOT do with the intake I have now. Since it's IDA based -- I can just swap over my billet throttle bodies -- and should be good to go! We'll see once I have this handy little guy in my hot little hands. :woot:

The crank trigger can be magnetic or hall effect it just depends on how you wire it into the ECU.

The cam sync can also be either magnetic or hall effect same thing.

You are right the Fast wheel is 1/8" and a hall sensor. The MSD crank trigger is 3/8" and magnetic.

I thought it had a large plenum in the middle. I looked at it while we were there and talked to the guy who puts them together. It was a nice looking piece. Still not sure about the bank to bank though.

Why wouldn't you keep your Accel DFI and use this intake?

Brian --

I like the "self tuning" part of the EZ EFI.... and not having to run the Dual Sync distributor. I'm just being an early adopter -- if the EZ doesn't work out on the engine dyno - it won't go in... Also told the builder to do a belt drive cam so we can swap out a couple different versions on the dyno - just to play with this whole system. Once the cam choice is done - we'll button it back up properly. All in good fun.

The intake is pretty reasonable -- and IF -- big IF -- I can run a PCV with it - then it's good! I'd like to dump the whole catch can deal I made up... less plumbing in a street rod is a good thing.

First we'll mess with it on the dyno - then I'll report my findings and how everything worked out.

I am interested to see how well it works with IR intakes.

Really the self tuning is a good selling point but the XFI also has the same feature that works the same way it's called "closed loop" that is how the EZ EFI changes it's internal tables. The XFI has been doing that for years, we as the tuners just want to actually tune it right and make the changes. All of the Fast products have very good closed loop control, better than most of the others.

Have you seen the Joe Hunt distributor? They have a dual sync that looks like an old mag. It has a hall/hall sensor I believe.

A couple of customers I have went to these to keep the old style look.

The problem with Joe Hunt stuff and 8 stack -- CLEARANCE.... Buddy -- let me tall ya it's TIGHT back there!

The Hunt mags I've seen are smaller diameter than a standard distributor. I love the IR setups, ran this one on my Cobra with a FAST ecu.

Jody

Jody -- my problem is HEIGHT! Both personally and with the distributor. As you know - each of these manifolds is different... and I have a fuel log issue right on top the distributor. :>) In order to stab the distributor - I have to remove the back passenger side TB's.
:hail:

height would be an issue with most magneto's.......................... :willy:

Thought I would give a little feedback on the rebuilt dual sync I posted during the winter. I finally got to run the engine today, and it ran better than it ever has, very crisp , cold start was perfect especially after 3 months, revs real fast. The distributor shaft moving around inependent of the rotor had to create some of the misfire. If you have one of these it may be worth spending the time and really go through a good inspection on it.

Rich

Brian --

I think you need a trip back "home" for the initial fire up -- that way you could report back to Inglese/Fast first hand info on how this is going to work!! LOL :thumbsup:

Depending on when you are ready I might be up there. I have some work coming up with Divers Street Rods. I will be back to the northwest often I am sure, I still have customers who I work with up there. Mostly I am traveling places tuning and contracting on bigger projects. Working with other shops making sure they are getting the right EFI stuff. I am working with Divers on the twin turbo Duramax Caddilac and the 39 Ford with the GT 40 engine right now.

Okay -- As soon as I have some idea when she'll be ready - will get in touch with you. Waiting on the crank now I think... but it won't be long once the parts all get here. Heads are here.. rods where shipped - so "soon" I hope!

Sounds like I am going to be in Kennewick May 1st-3rd and have to be in Memphis by May 8th but I though about maybe coming to Seattle after Kennewick inbetween.

Are you going to be that close? If I know how engines go, most likely not.

Yeah -- we've been there and done that - more than a few times. Was down at the wholesale parts joint today -- Heads still in will call... and no crank yet. So I can't even give ya a good guesstimate. If all the parts show up - then yeah but who the heck knows.