Thanks T for your info. How far along are you on your '67 Bird? Did you ever use the T56? If so how do you like it?

Are you still in Iraq or are you finally home?

Thanks Greg and Andrew. It's good to see a healthy debate over Transmissions and it opens up my eyes to what's out there.

Hopefully more chime in to this debate.

Thanks.

Are there any representatives from TREMEC or Richmond on this site?

Thanks.

I'm still in Iraq, hopefully I'll be done within the next year.

I'm not too far with the car, mostly just gathering parts. I have everthing to put the t56 in but haven't done it yet. I have been satisfied with the t56 cars I've driven though. My 01 shifts hard but with 160k miles I think a new clutch would solve that. A TKO would probably be an easier install, but I got my t56 cheap and I'm pretty tall so I like that the t56 puts the shifter farther back. I won't be using a factory console anyway.

Good luck with the build. I think this has made for a good thread for anyone debating this in the future.:thumbsup:

I have not done all my homework about the TKO 500 & 600 but do both of these fit into the '69 Firebird (with a console) without any problems?

Thanks for your service!!

Yeah with the different shifter placements you can get the shifter in the right spot. I just saw on p-t.com that Mcleod will be releasing their new M800 5 speed that is designed to fit w/o mods to floors and such. It won't be available until March but it looks pretty sweet. http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62594

I do not know anything about the Mcleod trans. (and just learning about the other trans as you can tell lol)

Do you know anything about the Mcleod's?

Thanks.

I only found out about it today in that thread. It was just debuted at sema. I guess it's rated at 800 ft lbs, is physically smaller than other over drives, and should cost around $2300 from what Frank at Prodigy Customs said. The Mcleod guy said they won't be out till march though.

I like the torque rating and the smaller size. If Frank is using them then it should be a good product.

Would everyone please tell me what transmission you are running, your car's hp and torque rating, your 1st gear ratio, what rear gear you have, and what your 5th gear rpm is. I am just curious on everyone's response.

Thanks for the help.

Wow Ron I thought I had analysis paralysis. :lol:

TKO 600 w/ .64 OD
650-750hp/tq depending on boost
2.87 1st gear
3.70 rear gear
5th gear rpm around 2200rpm @ 75mph on recent road trip.

Good one Flash.

This may sound like an odd question but would a high hp motor like yours with a low rpm 5th gear (2200) damage the motor in anyway?

Thanks.

No damage at that rpm that I am aware of. I have EFI which definitely helps, but if you are carbed and running at maybe 2000rpm or much lower you could get some bogging and bucking I guess? I don't know at what point/scenario some specific damage might occur though. I'll let someone more knowledgeable answer that one.

:beathorse


:cheers: :woot:

I know I know but I can only learn by asking questions.

Thanks.

Let me ask this question.

What first gear and what rear gear would I need to have a comfortable take off from 1st to 2nd gear in bumper to bumper traffic or pull up in and backing up in a parking spot without the car wanting to take off on me? (with 600+ hp)

Thanks.

it doesn't work that way. Just because it has 600 hp does not mean it wants to "take off on you......." You still control the gas pedal.

Ron --

You need to understand HORSEPOWER.... You don't have "600 Horsepower" at idle or just off idle -- or even at 1500 rpms....

The questions you're asking are just all wrong. Nobody can answer them. There are so many variables - like tire size - cam - cubic inches - rear gear...

Is the motor RADICAL - or is it a pretty tame build - that just happens to make that HP - a Twin Turbo small block can make 1000 hp and drive like a Lexus around town... a big block Pontiac will make so much low end torque (the only good part of any Pontiac motor) that you won't need HORSEPOWER - which by the way - is ONLY a mathematical equation of how much TORQUE you make and what RPMS you're turning...

So if you're big block motor is built with a .700 lift cam - with radical duration - and doesn't make ANY torque below 2500 RPMs -- you're going to have a motor that SUCKS big time for the kind of driving you're asking about... but if you build a nice big block Pontiac with 455 cubic inches and are making 400 ft lbs of TQ at 2000 rpms --- it's going to drive easy - and like a street car should. It's going to FEEL powerful - without being a beast to drive.

So if you build a drivetrain like everyone is telling you to --- a 500 hp 455 Pontiac - Tremec 5 or 6 speed OVERDRIVE - 3:70ish rear gears.... 18" 40 series or 19" 35 series tires -- you're going to have a very nice combo that you'd love to drive and will be hugely powerful without issues. You want to snot it up a couple of notches and start making 700 hp - then it's still all about the CAM and where it makes it's power... and THEN you figure what gears/tranny you NEED to make that combo work.

Thanks Greg and JB and everyone else for your in site, opinions, and help.

I will have more questions about my car and parts as each stage of my build comes along. Now if I could only get my builder to start the metal stage...

Thanks.

I can cruise at 1600-2000 rpm in 5th with mine and it's got a pretty big cam on a 114 lobe separtation. Of course I only do it on flat ground under minimum loads. Big block torque.:D

Is there any possibility of damaging the motor (with a high hp or even a not so high hp motor) if rpm's go below a certain number?

Thanks.

My wife has a Richmond 5 speed in her 73 Camaro. To me it's about as hard to shift as a Muncie 4 speed, maybe a little bit stiffer. It got a lot easier to shift after some break in miles, we use regular non-synthetic oil. Mary loves it and has no complaints, but the shift effort is more than a T56. We have the Hurst shifter which is probably easier to shift than the Long shifter, the long has a shorter stick.

I love the closer gear spacing of the Richmond, but it MUST be used with a 3:08 rear gear or taller. I drove a BB Chevelle with a Richmond and 3:73 rear gears the gears were WAY too close and close gears are not needed with BB torque. You really feel this when just loafing along from a stop light and you are rowing through the gears just to get up to 65 mph. I think the Richmond is more suited to a small block, especially a higher revving small block.

I have been told they are not as strong as the other choices out there. The Richmond has a 450 foot lb rating. This is probably a conservative rating allowing the trans to last many many miles. It does lack support of the gear train in the center which is where failures are reported. The main case splits in half so it's very easy to work on. 5th gear ratio is 1 to 1 so the drive shaft is not spinning faster than your engine.

With your hp and torque, I'd look at a Tremec or T56, especially if you want to do hard drag launches. Common performance gearing for the T56 is 3:90, but you may want to gear a bit lower numerically.
Here's a gear chart I did for our Richmond to plot shift points and rpm drops. Follow the chart to your shift rpm, then draw a line down to the next gear to read your rpm's you will be at after the shift.

FYI, a new Richmond is around $1900. The Hurst shifter is another $300, plus shipping and tax, then add a new yoke.


http://www.pozziracing.com/Media/richmond_chart.gif
Here is a tremec for comparison. I did this chart a few years ago, so this isn't the newest Tremec model. Verify the gear ratios of whatever Tremec you are considering.
http://www.pozziracing.com/Media/Tremec_chart.gif

Thanks David for your thoughts. I see you have not voted in my transmission poll. I am surprised no one voted for the TKO 500 but I guess it's because of the torque rating.

Let me ask you this...can a crusin RPM be too low for a 5 or 6 speed? Can anything below or around 2,000 RPM's damage a high performance motor?

Thanks.