Hey man, I quit smokin ciggerettes married to a smoker (still) and league bowling when EVERYONE smoked on the lanes.

Gotta be able to resist temptation. LOL!

It is hard though not to go a little over here and a little over there. I find myself all too often talking people into putting down the pipe, ROFLMAO!

I don't remember that talk.....:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Great thread guys!!

I started my build 8 years ago this month! After reading PHR I had a plan, it was going to be a basic and very mild PT build. Then I found PT.com and later Scott started this wonderful site. I don't blame the sites for my car costing more than origionally planned, but thank the sites for all the friends I have made and the education I have had along the way! These sites are a great tool and I can't imagine building a car without them! They allow us to build a much better car than we could have without all the info and pics.

I love this community! :lateral:

I'll give that an "AMEN"---exactly right--love this place and the people--lots of fun for sure.

Mike , I do the same exact thing . Owning my own buisness allows me some extra cash . When I have it I buy something new for the car. I will not spend money I don't have ! Over the last three years I have a pretty good inventory of parts . My wife always tells people when they ask ,'' Whats all those car parts doing in your garage, well its the most expensive car I've never seen'' .... It is a addiction no question. But I have to say I believe its a good one to have.

Great thread!

Gwens joke about me is that, "my husband will spend $1000 on tools to do a $100 job"...

That pretty much sums it up. Can't dispute it...

Great thread...I took particular interest in this because I am building a car for the first time. Bought a 69 Camaro in Sept and overpaid for it. It looked a lot better in the pics! I was referred to a restorer just north of LA who has educated me on PT (told me about this site)...I have learned a ton in this past few months and really enjoy reading about these cars from your posts. Most of you guys really know what your talking about. My guy asked me a lot of questions about what i want to do with the car.....race? cruise? show?. He sat down with me on several occasions to explain things. We've finally settled on a great build..LS3 (416. CNC ported, LS7cams from Scoggin Dickey)- , Magnacharger, Art Morrison, DSE quad, Vette brakes, Billet Specialty wheels, Sparco seats, new glass, new rubber, straightened, painted. My view is that I am going to have a bitchen car built the right way the first time. It'll be over $100K "all in", but it will be done and I'll autox it at G events, drive it on the curvey roads of the Santa Monica mountains with my boys, go the wine country with my girlfriend etc.....I can't wait! In the meantime...I'm driving my 09 Challenger.....cool, but nothing like a piece of history! Keeping fingers crossed my guys finishes when he says he will :)

Frank has been a terrific resource for me, and I do remember him giving me some darn good advice about getting to a certain point and then you get yourself in a postion where your all in! I guess I am trying to avoid the all in build so that I can buy a Mc Rib sammy on sundays! I just need him to open a chicago branch to paint my car.

Great thread guys. I've been so busy that I've not been able to get on here in over a week, which is probably the first time that has happened. I just got done reading all 9 pages of the thread. I'd like to give my thoughts, which are that of Greg's in that this is suppose to be a "hobby". This site has allowed me to learn from everybody and allowed me to dream by watching/looking at these awesome builds/cars. Without dreams, you will have no goals.
While I may not have a six-figure car, my Camaro means just as much to me if it were a six-figure car. I continue to do things to it as money allows me to. Slowly, it is getting where I want to go with it. I have alot of people who think that since it is a third-gen Camaro I must be redneck...not true. Ever since I was a little kid, I wanted a third-gen Camaro...so it represents a passion for cars and a goal. I got my Camaro after college and now have been able to modify it to what I want in following the pro-touring theme. I have done things to my taste and as I can afford them. While it has not been a build to the extent of alot of cars on here, the cars on here have inspired me and raised the bar--so to speak. I just have a huge passion for cars and this great hobby. To me there is nothing more theraputic than getting in my Camaro and driving around town, going to a cruise, taking it to Iowa to hang out with my dad, or to wherever. This hobby has allowed me to share some great times with my dad and meet alot of new and great people. My son is just over 2 yrs old and already is into cars. I can't wait to share this great hobby with him as he grows.

That's because your deep into the pipe... you don't get the talk.

I've already OD'ed and been reincarnated.:unibrow:

Interesting thread, and so chillingly accurate.

Let me say up front:
1. My car building skills are crap. they are OK but not show quality
2. I run my own business and have a young daughter and a wife who could care less about cars (sees them as a waste of time and money)

But from the age of 10 I have wanted a killer Camaro, as the years went buy and cars I could afford came and went, I said I was going to build a top shelf car, and do it soon.

Worked my butt off and got the money.

I had a budget, and I am the first to openly admit that budget was $180K (aussie). I planned to outsource the entire build due to skills and time. I expected it to be 3 years.

Well, I am just over 3 years into the build. It will probably take another 6 months to complete

It's also looking like I'll end up around $250K Aussie.

I can tell ya freight costs for me for all the goodies from Prodigy, the car itself, Bill Mitchell, DSE and Summit to name just a few is in the thousands.

Good news is my car is almost exactly the plan, very little if anything changed, just under estimated the cost to do it.

This car is a life long dream that will soon be complete.

And it will be driven !!

Bottom line, budgets are essential in this game, even for those spending a lot of money on these cars. It's not hard to spend 6 figures on these cars, but even he best budgets can be easily blown.....

Great thread, gives insite into a lot of members views.

In response to the OPs question

I think it's better to have a running car you can take out and enjoy (even if it isn't even a 40-70 thousand dollar car) than it is to have a pile of parts and a skeleton of a $150,000.00 car.


My observations

Since the PT G-machine hobby segment of the car hobby is fairly young, many of the cars being sold as "projects" now were started when the PT style started to "catch on". As others have said life happens and plans change for whatever reason, as there are more PT style builds being done now there are more unfinished projects being sold.

The (relatively) few cars that are being used competitively are admired by folks who see posts with pics/videos of the cars being driven and that sparks their interest and desire to build a cool car. Whats not to like about the concept of a wicked fast car that can go around corners and stop? The concept of a street driven car that can hit a dragstrip, Auto X, Land Speed Race, or road course is appealing.

Many think by starting with an inexpensive car needing work it will save them money. Then as many of you are aware of what can happen next they start to slide down the slippery slope. It's slow at first as they start working on the car and find rust in places they weren't aware there was rust, and then they realize the rust they knew about is a bit more extensive than they thought. "So it'll need quarters instead of patch panels." The owner thinks "well might as well mini tub it then! That will be cool!" not realizing that they are sliding down the slippery slope they're psyched at the excuse to mini tub.

Then they order the mini tubs, quarters etc and begin. While working on the body the decision to do a "frame off" is made "because it will be easier". Then work slows as the scope of the project increases. More time is spent on research than working on the car as a plan is formulated. Research begins on rears, subframes, suspension, brakes. While all this research is occuring the focus slowly turns from performance goals to aesthetic goals. At the same time the cost of the project escalates but the owner doesn't realize how much more it's really going to cost. They just add up the major component costs without including everything that will be needed.

A basic plan is made and parts start being ordered. (even though they're not needed yet) Some work is being done but more research is conducted while waiting for the basic needed parts. Then as parts arrive and more work is done more questions pop up and the scope increases again. Plans are revised and additional expenses are added. But it's "OK, because even though it'll take a little longer I'll have my dream car"

Over the next couple years unexpected life maintenance expenses come along that take money away from the car budget. Less work is done on the car because there's no point in doing work because there's not enough money to finish it "right". Some work is performed occasionally over the next couple years. Then something comes along that puts the nail in the coffin and stops the project dead. It might be child expenses, new job, moving, divorce, sidetracked by another car, or whatever. At that point the decision is made to put the project car up for sale, but, "I don't need to".

And yes, I'm guilty of sliding down the slippery slope. I have a 66 Mustang I started over 20 years ago. I've moved it from place to place and probably should have sold it long ago but "I don't NEED to" LOL And in my case all of the reasons listed above should have applied !!! AHAHA It's cost me more to move it, store it, and retrieve it when it was stolen than it's worth!

Why don't I finish it now? Too busy on the Firebird and Malibu. Why don't I sell it now? Who knows? I guess because "I don't NEED to". LOL

To be honest I don't think that things have chnaged that much, it's just that more people are now becoming aware of more unfinished PT cars coming up for sale, as the PT scene grows. The more people that get involved, then the more people are likely to drop out. It's all about percentages really. I've been restoring top end cars for close on 30 years & have found that car builders fall into 3 main categories. The rich ones that money is no object, no parts are too expensive & they are constantly pushing the envelope to be "top dog" in the show arena or on track.

The second type is the one that have the skills to do most of the work themselves & just need a shop like ours to finish things off for them. They budget accordingly & have a clear goal as to what they want within their budget. They go as far as they can by carrying out their own build & then take it to a shop to be finished, which normally includes painting & general build up, leaving the final finish & detailiing to the customer.

The third type of builder though are the ones that haven't fully prepared a plan of attack for the restoration. Unfortunately, these guys have a vision that far exceeds their personal car building skills & a bank balance that doesn't match their dreams. They see all of the "must have" parts being fitted to cars on forums & magazines & tend to follow the trend by buying them.When their lack of car building skills hits home, it comes to a point where they haven't the budget to finish the car by professionals as they've spent their money on unnescessary parts.

My own '69 Camaro is a case in point, the guy I bought it from stripped it to a bare shell, ripping out everything down to the last nut & bolt. He then proceeded to buy parts for it, but rather than just buy the essentials like body panels at that point, so that the rebuild could start, he went out & bought all of the "must have" parts, that he didn't need. By the time he'd finished buying all of the parts, he couldn't afford to have the bodywork done by a professional, as he'd spent all of his money on stuff that he didn't need at that point. Had he just got the essentials to get the car to paint stage, in the time it would take to get it into paint, he would have been able to save the money to buy the "must have" bits. 'Cos the car was just sitting there, with a small fortune of parts sitting in his garage, unable to progress any further, he became disillusioned with it & put it up for sale. This is probably why so many cars are left unfinished, due to poor planning & an unrealistic opinion of how much the car is gonna cost to rebuild

Cheers......Nige

Wow, I cannot believe that I just took the time to
 

read all 10 pages of this post. It must hit home for a lot of folks.

My car is the perfect example of "scope creep" It started as a motor swap to a big block. Took way longer than I planned...6 years. Spent 3 times the money I planned.

What I ended up with was a once in a lifetime car for myself. Most of the cars that I had built before were heavy on performance with average looks. If it did not make it go fast I did not want it. I love my car, but would never build another one like it. I built it too nice for what I wanted to do with the car. If I built another it would be a primer car with all the go fast goodies. It has been finished for 2.5 years now and I find the new has worn off of all that shiney paint. Rock chips don't bother me and I am ready to hit the track....as Frank at Prodigy said, "its just paint."

I have thought about selling it a few times because of what I stated above. I got over that and now realize that at this stage in my life I do not have time to build another car, if I did build another one it would still be a 69 Camaro and you all know I am not getting any younger.

Stay tuned for dead cat and a half coming soon.

I can already hear my phone ringing!

Make sure you have that talk with Payton first.:rofl:

Those who live in glass houses should
 

not throw stones,Todd. LOL

It may have been stated already 'cause I didn't read everybodys rant..another issue is everybody wants the latest "widget"

This happened 15 years ago with the street class drag race cars. We all had 12-13 second cars and a "heavy hitter" was solid into the elevens. The track hero was a 10:20 car. Then all the hype hit and everyone had to build a 10 second car...buying parts they couldn't afford. Most cars sat for years because they wouldn't be caught dead running iron heads, etc.


flash forward 15 years...
and you ain't cool if.....
stock subframe, leafsprings, etc etc....ahhh but then there is Mary Pozi kicking everybody's but with ...stock leaf springs and a stock subframe.

There are people, like Greg mentioned who are having a blast just driving thier cars.

With this economy I see people doing stuff like Jason Rushforth...upgrade slowly and keep it on the road, paint and trick parts are for later times.

I would love to see this becoming a bigger movement, but who wants to pay $4.95 for a Mag full of cars with rough fitting sheetmetal and less than perfect interiors etc

That's some good insight.

250K??? What was the Dollar at when you bought? :geezer:

well bought it at 78 cents.

car landed in oz after Fx, freight and taxes for $16K
Engine (World 632) landed after Fx freight and taxes $22K
AME c5 Clip landed in Oz after Fx, freight and taxes $11K

That's $49K right there without a spanner laid to the car

I have also bought
DSE tank
DSE tubs
a ton of Fesler, marquez billet stuff
I have also bought a whole bunch of stuff from Ricks
Dakota digital guages
Retrotek push button shifter ($1K after tax and shipping etc)
Bought two sets of wheels, a custom billet set here in Oz, and just laid out another $4.5K for Rushforths. Only thing I have changed on the car during the build
Strange diff center - after Fx, freight and taxes over $4K at my house
Billet Specialities pulley system
Edelbrock 2 x 600 CFM's in Endura shine
Edelbrock Endura Shine dual quad manifold

$4K in a heavily built TH400

$4.5K in full custom 3" exhaust - full stainless

all of the above is before any labour on the car. Without adding it all up (I do have a spreadsheet) it's has over $100K (Aussie dollars) in car and parts. Note the dollar has swung between 75 cents and 90 cents, I have bought at an average of about 83 cents.

If you take away Fx and freight costs, car and parts are probably around the $70K USD. I don't think this is too unusual for most high end builds on this site, not all but some.

My car is pretty heavily customised, entirely hand build metal interior, so lots of labour costs.

Full custom 4 link built by one of Australia's top drag car chassis builders. Over $6K just in the rear end

There is actually $140K Aussie spent already (cash outlaid).

Not even in paint yet. So I think it will go over the original $180K budget.

We are going to paint 5 coats of base then 4 coast of PPG Vibrance pearl and at least 6-8 coats of clear, so paint alone will be $20-30K, and I still have interior and all electrical stuff, custom radiator, glass kit, custom rubbers to flush mount, still need to smooth the bumpers etc etc

Final note - the car is a 100% outsourced build, first to admit if I want a show quality car, I have neither the skills nor the time, so I have worked my arse off to get the funds to achieve what I want. Happy to share my detail I am not embarrassed by my build, even if it costs more than it should, my view is always you get what you pay for and the builder is just awesome.

^^^^^There is nothing to be embarassed about. Quite the oppisite in fact. You had a goal, earned the funds, planned and researched and are now in the home stretch of realizing your dream! I say GREAT JOB!:cheers:

Mate im just finding that amount Hard to beleive when i know of other cars that have more expensive parts and fab work and finish that have cost alot lower than that amount.
20-30k in paint ALone.
Just in your engine and front clip you've got about you have over 12 K in just freight cost & Gst....:wow:
It doesnt bother me how much you have in your car, its more about me finding the best possible way to cut costs
coz for me to pay a 1/3rd in Freight and fees is hefty!

Cool, wasn't upset, as said happy to share...very excited I get to put my new Rushforth's on today woo hoo !

I just had a look at those Rushforths also. Shiny or what :thumbsup:

LOL - Your wife an my wife must be the same since my wife say's the same thing.

Even funnier --Kenny, Kenny Who.

Even better -- Tracy - now there is a Tracy

Okay so back to the post at hand.

I've built countless Trucks and a hadful of cars.

Something happended several years back and I decided to see what I could do if I started a project and then teamed up with the best shop out there. The goal was to build something completely different and do it over time. For me it's about the journey. I love planning the build, sourcing the parts, finding new idea's for each phase of the build.

I've met and worked with some incredible people. For me it's all about the friendship and the hobby.

I don't drink, I don't smoke, don't do drugs and I'm married so I don't have nearly as much sex I would like ( please I hope my wife doesn't read this ). heck I don't even drink soda as i find it's a waste of money.

So I have more money available for my hobby them most. If I spend more the 7 or 8 bucks on lunch / dinner I am actually angry because to me that's money I could be spending on my hobbies ( cars & Mountain Bikes )

Trust me you think car's are expensive try spending $1400.00 for a set of rims for a bike. The $200.00 for disk brakes and $100.00 for a cassette and you still have to pedal it up hill.

I have no clue if what i've posted makes any sense for me it was just a rant and I do feel better.

ps The next project which is in the planning stage will be on a completely different budget plan but should attract just as much attention as my current build.

Awesome Web site - i've looked at it many times

[Quote:
I'll leave it with this... I love fussing with my hobby -- but I love fussing around with the FRIENDS I've made because of my hobby, more. In the end - it's about the PEOPLE - not the cars... The pasta is just there to get the sauce to your face.. cars are that way for me... I've met GREAT people of all walks of life because the car hobby makes me get out and do stuff... I have friends whose cars break down every time they drive them... and I'm called upon to help rescue them... and we always end up having fun with the "experience". I have friends that have MILLIONS of dollars invested in cars... and we have just as much fun blowing their stuff up - or scheming about "what coulda shoulda"...

I'd like to have Ironworks - or Prodigy - or Comp-Spec build me a car - but not because I want to impress any of you with how much I can spend - I'd do it because I'd love to hang with them - and learn from them - and be friends long after the build was finished... I can buy their shops and close 'em up and never skip a beat... but I'd sweep their floors for months just to be around what they're doing. Does that make sense to anyone? It's why we all hang around Lat G isn't it? The hobby. I don't care if people even own a car... if they love the hobby and choose to participate, regardless of their level. :cheers:[/QUOTE]


Greg,
Well said!:thumbsup:
I totally agree if you don't drive it...don't buy it!
What a thought provoking thread. After reading this I find myself sitting here and just smiling thinking of all the funny circumstances and interesting people that I have met because of cars. I have been involved with this crazy hobby since birth, my father owned a few local service stations back in the 70's and it was normal to just hang out at the shop. I got my first car a 68 camaro when I was 14 and my friends and I used to work on it in my mothers driveway including using her tupperware to drain the oil in. (not a good idea by the way) During and just after high school I was heavily involved in sand drag racing and most recently I started All Speed. My point is I have a thousand great stories that involve cars and interesting people. I have heard many times that what matters is the journey and not the destination...and you can not put a price on a good time. I deal with all types of people that pass through the shop doors and all I can say is that I'm sure they all have their individual reasons, plans, budgets etc. for their projects, and yes they all get carried away in their own respects. But what really matters in the long run is if they had fun doing it. I think I speak for all of us when I say we would all do it again... and have a smile on our face! Thats what is so cool about this hobby a millionaire can hang out with a mechanic, and guy with a $200K car can go cruising with a guy with a $20k or less car and they can both have fun. Maybe we should start a thread on "car memories"? By the way no offense to you Greg but I have been in Todd's garage and I would call him to sweep ASP!:unibrow:

Yeah -- Todd owes me dinner anyway - so a promise to sweep his shop might get me a burger... :woot:

I can guarantee it won't be Prime Steakhouse at the Bellagio. :rofl: I don't think my garage will ever be the same after the exxon valdez spill over here. :D