So what color is it going to be?:D

Well..... Not sure yet.

There never was a time I looked at Red Devil and did not love that red. I really like the white on Camaro X because I could wash it and dry in 10 minutes. Or some other solid color that can be retouched easily.

I have Murray Pfaff doing some designs so I have a lot of time to decide.

Mark

Sorry. Im not a Camaro guy but in this pic it looks more like a frame plate rather than a rail. Is the frame rail really cut that narrow for the mini-tub? Another pic from another angle would help clarify.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps44978522.jpg


Thanks for the detailed build info.

Wow, sounds like that Formula SAE program at the University of Missouri- Rolla (UMR), which is now called Missouri University of Science and Technology), served to create some heavy hitters.

Mark Stielow,..... Kyle Tucker and now we learn Dave was also part of that program. Very Impressive.

He's not doing white ! I'll Killllllll himmmmm.........

start working on your alibi........ :lol:

Yes, depending on the fabricator it can get down to a 1/2" in that spot. Behind the area where Mark added the plate. But remember it is heavily reinforced in that area with 2 0.120" plates. Probably stronger than stock. Then add the strength from the cage down bars.

Hopefully Whirpool doesn't sponsor Mark then...cuz their new style replacing stainless is 'White Ice', and it'll be all over that car.


:lol:

I always thought Camaro X looked killer in white. I was very surprised you (Charley) had so much trouble finding a buyer for the car in white. I didn't have the stack of bills available to make my opinion matter though... ;)

the removal of heat from a heat generator. Water to air cooling or the exhaust. In this case he was referring to the inner cooler or heat exchanger efficiency.

That's kind of funny because that was one of the reasons I intiatially bought it (an original 50 50 code - Dover White car). ...in addition to it being a pretty solid CA black plate car.:cheers:

John

In this case, there is 3 sources of heat - engine, supercharger and AC. Breaking that down further, engine heat in form of coolant and oil, supercharger heat in form of air and AC in form of refrigerant.

Engine heat in coolant and oil comes from the inefficiencies of an IC engine - only about 1/3 the energy released from combustion actually makes power, another 1/3 goes into cooling system (coolant & oil) and 1/3 goes out exhaust.

Since this is a SC engine, also have to take into account mechanical energy used to drive supercharger - in Red Devil and Mayhem, this worked out to ~120-140HP. So Mayhem generating an output of 878 HP is actually generating over 1000 HP already - and that also nearly equals the amount of energy we need to release from cooling system.

Complicating this further, we have the heat from the intake air charge to reduce as well - and use air-to-water heat exchanger with a stand-alone cooling system to then convert this with a water-to-air heat exchanger in front of car. Since delta-T is critical for heat exchanger effectiveness, we package the intercooler radiator in front of the cooling stack (all the heat exchangers in front of car) to get greatest delta-T for charge air cooling. This adversely effects radiator efficiency as air temp reaching front face of it is already heated above ambient. And we have 1000+ HP worth of heat to dissipate from it.

Packaged between the CAC (charge air cooler radiator) and the coolant radiator is the AC condenser. At least Mark hasn't become too much of a wimp is his old age to want to race with AC on, so while this doesn't add heat to air flowing through, it does add pressure drop of airflow through entire cooling stack.

We also have engine oil to contend with - and can either use oil-to-air heat exchanger, or oil-to-water. If oil-to-water, this is more KW to release through radiator. If oil-to-air packaging, airflow restriction and preheated cooling air have to be considered.

All this is converted to heat transfer equations and calculated to optimize the entire cooling system of heat rejection balance.

Drag racing is easy - you can get away with a whole lot if only running in <10 second bursts of WOT. Road racing makes this much more difficult as entire system reaches equilibrium.

And haven't even talked about trans and diff oil cooling yet....

Dave

Wow, very cool, Dave. :faint: :D ...you are an awesome dude.:thumbsup:

John

Spoken like a true engineer. Very well worded.

Thanks Dave, that was an interesting read.

Amazes me how you guys continue to raise the bar with each build.

Don't give em a reason for even fatter heads.

Can fatter heads process more data?


Cause this s#\+s awesome

you can only pull so much foam out of a helmet. :D

LMBO!!!!:lol:

Dave and Mark too, would locating the different fluid to air exchangers in separate spots be better? Or do you run into other obstacles such as air flow and packaging that cause it to be too cumbersome or add too much weight? I'd also imagine aero considerations have to be factored in there too. Instead of having one central area to concentrate on having proper air flow through, you'd have multiple.

On Red Devil we ran the diff, tran, engine oil good and power steer was all sent to the front of the car to be cooled. On Mayhem we move the trans and diff cooler to the back to reduce the thermal load on the front. Mayhems engine coolant temp as very on track but we are still chasing an engine oil cooling issue. On Camaro XV I'm adding an even bigger rad and oil heat exchanger.

But as we attempt to rebalance the thermal load Thomson is upping the power..
I think we can keep it cool and make more power.

Mark

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I'm probably going to step out on a real thin limb here but I dont see the purpose of running coolers for rear diff, power steering, and trans when you may run 25 minutes a session at most?

Trust me. If the trend continues it WILL be plenty COOL... even if the temp is a bit to the high side. I'm just sayin'...:thumbsup:

Thanks Mark! Good luck.

I'm running a NA LS7 with a lot less HP than Mark - about 600 - and I certainly can't drive my car as close to the limit as he does his :) But I still find PS and trans cooling to be essential for Summer track days, I think partly because temps never return to baseline between sessions. By the 2nd or 3rd sesssion, both steering and shifting went to hell by 10 minutes in without coolers. My diff temps are marginal - 260 - 280 with synthetic fluid - and I haven't added a diff cooler yet.

With over 700 - 800 HP on tap and my driving style I can over temp the diff in 3 laps. The power steering I can over temp autoXing in a few laps easy. I have less data on the trans but while I'm at it I add one. If someone is not going 10/10ths then the extra cooler are not needed.

If your car is running lower power then the coolers are not needed. I have gotten diff so hot that it has ruined gear sets. I forget how many Watts the diff buts out but it is not insignificant.

I will add a disclaimer here. My builds are not normal and my duty cycle is not normal. Heck if I run a full 25 min. session I get a lot of stuff real hot.

Mark

Well I probably should have known better to question an engineer. I was just thinking how much power and weight loss you would gain without those items.

Thanks for the explanation.

I'm running an NA 427 620/560 to the crank and my KRC aluminum PS pump has treated me well so far since 2002. My trans is spec'd for Royal Purple by the builder and I change fluids after every track day and the oil still looks good. Trans in car since 2006. No cooler for rear diff either and car is used strictly for time trials on road courses. Same Eaton carrier since 2004.
This is why I asked the question.

Yeah, I think the experiences on this can be quite variable. For instance, I think the T56 trans in 1st or 2nd gen is likely to be more vulnerable to overheating issues, due to the very tight fit in the tunnel and the close proximity of exhaust routing for optimal ground clearance. I've built two 1st gens and one 2nd gen with a T56, and all of them would develop sticky shifting issues as the day went on with multiple track sessions - and I tried, by my count, at least 5 different synthetic trans fluids trying to cure the problem.

I'd note that late model Z06 vettes and SS or ZL1 Camaros have trans coolers standard, and that probably influences my perspective as well. As an engineer myself, I tend to think the decisions of engineers to add extra cost/extra weight items to a production vehicle are based on rational considerations.

On the PS front, things again are quite variable. On my 2nd gen, with an older stock style PS pump and recirculating ball box, never had a problem with no cooler. On my '69, using DSE pump and rack, I've had fluid boilover even with a cooler.

Overall, after many track outings that have ended early for one obscure failure or another, I am much more in the "over-engineer from the beginning" camp. Different strokes :thumbsup:

I hear you...most guys build for the street so different strokes for sure.
With Mark trying to incorporate a street/track combination there are definitely more challenges to be met. Especially when laying down that kind of power.:thumbsup:

Seeing the engineering and the product Mark produces I think after 15 camaro's of learning and testing each, I'd be doing what he sais. Cool stuff.

Good Point!:thumbsup:

When you are making Stielow power.......Just think about the pressure transferred between the teeth on the pinion and the ring gear under full throttle......tremendous pressure equals Lots "O" Heat........and that go's for everything else in the system...........

Ken

I have been thinking about heat management in my project as well. I looked at the Corvette racing team's cars and observed that the rear bumper covers are vented and visible through the screen is what looks like an AC condenser and fan, the possibility that other heat exchangers are tucked in there is pretty good. I've not been under a 69 Camaro but I have seen some custom work on the lower valances on many cars. Usually it's for exhaust tips but I was thinking that maybe there is enough room to mount heat exchangers there and vent them through the valance. This will package and work well for my car but it certainly won't work for a lot of vehicles.

says the guy that "boiled" the top off of his power steering pump on a track day. :rofl:

Been there, done that.

Mark, are you running thermostats on the drivetrain coolers (differential + transmission) combined with differential gear oil squirters?

Any concerns with EHL film thickness on the engine bearings running 1000+ piston horsepower?

First Thomson 427SC engine was built and run way back in 2008. This was for his Pontiac Solstice and utilized LSX block, LS7 heads and Harrop 2300SC. Engine made 990+ crank HP with an aggressive cam, and dropped to 850 crank HP with milder cam as installed in car. After over 100 dyno pulls and 5000+ miles installed in car, engine was disassembled and all parts blueprinted / inspected for wear. All looked great. Keep in mind this was never used for road-race or extended high duty cycle use, so powertrain cooling was never an issue.

At same time this was ongoing, Thomson was developing a twin-turbo LSX generating 2000+ HP. Original engine was 440 CID and dyno testing reveled that after few pulls, crank bearings were distressed, and had they not been coated bearings, a bearing failure would have been likely. Issue was traced to crank deflection under load, so stroke was shortened (increased overlap of throws and mains) to increase strength. Engine then completed 150 full power pulls on dyno (2058 HP average) and subsequently disassembled. All bearings looked like new.

Fast-forward to today:

Based on these and countless other engine builds, testing and further development, Thomson 427SC engines have proven themselves robust even under extreme racing type usage (Mark's cars being one of the most aggressive test beds used). We continually refine and improve package based on knowledge gained over each build and test data. This includes not only hardware selection, but assembly clearances, powertrain cooling requirements and calibration refinement.

Mark has said on many occasions that not only are the Thomson 427SC engines the most powerful he has ever utilized in his builds, they have also been the most reliable and driveable as well. And hard to dispute the results.

Not sure if this directly answers your question as we lack the technology to measure oil film thickness, but empirical data based on many, many engines supports where we are today (with headroom to grow:unibrow: ).

And...

Wow... This is above and beyond the most informative, real-world experience information I have ever read on a forum of any kind. On occasion I think I have most all the knowledge I need to accomplish a goal, then I get slapped into reality with posts like these and it makes me thirsty for more information.

I am so grateful that you guys share this information with us, I learn something every day on this site. Being a "fly on the wall" has never been so interesting!

Thanks!!! :lateral:

Interesting. So Mayhem's motor is more powerful than the Mule's TT SBC? I always wondered what Mark's thoughts were on comparing his latest cars to the Mule. That thing was so far ahead of it's game when he built it. Love that car I hope Charley never sells it.