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The reason people don't like the smaller journals is that there is actually more rotational speed and load on the bearing with a smaller journal... speed and friction create heat. Heat is bad. While .10 difference seemingly is "small" == when you're revving at 6,000 rpms - all the math adds up quickly.
Sorry to hear of all your headaches Bryan! Been there - done that. By the way -- I hate aluminum radiators. Old cars were never made to support big aluminum radiators... we "wrack"(?)(twist 'em) them and the tank to fin area doesn't like that!! My Nomad was a master at it. #1 the standard radiator had a tank on the top and bottom and was narrow. We then modify our cars and put a WIDE radiator in with tanks on the sides... Then we add stiff suspension (over stock) - big fat ass tires... drive our cars like they're Porsches... beat on them... and then wonder why that poor radiator couldn't take it. The fix?? Isolate the hell out of it... don't bolt it straight to the core support... Get some wubba (rubber) in there. Or have it supported in a way that the radiator "floats" on it's mounts. |
If I had to buy a crank I wouldn't stick with the small journal sizes, the bearing options become far more limited with the smaller sizes.
FWIW the bearing damaged was NOT caused by debris from the valve spring incident. Something else caused this, the broken valve spring likely saved you from turning the whole thing into a boat anchor. I'm going to do some checking today at the shop, I may have a solution for you. Text me before you buy anything. |
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It's on it's way back to PRC now, should get there Tuesday, and I'll find out what the heck happened. |
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To prevent this, I'm going to add the Accusump to help prevent these kinds of problems in the future. I'm also going to a normal volume pump instead of the high-volume pump. Finally, I may switch lifters to get rid of the plastic lifter trays that I think can hold oil. Mine have been drilled, but it still seems they could be a source of problems. Thoughts on that topic? Quote:
Thanx again everyone for the suggestions and knowledge you've all shared. I'm still learning about the LS internals since this is my first time digging into one... |
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Greg, your mostly correct concerning the smaller rod journal diameter. It does have the POTENTIAL to create more heat, because there is a greater load on the smaller bearing (all things being equal), but the rotational speeds, at the bearing surface, will be slower. You have to think radius here. Why people DO like the smaller rod journals, is because it gives you the opportunity to run a lighter rod/rod bearing combo, which allows an engine to accelerate quicker. You nailed it on the radiator twist info, however. Ok, carry on people... |
Bad Dyno day
I always thought a smaller journal was easier
to keep lubricated... thus keeps from having dry spots and spinning bearings.. I think my dart has smaller journals like a cleveland in a windsor style block Also same thing with Pontiacs ...400's have a smaller journal than a 455.. bore etc are the same but it has an advantage. Accumulator or dry sump is the best bet in motors with issues.. never seemed to be a problem with my dart block.. always a problem with my Pontiacs... spun many a bearing in my time even a DZ 302 motor.. but as at kid 8000 rpm was cool I have tried many pans with sumps three trap doors etc never seemed to work on a Pontiac Bob Bob |
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Step it up and go for the 1.88 Honda journal. :) |
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Not much new to report except that I got more quotes from TSP. I had a 4 hours drive yesterday during which I spent more time thinking about my combination. I realized that if I'm going to have to buy the rotating assembly, I could bump the cubes by adding stroke to the combination. I'm going to discuss this with TSP and BTW regarding my cam option, but for $50 or $100, that's a simple choice unless there is a disadvantage that I'm not aware of...
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I decide to not stroke mine due to lateral load on the block and extra heat. The offset is that you don't need as much RPM to make power if you do stroke it. Overall I'm happy with my HP number and feel my combo is reliable overall which is what I wanted. Just something to think about. You have to decide for yourself
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I don't see 4" stroke being an issue unless you're consistently running it past 7000 rpm, and even then some will likely debate that.
Street cars like cubes and torque... and this IS a street car, right? :stirthepot: Get the extra cubes while you have the "opportunity"... |
You'll spend more time driving the meat of the torque curve than the meat of the horsepower curve......unless you're on a fast road course the majority of the time. :thumbsup:
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Given that I've done more autocross events than I have road course events, I could DEFINITELY use the increased torque under the curve to propel the car. That's why I'm focused on doing things with this rebuild that will improve the mid-range torque generated. I'm fighting myself given that I selected the single plane intake for this setup, but I think I can end up with a combination I'll be plenty happy with. Researching engine data for the LS platform is like a drug for me: I'm addicted to learning!
ALl that said, I'm not sure it's worth the risk to step up the stroke from the current 4.000" to 4.125". There is a lot of debate on this topic that I've been devouring the last 2 days, but I'm leaning away from it now and sticking with the known 4.0" combination. Tim, it was good meeting you yesterday. Glad the weather cooperated and you were able to bring the Camaro out. And if you can find that info we discussed, send it on over. :) I'm back in Austin finally, so I hope to make some moves forward this week. I haven't heard back from TEA on the status of the heads. I do need to touch base with TSP and let them know something. I can't really move forward with them until I know what I'll be doing on the heads though. If this combination is going back together, I'll need to specify the pistons to use before any of the bottom end work can start... |
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http://static.carthrottle.com/worksp...83a54b7d15.jpg |
Time for an update...
It's not been a good week, but at least I have more data to make decisions about moving forward. Things I've found this week:
Then, in preparation for the possibility of the heads needing to be replaced, I was searching for aftermarket sets of those. I found a great set for sale that I was emailing with the seller about. Danged if he didn't sell those last night, so again, just missed them... On the positive side... Eric shipped my leaking radiator back to PRC who originally manufactured it, and they agreed to repair the pinhole leak at no cost, other than shipping. So that's one little problem solved. Also, while everything is apart, I called AGR who made the steering rack I put in the car last year. My PS pump has been making some strange noises. I got an education on pumps and racks, and I have a new pump on the way from them. Hopefully that will take care of that problem! At this stage, I have a half-formed plan in place. With the additional problems that I've found, I've decided to get my crank fixed by ShafTech and Callies which will allow me to reuse it and my rods. Unless I stumble onto an LS7 block before the crank returns, I will go ahead and reuse my block and build it back as a 405 (4.010" bore / 4.000" stroke). I am continuing my search for a set of heads, but at a minimum I'll buy a set of CNC ported L92's. I could either get the GM CNC version, or have one of the many different shops that do the CNC work do them for me. I am going to call a few of those tomorrow to discuss pricing and lead times... I'm probably going to get the new LT1-S twin-disc clutch setups to ensure that I don't run into a clutch issue in the near term: http://monsterclutches.com/2004-2006...eet-gto-clutch Steve just installed this in his LS / T56 build and seems to like it. That's it for now. More to come soon... |
One more thing that I learned today...
The likely cause of the valve spring failure was the engine sitting for so long after being assembled. The motor was originally built back in 2007 if I remember correctly. I didn't fire it up until 2013. So there's a good chance that a few valve springs were compressed for 5+ years. It seems that can cause springs to weaken and ultimately fail. Makes complete sense, but not something I would have thought of... |
Hey Bryan, what heads you doing? I didn't see it on the clutch site, but is that aluminum or steel flywheel?
Hang in there bud, she'll be back in no time. Remember what you named her, and that there high maintenance haha. Mines still hurt from Texas, suspensions back, interiors back together, but still got electrical gremlins. Josh (my local LS guru) thinks i lost my MAF, i think that may be the case (i hope) as when i drove to Texas in the GG tour, i/we drove thru that super knarley storm and i believe i got water up in the MAF.....dunno....but sucs not driving it.... |
I'd love to step up to some All Pro, TFS/TEA, or other similar aftermarket castings. The consensus seems mixed as to what the gains from those are over a good CNC port on the L92's though, so I'm trying to decide the best path...
On the clutch, it can be done either way. In talking to Monster, the LT1 twin has a lower moment of inertia than a normal single disc pressure plate. Given that, the clutch will have a feel (in terms of momentum to launch the car) that falls between a steel and aluminum single-disc setup. So the lightweight twin would feel really light in that sense. Given that TOW is a pretty heavy car with me in her, I don't think the lightweight setup is the way to go... Sorry to hear that yours is still having trouble! Electrical gremlins are the worst, so I'm glad I haven't really had any of those with TOW. Hopefully you can get everything sorted before the season starts out there for you west coast guys! |
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Do yourself a big favor.....talk to the machine shop and have them port and smooth the oil passages in the engine block where the oil pump mounts to the block and the front 90 degree drilling that intersects the rear oil galley going to the rear passages to the oil filter ports. Check the oil pan and filter passages and port and smooth these passages too. The oiling system on the LS motor flat out SUCKS! for extended high RPM operation. The 2.00" rod journals are fine....that is the size of the original Small Block Chevy......worked well for many years with a good multistage dry sump system.....rod/main journal sizes can be further reduced as NASCAR has done to minimize oiling system power losses by reducing oiling system demands but, you had better have a good engineer helping with system design. NASCAR made 900HP 9000+RPM motors last for 500+ hard miles of racing with small Honda/IRL rods.....typically 1.88" journals. Frankenstein cylinder heads has one of the better LS3 CNC programs at this time but, don't know how backed up they are for deliveries.....if going aftermarket it's hard to beat the TFS head or MAST LS offerings.
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Just have Tim send you a Finch motor. :hello:
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Talk to West Coast Cylinder heads in Reseda Ca ;)
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Not being able to get ahold of WCCH cost me a great opportunity on a set of All Pro heads. I imagine this is busy season for everyone, but it's frustrating that I'm having so much trouble getting peoples' time to discuss their products... |
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I appreciate that... I can say the person answering the phone was very nice, and she even remembered me from one of my earlier calls because apparently I was very "polite" to her... ;)
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:bang: I just typed up a huge reply with the events of the week, and somehow I lost it!!! :bur2: :bigun2: :twak: :hitaxeonthehead:
Sigh... I'll try again. First, a quick followup on WCCH. Dave did call me Monday, so I think the message got through to them. He was able to answer most of my questions and apologized for the delay. So thanx for the help there... I'll break up my other pieces of the story to make sure I don't lose them again... |
Block
The first big decision of the week I'm blaming on Tim. :) During our recent conversation, he explained to me that it is possible to convert the LS7 to be a wet-sump oiling system instead of a dry-sump system. While certainly I would prefer the dry-sump for any sustained track action, that would be a big chance to TOW at the moment that I'm not sure if the path I want to take. I've been planning to add an Accusump to help protect the engine, so I think I'm going to stick with that direction for now.
That said, once I started thinking about the possibility of the extra cubes from the LS7 block, I've been searching for one. I mentioned earlier that I just missed one locally, but I've managed to find one on the east coast with some searching. This one was a dealer replaced unit that seems to have had some main bearing issues. I will have the block completely machined, including being line-honed, so I don't have any big concerns about that. And with less than 5k miles on it (he says 3k), it should be a great option! I'm definitely taking a chance on this purchase, as I found this guy on a Facebook group of all places. But I'm using Paypal for the purchase for some level of protection. So here's what it started as: http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psc281dfae.jpg After he stripped it down: http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psc2619449.jpg (interesting engine 'stand') And all boxed up for me: http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...ps9f19c30b.jpg It turns out that FedEx and UPS allow up to 150 pounds for ground shipments these days. So that's how it's coming. It's scheduled to arrive on Wednesday. Hopefully this all goes smoothly: I haven't always had the best luck with internet transactions. But so far, so good! |
Cylinder heads and Intake
Next up: cylinder heads...
I finally was able to speak to 3 companies about their offerings. I found a brand new set of LS3 castings with springs and valves that I was all set to purchase and have worked over. This is when I 'outsmarted' myself though... In typical engineer fashion, I created a spreadsheet to track my planned expenses for this little project. I was comparing the costs of buying the LS3 heads and working on them vs. buying an aftermarket casting. My math was telling me that I was only looking at a $500 difference. At that cost, it seems to make sense to just go for the aftermarket castings. I ultimately decided to go with Chris Frank and Frankenstein Racing Heads. Chris has a long history in various forms of racing, one being NASCAR, and he branched out on his own a few years ago. He spent a lot of time discussing my engine, and specifically my two options (at the time) being either the 402 rebuild or the 427 upgrade. We left the conversation with me deciding whether to go with the LS3 or the Trick Flow GenX castings. Based on my math above, I decided it was mostly a no-brainer and selected the TFS castings. Chris described 2 different port and intake valve options which I will select from, based on my displacement choice and desired engine usage/cam selection. He has also offered to tailor the port/valve combination as I need, somewhere between his two standard port selections. Since he starts with a 'head porter' casting, he doesn't have the limitations of the factory LS3 ports already being fairly large. The other thing we discussed was my intake manifold. I'm going to have Chris port match and open up the runners a bit to match the ports on the TFS heads. He has 2 levels of porting he can do: this, which is a port match plus runner cleanup, or a full-on plenum modification to customize to my exact application. The latter is definitely overkill for me, so the port match / cleanup will be perfect. One more nice thing about FRH is that they are located outside of Dallas. So when everything is ready, I can drive up there and pick it all up in person. I'm looking forward to checking out his operation and talking to him in person about some of the other things he does. For example, meet the Chimera billet LSx head: http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...ps2adc071c.gif Now, back to that engineer / spreadsheet comment I made earlier. I realized as I was tweaking the numbers near the end of the week that I screwed up and my math wasn't apples to apples. I almost wish I hadn't caught this, because it means the 'upgrade' to the TFS castings was a bit more of a step than I originally thought. Oops. :\ Oh well, I'm happy with the decision, just a little miffed at myself for missing that detail. |
Crankshaft
I did get some good news on the crankshaft this week. ShafTech tells me that they don't feel like it needs to be turned afterall, that it simply needs to be polished. In addition, they tell me that this shaft WAS induction hardened instead of nitride hardened. This means that it will support several turns if needed and retain its hardness factor.
I'm not sure why Callies themselves didn't tell me this based on the serial number, but I'm glad to hear it. That means that I should have it back in my possession this week instead of the 3-4 week timeframe I was hearing. So, if they get it out on Tuesday, I'll have it Friday. With the block arriving on Wednesday, that means I will be able to get the shortblock started a bit ahead of my previous schedule (the 16th or so). |
Wow you really are finding out how slippery that slope is...
So are you sure you want to spend money to UN-dry-sump the new motor? You are gonna want it at some point (just be honest with yourself :))... so really, why not now vs a band-aid Accusump? I don't think you are trying to make a deadline/event like you were before... Also, are you still married to the single plane due to the shaker? What did Frank the Tank have to say about that? (just curious) Quote:
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Other pieces...
Let's see if I can summarize the rest of the parts and pieces...
Camshaft - again after talking to a few different vendors, I've decided to go with the one who did the cam I currently am running. Geoff Skinner from Engine Power Systems is going to spec the cam using his lobe design and have it cut by Cam Motion. I can't say enough good things about Geoff and his willingness to educate me and evaluate what I want/need. Similar to Chris Frank, he spent a lot of time on the phone with me explaining air flow, pressure differentials, MCSA and why I care, camshaft event timing and its impact on engine performance. I geeked out on this a bit. After multiple conversation, we settled in on a grind that's slightly bigger than the cam I was running, and it should offer very similar manners due to the extra displacement. I'm excited to get this up and running with this new combination of parts! Rocker arms - after even more research, I've decided to upgrade the GM rocker arms with the Harland Sharp trunions. Whether this is a necessary step is up for debate, but it's worth the peace of mind to me on this engine to just go ahead and do it. I've shipped them off and should have them back around the 17th or so I think. HS prices the kits about $20 cheaper than it would be to just have them do the work, so it's a simple decision. Off they go! Lifters - I'm going to replace mine, again for peace of mind, with a set of Morel drop-in styles that will also use the GM lifter trays. Ordering those tomorrow. Pushrods will be ordered once everything goes back together and I can determine the correct length. I mentioned above that I'm going to add an Accusump. I've ordered that up and will work with Eric on getting it mounted. I plan to locate it just in front of the engine on the cross-tube that the sway bar passes through. There is a port on the front of the LS block that is a perfect place to tap into the system, so I'll do that using their electric control valve. I'm going to change the wiring from my Holley HP EFI to enable/disable the valve as needed, meaning that it will enable when the engine is not running (pre-lube) and also when above 2k rpm (when the oil pressure is above the pressure setting of the control valve). Canton agreed that was a good setup. Hopefully that's it other than little things like gaskets, spark plugs, oil, hose and fittings, etc. I did research some aftermarket dry sump systems, specifically the Dailey unit that has the pump directly attached to the pan, but then I smacked myself back to reality for now... :) I am going to replace the clutch as I previously mentioned. I am planning on the Monster Clutch street twin disc that Steve (gernon) is running. He seems to really like it. I need to confirm whether it will work with my current hydraulics though, I'll do that tomorrow. And for the moment I've talked myself out of the Ultimate Headers that I was considering. That is going onto the post-March project list. |
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I'm actually trying to be honest with myself about what I really want to do with TOW. I have some cogs turning in my head about what my next project might be, and if I go that route, TOW wouldn't be the one to see serious track time. That said, I might well still run the Accusump even if I did run a dry-sump, for even more insurance. So if I ever do go that route, I'm not sure I see this as wasted effort at this point... Quote:
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I converted the dry to wet on my LS7.
You need to change the pump and the drive gear and drill hole for the dip stick |
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I really did go back and forth on this, but there was just too much involved in the dry-sump conversion for this car at this point. I give you all permission to :twak: me in a few months if I'm doing this all over again and I have to say I told you so. But hopefully between solving my catch-can issue and adding the Accusump, I'll be in good shape with this setup for what I'm planning to do with it. :) |
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