Optima
 

Chad I autocrossed many a day in 105 heat
changing tires on and off the car before and after
I used to run against a Doctor who had AC in his turbo
car... I would go over and he would barely roll the window
down.. ac blasting... classical music going... I told him
that it was cheating.. he just laughed and rolled the window
back up.. had some fun times running against him

Now if it gets too damned hot I just roll into my f250
and crank up the AC for a few minutes:)

Bob

Bob, that is one good reason to use a tow vehicle instead of driving to all my events :)

Come on! You haven't lived until you've been 160+ with the aerodynamics of a brick! :poke: :) :) :mock:

Dannie, imho the reason you're not seeing the vintage cars out in force is, most know they have no chance of being competitive driving old iron. It's sad to see the genre of cars that built this series dwindling in participation. I think it will continue in this direction until this is just another racing series with late model cars competing. I understand why Optima is doing it this way, they want to sell batteries to the largest audience they can and there's a larger pool of late model cars than vintage cars.

There should be 2 classes, Vintage and Late model. As Tim mentioned, 1992 and back are basically aero bricks compared to 1996-2015 cars.

Aero drag and downforce starts to play a big part of handling at 100 mph and up.

To put in perspective, back in 1969-1970, it took 620HP in a Dodge Daytona (which was very aerodynamic for 1970) to go 200mph and now it only takes ~450hp to go 200mph in a latest NASCAR speedway cup car.

Dont know what's coming for 2016, but they did have GTV (vintage) class, for vehicles 1989 model year or older. So that takes out the old cars vs. modern car argument. It just seem that not many older cars participated this year, and I'm not sure why.

Tu

I hear ya... If someone like Dusold decides to turn up the boost on his Camaro, coming out of turn 11, with 3/4 of a mile and a running start, I bet he can hit that or more!

:eek: :omg: :morepower :brix:

This seems to be a "chicken or the egg first" classic..... My thought is that HAD Classic American Muscle turned out in sufficient numbers at the local events... you might not be seeing the number of late models and imports. It takes quite a few entrants to make these events worthwhile. If you need 70 cars to turn out and only 30 show up -- that's a huge loss.... and that's EXACTLY what we saw the first year or so. Low turnouts of those the series initially catered to. Then what's left?? Open it up and promote it to more entrants...

I don't know that people understand what it takes to put on one of these events. The club I belong to says it cost $60,000 (sixty thousand dollars) to rent Sonoma Raceway and put on a weekend event! That's 120 folks paying $500 for two days just to break even...

I know.... but it's just hard for me to keep my mouth shut.... LOL

Greg, I'm not real sure where you think they catered to vintage cars last year, this basic format/rule set has used since this series started. I know what it costs to do these events trust me. It's their sandbox and they should do what they want since they're footing the bill. In it's current configuration the lightweight AWD cars are going to eventually dominate this event. I'm not sure how you fix it or if they should, but I don't ever see a vintage car being competitive at the invitational ever again.

They only use the class format at regional qualifiers, they don't use that at the invitational in Vegas.

Jay, the aero only matters on the road course it's not really a factor on the auto-x or speed stop.

I have to disagree here. I think its more of a numbers game. There just arent as many of us out there as we'd like to think. As mentioned earlier in this thread about Goodguys autocross participation, (quoted below) just add the cost of attending these events, the stigma of "my car isnt good enough", purchase a helmet, fire extinguisher and other gear, the increased wear and tear on the vehicle, the fear of damage... and you see how the pool of GTV cars shrinks even further.

Before you go off in the direction of what a great value these events are, consider this... Most of the GG autocross participants are paying nothing to autocross. Outside of the Pros/Sponsor cars, most of them are at GG anyway and are doing the autocross just for the heck of it. If they only get to make 4-5 runs a day, that great! They're not seriously racing anyway and it costs them nothing in addition to do it.

Looking at it this way, I understand the numbers. Its going to take some time to build the Pro-touring base to the levels we are expecting at these events. Until then, lets keep the GTV class alive by ensuring the participants' efforts are acknowledged. It takes more to bring a GTV car to the event than any other class. The other classes all start off with performance. Just upgrade tires (or dont) and you're ready. A GTV car is a re-engineered and built car. (on a side note, shouldnt the D&E scores reflect this more? Really... we swap out our suspensions, motors with EFI, cooling and fuel systems, interior functionality and creature comforts, body mods... and we're scored within a single point of a late model with upgraded tires and lowering springs???)

I get what you're saying Tim --- I was really referring to the series beginnings -- when car turnout was actually pretty poor.... which opens the door to finding attendees anywhere you can. If the series took off and was full to the point of having waiting lists of "PT cars".... then we probably might not (might is key here) be seeing all the newer stuff.

I've been attending events all over the country regularly for 6 years, not just usca events. Until a few years ago the participants were largely vintage cars. Since capable drivers started showing up in late model cars and winning the tides have changed in that regard, Karl Dunn, Randy Johnson, Brian Hobaugh, and Chris Jacobs all switched to C5 vettes, why, because they can be more competitive in them. As far as the DE part of the event I think it's stupid and has nothing to do with a racing series, most of the top tier cars have gotten so far away from a real street car that it's a joke to pretend that they are.

Mark my words... the lightweight awd's are going to own this series. I've already moved on from attending these as several of the other "regular attendees" have as well. It just doesn't make economic sense to me to attend to be mid pack since I have double the cost with Deb participating as well. I can run for the fun of it and spend $4700 for my membership for the entire season at VIR, have 20 track days (with a top shelf catered lunch) and get a minimum of 2.5 hours (usually more) of actual seat time and have maybe 10 cars to run with on a 3.25 mile track that is one of the best in the country. That works out to less than $250 a day for both cars. I only have to travel 1 hour, can sleep in my own bed, and eat at home, pretty easy decision for me. I'll save my out of town excursions to hang out with my friends for Goodguys where the savings in entry fees will pay for most of my food and lodging for the trip.

I'm glad to see somebody approaching this topic with a rational cost analysis relative to the cost of regular club-type track days. For autocross time (plus speed-stop, if you don't mind burning up your equipment in the stop box), USCA offers good stuff, so long as you're not paying for the full weekend. As for the track experience, so long as you live within reasonable distance of a track or two, the price (of participating in a USCA event) is just not all that great. Sometimes, people's competitive nature just creates a grotesquely mediocre fight to be king of the dipsticks (there's another, better 16 Candles term, but it would be dirty); when you come to this conclusion, and you're not one of those who's determined to put a dog in the cock fight, you find a more realistic venue for having fun speeding (like a regular track day, which usually offers more track time than most people/cars can take) . . .

Agreed with these points as well. I prefer running track days, it give me more seat time in an event I want to participate. Good Guys is frustrating because the cater to the Pros and you sit around a lot. Local AX is a lot of work all day for 5-6 runs which makes GG better. It's up to each person.

This last weekend I drove in my first Lemons race. You want to talk about getting some track time with competition, it's a pretty good way to do it. I ran the shortest driving stint due to blowing a clutch and having to swap it out but still got 1hour 45min of non stop seat time. Others on my team ran for 2.5-3 hours. Not to mention this was while going head to head with other drivers which was awesome. It was a blast and definitely something I'll do again.

I'm also seriously considering NASA CMC or AI. For the cost to make my 72 competitive in other events I can buy a true NASA race car that's safer than what I have and have a blast. Not saying I won't still compete in other areas, I just don't think I'll be putting a huge effort into it going forward.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...... I'm sorry.... but I've been watching these events - helping at these events - hauled cars to these events.... pimped people to go to these events... I love the people that put them on... and those that participate. It's ALL good car stuff. But then.... I go drive my track cars at a track event.

Yesterday I was prepping one of them for Laguna Seca - after I took the tire rubber off with Mothers 3R (racing rubber remover) - I then got the buffer out to clean up the paint a bit more behind the rear wheels. The whole time I'm cleaning and going over the car with the Adams detailer - I'm thinking to myself - man this car looks great for a race car. I'm pretty sure I paid less for it in total, than some of the cars owners that run these events paid for their paint jobs. So that "what it cost" argument just kills me. Really? Some people pay 4 to 6 grand just for their wheels... and we're discussing what it costs to run your car for a weekend on some of the most famous race tracks in the country?? LOL

Does anyone that runs ANY event ever think about the cost of blowing a motor? A tranny? A rear end? Chewing up a nice set of tires? Oh - how about an off track - or eating a wall?

If 4 or 500 bucks is killing you.... better find a new hobby.

Greg, it's not $4-500 for me, it's $1,000 just for entry fees, then there's food, lodging, and fuel... not hard for it to turn into a $3,000-$5,000 weekend depending on the distance traveled and that's if nothing breaks on the cars. I'm seriously thinking about selling one of our cars and buying a used stock car for track days.

When I started racing at the local dirt track after selling my 67 camaro. I bought the whole car for 6800 ready to race and capable of winning. The driver was not capable. But I had a great time in that deal. Just the repair work from the door to door damage was insane. Plus we raced every other saturday night. It cost like 15 dollars to race as long as you made the A main race the previous weekend. When I redid the engine, the builder told me a full on engine capable of running up front where ever was 35.... I said 35K. He said no...... 3500. I said I will take 2.

Hey -- Tell me about it..... I trailer the big rig a day and a half (at less than 5 MPG) to an event.... burn race gas at $10 a gallon and use 5+ gallons every 20 minute session... A set of Hoosiers will last me about a weekend... Brake pads... Add Sutton's weekend fee (I do that because it's fun and it's like going to driving school every weekend)...

When you add in my shop - back up cars - tractor trailer - I have over a million dollars in support of 3 or maybe 4 track weekends per year.

Ridiculous.... Just shoot me! I'm a moron.

:bigun2: :bigun2: :bigun2: :bang: :snapout:
you asked for it.

I'm going to sell it all shortly..... buy a $1500 GoKart and drive it thru the neighborhood and post YouTube videos. Or maybe go Trash Can racing with Payton King and Ron Schwarz...

Mission accomplished......:G-Dub: :welcome3:

Ousci
 

Greg,
Where in the world are you buying race gas at $10 a gallon
Cost me $19 a gallon for 110 or 112 leaded.. and yes I also
burn 5 gallons a session but love it

Bob

Wow your getting hosed. I bought a 55 gallon drum for like 450 delivered.

I buy 5 gallon pales for 54 bucks.

Okay -- can you even do math??? 54 divided by 5 = $10.80 per gallon


Oh wait --- you were referring to Bob paying $18 or 19.... yeah -- that's at the Pantera only station. HAHAHAHAHA

Yep!


"Hey! You know what you need...... "

I get what Tim and Gerno are saying when you compare pure cost to seat time, none of these events ever paper out. It has been that way since I attended the first inaugural Run To The Coast in SoCal.

Open track days are always far cheaper and offer more seat time. So there has to be something more a non podium finisher gets out of it. For me, its the chance to run with a much larger vintage turnout than open track days give. Run in the best organized series and yes be able to compare my own driving skills and car's capability to the best in our area of the hobby. I know I'm not going to win and thats ok. I just want to see how close I can get! For me that is fun, but I also don't attend events USCA across the country. I attend the ones in my back yard.

I too would like to run Lemons or Chump or some other race series. It would be much more competitive, safer and *cheaper* than what I do with my 68 Camaro. But it would have to be in addition to, not instead of, my camaro because I love running vintage iron on a race track.

I disagree with Gerno's comments about SCCA autocross though. Gerno, how in the world you think goodguys is easier or more fun than SCCA blows my mind. Goodguys, you are there for 9 hours and if you aren't a pro get either 4 or 5 runs in a single day. I attended an SCCA autocross yesterday. I was there for less than 5 hours (including time to set up, walk the course, work etc.), got 8 runs on a HUGE and challenging autocross course all for $55. I'll take that any day over the goodguys events.

Optima
 

Wish we could get 8 runs in a day.. 3 for SCCA and
5 for American Autocross...

Race gas.. we only have a few guys left around here that
I know of that sell it because of all the forms they need to
fill out for leaded gas.. most gave up.. guess that is why
the pricing is so high

Bob

I think it may have to do with the local group and perhaps the weather. Typically we only get 5 runs locally and lately the courses haven't been the best in my opinion. Last event 2 of the corners had light poles placed exactly where the car could spin in a corner so I wasn't willing to go all out there. Not that I had a choice because my fuel rail broke but still. It also gets hot as hell in Austin during the summer. Working the track shagging cones blows. I also have red hair and get fried by the sun. Not saying I don't enjoy running the car, I guess I'm just lazy and really hate picking up cones. Yes, guess I am a pansy... :snapout:

Since Steve and I run in the same local events, I can back up what he is saying. We don't get local SCCA events, but our local group is very active at the regionals and nationals. Typically, we arrive by 8:00, are there until 4:00, and get 4-5 runs (I've never had more than 5). There are 3 run groups, with about 40-50 cars in each. We work one shift, have one off, and run the 3rd. I think every one I have attended had me running the first group (which sucks, as the track is generally dirty), and working the third, meaning I'm there all day. And it costs $35 - 45 depending on the track.

By comparison, I had 15 or 16 runs at the last GG event (Friday/Saturday, I didn't drive on Sunday when I could have gotten even more), and I missed one session while I was repairing the car. I don't have to work the course, I get to socialize with more like-minded people (ie: vintage cars), and I have the whole GG show to wander around if I want (time permitting). Oh, and I pay $45 for the 3 days.

It sounds like our local events are somewhat opposite experiences...

I don't enjoy going to our local auto-x events, but I need seat time if I want to improve. I really enjoy the GG events, but I've only ever attended the ones in Fort Worth. I wish we had more that we could get to easily, but no other one is less than a full day's drive that I am aware of.

Back to the subject of OUSCI. I've spent the last week putting serious thought into whether I could attend multiple events next year. COTA would be local, but I have a conflict that weekend that I may have to miss COTA for. I can't believe I could even think that, but it's true. NOLA is close enough that I would probably find a way to get there. The next 3 I have looked at are 18+ hour drives for me. That's 2 days of driving each way, 2 days there, meals, hotels, gas, entry fees. Oh, and I need a vehicle to tow with and a trailer. :) It would take a big commitment in time and cash to make those...

I'm not knocking the events at all, I'm just not fortunate enough to live in a place where I can get to many. I don't think the $500 is unreasonable for the event, given the multiple aspects which take place (road course, speed stop, auto-x). I believe we had 5 20-25m sessions on the road course which is more than I generally get at local events. I had 12 or 13 auto-x laps, which again is more than I typically get (and I didn't have to work the course!), and I had 10 or 11 speed stop laps. I think that's pretty decent.

I have yet to run my first autocross in my Chevelle, as it's almost built, and winter is coming fast. You guys here make a guy like me second guess the entire autocross weekend with all the boohooing going on here. I learned a long time ago that Motorsports at any level is costly, if you wish to compete. I spent enough money racing asphalt late models to pay my house off...twice. Greg's comment on the $4-500 is spot on.
Hopefully this thread doesn't de-rail someone's plans of hitting a local track weekend, and actually enjoying it. I know I'm sure looking forward to mine!

Sure does. And there are new things to talk about each year too.

I think (and hope) just the opposite! People should explore all their local offerings and see what they like and where the "value" is for them, and not just financial value. The examples of Chad (Socal) and Steve and Bryan (Texas) illustrate that pretty well above.

It might be just what they thought, or it might surprise them.

Then there's still that pro touring thing where people just drive around on roads and stuff.... :idea:

I for one can not wait to experience as much seat time at as many events as possible. I have been building my car specifically for autocross after seeing the event at a goodguys show a few years back.

I know there will be ups and downs to each groups events, but I take that as par for the course. Maybe I'm too "green" to understand all negativity. I just want to drive my car fast :)

I don't know why you'd find a great discussion to be "negative" -- this is how forums work - people come on and discuss stuff. I haven't read anything negative except for people explaining why they like one format over another. Usually people learn from these explanations and discussions. Even the promoters can come on and see what people have to say about their events and sometimes it leads to changes and improvements. That's not negative.

Optima
 

I have come from running karts, to dirt bikes to autocrossing and then
Open Tracking..... I do like the open tracking but because
of my Optima invite a few years back I got hooked on autocrossing
again...
I have said it once before you can run an autocross many times and
it is almost impossible to have a perfect run.. it reminds me of dirt
biking... make quick decisions and trying to get it right quickly

On a track you can go there time and time again and finally
figure things out... in autocross the course is gone after the
day you run it. I really like that challenge

I am also learning how to adjust the car somewhat
although mine still has a ways to go

If you want to run your car and have some fun then
autocrossing is a good start.. hell running the car anywhere
hard in a controlled environment is great
But really for beginners it is a great place to try your car out

Best event I have ever done is the Virgina City Hill Climb
5.1 miles 27 turns on a closed road running 125mph plus
with no guard rails or rules.. just hang on!!!

Bob

This leads back to the bigger things get, the harder they are to make everyone happy.

We had 174 timed entries in our last KC Region SCCA event last month whereas we typically have 100-110. I was pretty certain it was going to be a disaster because we have to be cleaned up and off of our site at 5 pm sharp, no exclusions. The chair, co-chair and a few of the "leaders" of the Region did a fantastic job though and the whole event ran pretty smooth and we still got 4 runs each but we missed out on our typical parade lap.

Just growing a 1 day event from 100 to 175 entries was a huge undertaking that took planning and a lot of extra work, but the coffers at the end of the day were almost double full from where they typically are. This is how it works...

As an entrant, I prefer the light entry days were we get 5 or 6 runs a day but as a club, I see the benefits of higher numbers. It sounds like the SCCA Regions all have much different Solo events based on how the Regions are run and the number of entrants...it's interesting to me to here reports back from how other regions do things and what the results are.

I used to get asked why I was building a car and sinking X amount of dollars into it, just to load it on a trailer, drive 13hrs and make 10 runs in a weeks time.....I still don't have a good answer......it's Bonneville man!
Some people feel the need to drive across the country to go to Hot August Nights or Sturgis or....whatever.
My friends and I have done four of these events, Pahrump, Laguna, Portland (lame) and Thunderhill. We share the fuel cost, kinda, lodging and the driver pays the entry. Every one of them has been a complete blast, not just the track time but the other folks involved and the time spent with friends.

We'll continue doing the events closeish to home and see what happens next year, I can guarantee we'll be having a blast no matter what cars/classes are running.

:cheers: