Thanks for the info. Wilwood told me their manual setup put equal pressure front and back. Anyhow I am going to put the booster in today, I hope then mock up the MC so I can see how to a new fuel line into the rails and hopefully not have to move the clutch reservoir as well. :bang: :bang: :bang:

Despite what Wilwood said...
 

Here it is in Wilwood spec sheet in the link below:

"The stroke is set at 1.10” with a volume ratio of 2:1 between the primary and secondary chambers"

http://www.wilwood.com/mastercylinde...temno=260-9439

Semper Fi !

NOW the sales pitch LOL
 

If you still can't find your happiness after this next wave of mods, give us a call as we can make that bad boy stop like a fighter jet being snatched up by a tail hook coming in for a landing on an aircraft carrier. (Interestingly mentioned to us by a few actual fighter pilot customers running our systems in their muscle cars over the years).

Study all of the firewall and steering column support structure mods, and also your clutch MC positioning. If it's going to be the surgery I believe it will be to install the vacuum booster, you may as well strongly consider our bolt in special manual to power brake conversion package to save you all of the hassle. It is as slender as the master cylinder is on the engine side, clears all known clutch combinations, and in your application would bolt down from the engine side of the firewall as a true plug n play without any mods at all what so ever.

As a general rule, manual brakes will typically provide 700-1000 PSI of line pressure. A factory C3 vacuum booster will typically add a couple / three hundred PSI to that (given high levels of engine vacuum feeding it). If you have chosen to obtain and install a "mini booster" you will find exactly that: "mini boost" output. By comparison, our hydraulic assist system will *****cat around at normal stock type levels during regular driving maneuvers, but is capable of easily punching out 1600 - 1800 PSI on demand when called upon, "stopping you on a dime and giving you two nickels change"!

:popcorn2:

Wouldn't a 2:1 ratio be 66.6% / 33.3% instead of 72/25? Thus closer to the original ratio you quoted?

Regardless, that is interesting information. Do you know if other aftermarket MC's are also built this way? I use a GM unit, but it's good knowledge to have for the future...

Thanx!

Most all aftermarket MC's
 

I have found that most all aftermarket MC's are typically C3 Vette MC's in disguise (once torn down and carefully scrutinized). My math? Ok, it is my kryptonite, and good lord it looks like I'm wrong. Many many years ago (about twenty or so), I burette tested the CC outputs of various MC's x 1" of exact input stroke and got into all kinds of math... Over the next further years I actually didn't particularly chuck the math, but instead went into real world testing (less some of the math) Tobin at Kore3 is my go to guy for math these days LOL (caliper piston sizes x MC bore size x mechanical pedal leverage) The variable output of the hydroboost unit's can't seem to be exactly calculated though due to other variables such as PS pump max relief pressures and such. I have found that an installation with a Wilwood MC of exact same bore size (Wil-260-8856 with 1.125" bore) versus a C3 Vette MC (with the same 1.125" bore size)(as a back to back swap out) required considerably different inline adjustable proportioning valve settings. With the Wilwood in place, we could run the adjustable prop valve just about wide open (knob screwed all the way in), while swapping in the C3 Vette MC required considerable pressure reduction adjustments to the rear brakes = my type of real world "math" indicating a higher rear port / rear brake output with the C3 Vette MC as compared to the Wilwood. Hmmm...

As a tail hooker myself I understand the I hope I locked my harness before the cable stops me on the carrier. Thankfully flying harriers on the ship it was better to stop and land. I might give you a tomorrow as the booster is not going to fit as nicely as I thought it might. I am running the LS3 with the C4 rack and pinion.

My experience with a Wilwood master would lead me to the same conclusion. I had my proportioning valve wide open except for at time when I had an aggressive autocross pad on the rear. With a Hawk HP Plus or other less aggressive street pad, I always felt like I could use a little more rear brake.

With that being said, the car stopped very well with a manual 1" bore and I had 335mm R888's out back so they needed way more brake than the average car. The pedal effort was pretty firm.

Here are the details of the C3 manual brake conversion system
 

Click on this link for an expanded view:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/3007.jpg

Take a good close look for reference. You will see I have designed this particular system to place the brake assist unit on center with the top two mounting points where your master cylinder is currently mounted. The C3 factory manual brake master cylinder design has two studs protruding from the firewall with the MC hole in the firewall on center of these two bolts, so the top two holes in the billet mounting plate on this brake unit will fasten there to the factory MC studs. Now 2.885" lower from the top two master cylinder mounting points are two 5/16" bolts going into your firewall / steering column support structure. This is where the lower two fastener points are in this manual to power brake conversion system. This system is angled downward just enough to stay out of hood clearance issues. This system is actually vastly easier to install than the poor guys that have a factory power brake system, as they have to fight four vacuum booster mounting nuts out from under the dash to unbolt the booster (then schedule a chiropractic appointment the day after). By contrast, you get to hit "the big red easy button" as all of your work is going to be pleasant because everything bolts from the engine compartment side nice and clean and simple. The only under dash diving you will have to do is establish the connection to the brake pedal (with this system providing a design that allows you set the brake pedal height wherever you may want it by spinning the brake assist unit's brake pedal rod in or out of the horseshoe clevis). This system will also have you use your existing manual brake connection point on the pedal, so you will definitely have to go with the larger 1.125" bore MC (Wilwood 260-8556P or Wilwood 260-8556BK) if you want to go that route. Or? We have a few other MC's you could look at available through us. Note that we do outsource the Wilwood MC's for customers upon request as needed, matching Summit Racing's Pricing at $239.95:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-260-8556p

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-260-8556-bk

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/mastercylinders.html

Your LS3 pump and C4 rack are a very popular proven combination, so this will also be simple to connect the PS plumbing. Here is a general schematic of the plumbing for basic reference (courtesy of Concept One):

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/PShoserouting.JPG

Here is the hose assembly tutorial:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/hosetech.html

For advanced system installation reading (note that "Photobucket ransom" has caused many images to no longer appear):

http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/8...es-w-Hydratech

Also, scroll down to the bottom of this (old) web page to see the C3 Vette feedback:

http://hydratechbraking.com/testimonials_old/

We also have three different levels of preparation available - scroll further down this web page to see the details and expandable photography:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/products.html

I suggest you give my guy Jim Petty a call to discuss:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/contact.html

I apologize, but I am not available for telephone calls (just way too much going on during the day to get involved with 15 - 45 minute phone calls (which is why I have Jim Petty). I have sent him a link to this forum discussion so that he knows what we have been talking about.

There IS a difference – Thank you for choosing Hydratech!

Thanks

I had nothing but trouble with my 7/8" Wilwood set-up also.......couldn't get any pressure or fluid flow to the rears........Bought another master and the same issue.......(these were probably the masters in the recall).....Bought a Detroit Speed power set-up and 15 minutes later my brake issues were gone.....Just Say'in.....

Ken

Paul I called the line today no answer and sent and email missed ya. I will try to contact you tomorrow or call me at the info I gave in the info, thanks

Strange thing about Monday's
 

Hi Kevin - Sorry about that... Monday's are either very quiet (with Jim playing card games on the PC bored stiff) *OR* crazy on fire. Today happened to be the crazy on fire Monday - Jim was totally overwhelmed = sorry that you couldn't get through appropriately. I saw your e-mail that you sent in, and forwarded it to Jim with instructions to give you a jingle. Is there a best time for you to take a call? Please note that Jim is only in the office from 10am to 3pm CST (live local time clock on our contact us web page).

:flag2:

Great I will call again as I am in VA. Busy is good

All good info.....


I have a couple (3 and building a 4th) race cars.... ran Thunderhill this weekend - Wilwood 1" MANUAL master cylinder... Wilwood 6 piston front - 4 piston rears.....

I'm running down into turn one at 135 to 140 mph..... and then have 14 more turns to negotiate after that - lap after lap. Never needed anything other than my foot and I can stand the car on it's nose... I don't even run an aggressive pad. I prefer to buy cheap pads over Spec 37 rotors.

I have the bias set so when I'm threshold braking -- I know I've hit that point when the rears chatter (hop) and the ass is in the air and the nose is digging a hole - that way I know to let up just a bit.... it's a "telltale".

Jim gave me a call and very helpful, thanks

I had the Wilwood 15/16ths as you know and could not stop very well at 40 mph. I have another manual 15/16ths, new ready to go so I'm thinking that maybe try that first then Hydratech or bite the bullet now.

I had the same set up on my car. It was great on the road course.

The street is a different ball game. Cold pads and way less friction.

Rule out your issues - install the other MC you have on hand
 

I do actually indeed suggest that you pop the other MC in to see what happens. It's already sitting there, so why not try it? I am a mega gearhead, and would definitely install the alternate MC myself to see what may happen before moving forward with anything else, especially as easy as it is to do a back to back MC swap out (providing you don't have to get into brake line port adapters or any changes with the brake lines).

TIP: Absolutely positively thoroughly bench bleed the MC first (off of the car literally in a bench vise, of course, right?) - view the links below. I strongly suggest the port plug method as opposed to the old school hose method for MC bench bleeding (it's vastly more conclusive than the hose method). Once that is done: Air does not go down brake lines when a MC is disconnected. As such, place a big fat towel underneath the MC to catch the brake fluid, disconnect the lines from your current MC, cap the brake lines with some generic vacuum caps for the moment. Yank the (dripping) current MC out (plug the ports quickly if possible to prevent the mess). Bolt the new MC in with the bleeding port plugs still in place. Now yank the little vacuum caps off of the brake lines and plug them into the new MC as quickly as you can, BUT do not tighten them down all of the way. Why? If you wait for both loosely connected lines to start steadily dripping, this has bled this part of the braking system out, not requiring you to get into a full on four wheel brake bleed session again (unless you believe there could be air still strapped somewhere in the system).

http://hydratechbraking.com/braketech1.html

http://www.hydratechbraking.com//ima...BleedSheet.JPG

Let us know how the alternate MC behaves - we're all here to help!

:military:

Major differences...
 

Street braking versus road course / track braking are definitely very very different scenarios. Track only / mostly? Fits Greg Welds comments, thoughts, and suggestions. Street use? That's a whole different world. Scrubbing off high speeds - say 150 down to 90 for a turn speaks more of the thermal capacity of the brakes. Street braking from 70 to zero is significantly different arena speaking much more so of instant clamping force available.

Here is a fun video:

Super Chevy Magazine exclaims, "In our history of vehicle testing, we have never had a car stop in this short of a distance!"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=CpUy9wcAtJY


http://www.classicperform.com/Projec...rojectNova.htm

Paul what is the main difference between yours and CPP's Hydra stop? Thanks

pm sent

Damn - now you've hit a real sore spot with me (really pisses me off to no end)
 

Hi Kevin - man, this is like a "let's not even go there" topic - makes me so damn angry I am trying hard to stay calm and composed writing this post. :bur2: As some know, and others unfortunately don't, CPP used to be a dealer of our systems years ago. We then discovered that they had started copying our systems - DOH! That discovery immediately led to us to cutting off supply to them, and then removing them as a dealer of our systems. This has actually been discovered as CPP's "Modus Operandi" also affecting MANY others in the aftermarket industry.
CPP even tried to order in one of everything Tobin at Kore3 produces so that they could copy his stuff too! Unreal...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_operandi

*The CPP systems are cheap low end offshore copies.* Here is an e-mail I have circulated to some of our dealers:

BEWARE!!! Scroll all the way down and check out the link. Beware and watch out for the new Chinese crap hydroboost units hitting the market! CPP is using them, and Lord knows who else at this point. Apparently the patent rights must have run out and I’m sure Bosch is having conniption fits over this. We will continue to use genuine Bosch produced units regardless of how much this new flood of Chinese junk undercuts us… I need to find a way to identify the Chinese junk – casting differences or something we can point out to our customers so that they are aware. Tempted to have somebody order one in from CPP and have it shipped over here so that I can examine it – maybe just order one in from Atech / Summit… Check it out thoroughly and then just ship it back – yuck!

http://www.fiverbrakebooster.com/pro...er-Series.html

We have had many many confused customers calling us for tech support on what they thought were systems that we produced, finding in the conversations that they are actually dealing with a CPP "Hydro Stop" POS. The customers are shocked to find out that these are no longer Hydratech produced items, and despite all of this we still generally help them out best we can (despite this ugly scenario). They call complaining of improper assembly, parts not fitting, systems not operating properly. The other calls are how come I was at a car show and the guy parked next to me had a system that looked vastly better than my installed setup. Needless to say, we ask them did the other guys system say "HYDRATECH" on it? And what does your system say on it? They then get pissed off in the knowledge that they were somewhat hoodwinked into thinking that they were getting / have installed a Hydratech system. Some callers have also been really pissed off to find out that their "CPP Show Stopper" is just an unprepared / raw brake assist unit with nothing more than a chromed accumulator slip cover installed on the brake unit, a cheap copy of our billet firewall mounting plate, and one of their MCPV-1 MC's installed. So comparing apples to (rotten) apples, take a look at our three different levels of preparation for the details - you will clearly see that we do incredibly more with any level of preparation of our systems than anybody else in the industry using only genuine Bosch production brake assist units and only genuine high end Aeroquip power steering plumbing - scroll further down this web page to review:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/products.html

While CPP has copied some of our systems, they have only copied a few of them. We have over 300+ highly specialized systems in our production line up. I can assure you that they do not have coverage for your factory manual brake C3 Vette...

Now off to mix up a Long Island Tea and calm down!

:guns:

Dug this 25 year old thing out from under the plexiglass top layer of my tool box...
 

Thanks Paul I did not know the history. You have been great advise as all of you on the site, many thanks.

I wouldn't own CPP ANYTHING..... this is not a "quality" company -- this is a cheap junk company. The stuff is sold purely on "price".

Paul just called to order your Hydratech set up but you had already closed.

Ouch I was going to trade my 15/16ths MC for their 1 1/8th.

Could you even imagine how pissed I was at the 2010 SEMA show...
 

Could you even imagine how utterly INCREDIBLY pissed I was at the 2010 SEMA show when I saw a brake unit that I built with my own two hands on display in the CPP booth, where CPP had the absolutely incredible gall to remove the Hydratech billet firewall mounting plate and replace it with their CPP plate on this display unit? On *MY* brake unit? That takes some serious bad faith and is one of the nastiest things anybody has ever done to me in the industry:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/imag...CPPDISPLAY.jpg

Then of course Jim Reis stopped taking my calls and responding to my e-mails...

DOWNRIGHT EVIL EXISTS OUT THERE - please, let's not even dare go into the discussion of what ****** Hydraulics did to me a year or so before this... See? hell, it's even a censored word here on Lat-G.

I will call you today

Paul I hope to see my Hydratech system soon. Everyone who has commented on this site many thanks. I will let you know how it works out.

These systems work awesome.... you won't be disappointed.

Ok, so now I'm catching some flack about listing the CPP MCPV-1 MC on our website
 

:happy23: All of this hammering of CPP in this thread has all of a sudden led to me receiving flack about why we still carry this MC:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/mastercylinders.html

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/mast...rs/imag017.jpg

This is a "legacy" item that we carried back when all was still "well" with our CPP dealings. We do actually have some of these on our shelves despite "everything". Why? It is actually because of customer demand for the item (just like the various Wilwood MC's we also have sitting on our shelves). I will note that this particular MC hasn't led to any trouble (surprisingly) with our customers over the years.

Now here is the beautiful one with the built in adjustable proportioning valve that I'd *really* prefer to put in place of the current CPP MC listing:

http://ssbrakes.com/i-10092042-bille...p-a0474-5.html

http://ssbrakes.com/images/F54518710.jpg

BUT when we mention $540 bucks for just the MC, the people on the other end of the phone go quiet for a moment trying to absorb paying this amount of money instead of the $199.95 for CPP MC....

All said and done, we can outsource this really really nice vastly superior SSBC MC for our customers on demand, though most opt out and choose the CPP version instead (despite my hammering of CPP). That is why it is still listed...

:bitchslap:

I exchanged my CPP 15/16 for a 1 1/8th.

Lucky
 

Hi Kevin - normally our lead times on the base models are in the 3-4 week range. We had a previous order for another customer that the build department accidentally "double built" a few weeks ago. I ran across it today by chance happenstance just sitting there bagged and tagged on a secondary bench and said OMG! This is the model that Kevin needs! Soooooo....

From: HYDRATECH BRAKING SYSTEMS
Tracking Number: 1Z6878F50397741825
Ship To: Kevin XXXXXXXXX
UPS Service: UPS GROUND
Number of Packages: 1
Scheduled Delivery: Monday - 10/30/2017

Thinking of Tom Petty's recent passing, I sang to myself "even the losers get lucky sometimes" (certainly not speaking of you just to be clear)

Remember, call my guy Jim Petty with any questions you may have at any point, as you have our full support!

:gitrdun:

Short / Late Model GM Pushrod
 

Now remember, you ordered the Hydratech model #3507 with the late / short MC pushrod design:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/images/pushrod%20ID.JPG

Soooo, be sure to insert the spacer bullet / plug / slug into the deep hole on your master cylinder to convert it for use with the late model GM short pushrod design on your brake unit, otherwise you will have no brakes (!)

Most all aftermarket MC designs are of this "convertible" design - the MC is provided with the GM early spec deep pushrod hole, though the MC is also typically supplied with the "conversion bullet / slug / plug" that converts it for use with the GM late / short MC pushrod interface. Note that we do not supply this item - it is supplied with the aftermarket brake master cylinder. You are using a 1 1/8" CPP MC, right? These are typically the "convertible" spacer bullet type design. I suggest you bench bleed the MC first with the deep hole, which helps to keep your screwdriver from accidentally popping out of place and gouging the MC piston bore. Once the MC is fully bench bled, then you put a dab of grease on the front of the bullet and push it into the deep MC pushrod hole (to help make sure it doesn't accidentally fall out at any point while your handling it during installation onto the face of the brake assist unit). SSBC has an instruction sheet that discusses and shows the installation of the spacer bullet in their MC's for general reference:

https://static.summitracing.com/glob...-1-2-3-4-5.pdf

So now we'll all sit back and watch how this system installation goes for you - definitely keep us posted. If all goes according to the plan, you will have a big fat smile on your face here shortly!

:popcorn2:

Thanks Paul I appreciate it. I am using the CPP 1 1/8th short stroke MC. Just waiting for it to arrive as well. Thanks Kevin

My Hyrdatech unit arrived today and looks great. Hope to have time this weekend and get it done.

The magic black box
 

Hi Kevin - I'm glad to hear that you are pleased with what you have pulled out of the "magic black box" - heck, that's just our base model :D

Keep us posted - fire off any comments you may have good or bad, as all feedback is important (whether I like it or not), as it helps with the continuous evolution of our systems. If it takes you more than 15 minutes to bolt it to the firewall, then it's time for you to retire your wrenches (!)

:thumbsup:

When should I bleed the brakes, I did not see that in the instructions. I thought you said before I hook up the system's hoses.

Bleed just like any other car
 

Hi Kevin - bleed the brakes just like you would with any other car - ENGINE OFF. This means that you can bleed the brakes before you even hook up the power steering line set. If you are going to bleed the brakes before hooking up the PS line set, place a towel under the brake unit as it will weep PS fluid out of the ports (as it has been fully dyno tested and is currently full of PS fluid). Note that the one major difference in a hydroboost system is that the brakes will be about a solid inch lower while the system is powered down versus when it is powered up (engine running). I personally prefer to have the PS system lines connected up and the preliminary fill / steer right and left procedure done before brake bleeding - you can even fire the engine up and check for proper power steering operations, but please DO NOT attempt brake bleeding with the system powered up (engine running).

http://hydratechbraking.com/braketech1.html

Here is the statement located in our instructions:

*IMPORTANT! NEVER APPLY THE BRAKES WHILE THE MASTER CYLINDER IS REMOVED, OR YOU MAY DESTROY THE BRAKE ASSIST UNIT BY POSSIBLY OVEREXTENDING THE POWER BRAKE UNIT’S OUTPUT PISTON OUT OF THE PRECISION BORE THAT IT OPERATES IN!

Having the MC installed is the safety stop / travel limiter to prevent this from happening. Imagine a piston popping to far out of its cylinder bore in an engine block (!)

*Perform brake bleeding procedures with the engine off for best results.

You may also dramatically misunderstand what you are feeling with the system bled and the brakes powered up (engine running) at first. I suggest you place the vehicle on a hoist or jack stands, place the vehicle into gear to get the rear tires spinning, then apply the brakes just enough to overcome engine torque of any kind, as this will give you the best idea as to how (little) you actually have to apply the brakes to stop the vehicle. Some people just blaze down on the brake pedal not understanding what they are feeling while the vehicle is sitting still, building 1600 PSI of line pressure thinking that something is weird / wrong (that is until they actually hit the streets!).

Scroll down to the bottom of this old webpage again for reference with the C3 Vette customer's feedback - he completely misunderstood what he was feeling in his brake response at first:

http://hydratechbraking.com/testimonials_old/

:gitrdun: