John, I can take care of that for you. :thumbsup:

Please do not argue the dangerous part, as you don't have a leg to stand on. You're doing it on public roads, therefore you are dangerous and wreckless, end of story.

Flooring it on an on-ramp with no traffic? Absolutely, do it often. Up to 150 mph? Absolutely never, have to be an idiot to think this is normal behavior and not dangerous.

Oh, by the way, you say you're going to start doing roadracing and this won't be on the street. That's perfect, but there's not a track out there that will let you try this without a roll cage and all the safety equipment, so be prepared and add it into your budget. I do not know how you can run 10's without one either, but for one pass until they kick you off the track I can see it.

One last item, ZR rated tires are not made to go 200 mph on a high speed sustained run.

Good info for you coming now, so hopefully you read it and get the point. The safety equipment shows up in every post, so do not ignore it.

Jody

You have yet to say anything about racing other then your blasts down the freeway, and how you can achieve higher speeds. Jody said the same thing, you didn't correct him. Going though the gears on a 400hp car or less is quite a bit different then going though the gears on a car as fast as yours is. You obviously don't have the responsibility to use your car correctly. It's not built for this kind of speed. Do you know most rims on the road today are not designed for this speed? Bonneville cars, all have steel wheels and are rated for the speeds they try to acheive. Your tires, might be rated for it, but dont count on it, not for a sustained run. You have no cage of any kind?? Yeah real smart and real safe. Any asshole can stick in a 1000hp motor and say I want to go 200mph, but you completely fail to understand what it takes. Let alone dragging down the street in a car like yours. And no, I never went down the street full blast with a 1000hp car going though the gears. There is a place and time for everything, but you have no idea what time that is. That alone makes you irresponsible and wreckless, and combine this with stupidity and you have a lethal combination. What part of this do you fail to understand? What part of this is not wreckless?

Z-Rated tires are not even close - 146 MPH I believe. Z is "above" 146, but you dpon't know how much, so that means only 146 MPH.

Highest rating is Y - which is above 186, but they will never tell you how much above 186, so you can only assume 186 out of them.

Speed rating tests are a bit scary as well. If I remember correctly, they run the tires for 30 seconds at a time in 5 MPH increments (or actually KPH which is why we have 186 etc) and if it lives there it is rated for the speed.

Last time we were starting to rebuild I had gotten five different tires to have tested at 220 MPH and they were to be run for three hours or failure (whichever first), with temp reading data logged. Also some other tests were to be done. We hoped to see temp spikes before failure or identify characteristics to see precursors to failure. I purchased infra red temp sensors to mount on the car in each wheel well with on dash displays so for the specific tires we found to be best, we would have some warning before it failed - readouts are programmeable to indicate green, yellow and red conditions. There are very few tire monitoring systems that update quickly enough to be useful and they start at about $20K.

If you are serious about doing this - safely - this should give you an idea of the lengths we go to. I would also recommend running nitrogen.

Re: your driveshaft you need to calculate the RPM given your trans, tire size and rear gear ratio at the target speeds. Also, I would seriously consider at least an aluminum shaft as rotational mass can be an issue with the RPM's - unless you can go and get a NASCAR quality steel shaft.

One thing to keep in mind that many have learned the hard way - it's no small task to have a car that fast that is not single purpose built. Can be done, but many have failed trying.

John Buscema
XV Motorsports
www.xvmotorsports.com

What gear were you in at top speed?

Scott,
Check your email

Three videos in separate emails

John Buscema
XV Motorsports
www.xvmotorsports.com

Car would run in 5th.

Was set up to shift into 6th at redline running at 215 MPH.

Started making next round of changes to do just that, but never made it back out there again.

John Buscema
XV Motorsports
www.xvmotorsports.com

A few thoughts for you. Having actually done this, learned from people I respected that had been at it longer than me and also seen some people die or get badly hurt, at an absolute minimum you need:

1. A cage - at least 6-point welded in
2. A REAL Racing seat - I've seen stock ones collapse
3. Seat mounted to the cage
4. 5 or 6 point harnesses properly mounted
5. Helmet and full driving suit
6. Fire system
7. Fuel cell - a real one w/ a kevlar bladder
8. Battery box (I've seen these get tossed 50 yards or so from crashes)
9. Window nets or arm restraints
10. Engine restraint
11. Was just starting when I was racing but wouldn't do it w/o now is a HANS or similar device.

Window nets or arm restraints are very important because in a crash you are a rag doll and unless there is a net or restraints your arms can end up outside the window when it is flipping/rolling. I preferred nets, because they have the added benefit of keeping debris OUT of the passenger compartment.

If you REALLY want to do this you need to:

1. Get the car safe
2. Get the car to handle
3. Start working on aero - you will never go straight to 200 MPH safely take steps
4. Get an engine package and driveline that will survive
5. Get some seat time at lower speeds

Number 4 takes much more than you will ever think
No way I'd be trying a gear vendors unit for this
With your turbo setup your biggest challenge will be heat soak running at WOT for extended periods

re: #5 going from 185 to upper 190's and above was a learning experience and took me a while to be totally relaxed at those speeds.

Re: quick ratio steering - it's almost irrelevant as you hardly turn the wheel at all taking a turn at those speeds. In theory it might be beneficial not to run a quick ratio box, but there are much more important areas to spend your money on. Also, if your plan is to go that fast, you can ultimately save money by building it for that the first time and swap less parts later.

John Buscema
XV Motorsports
www.xvmotorsports.com

good reading
 

:cheering:

Why would a Gear vendors not work??

Also, I do run a Dennys aluminum MMC shaft that is rated for this. I believe he said critical speed is 8100 with the lenght I am at and almost 9000 or so with a shorter length if I go Gearvendors instead of a 4l80. My concern with a 4l80 is the 4th gear being able to handle full power after I make the shift into 4th. I can limit power going into 4th, but then I want to be able to go back to full power.

Comp TA ZR tires were rated to 187+ I thought??

I will fabbing up a 6 point roll bar when I get time, Boy I sure wish this motor did'nt make so much power, life would be so much easier! I do have to say though, you would never guess you were doing 150 in the car, it gets theres SO fast and smooth and then WHAM your bouncing of the rev limiter! I really kind of miss the excitment of going through the gears at a normal rate that allows you to anticipate going faster. Now it is just floor it and, bam, your there, it takes a little fun out of it, you know.

Starting to get some awesome input!!

I'd get a trans that is rated for the power and do it right. An external overdrive unit running at these speeds is not something you want to think about - one more thing that can become an issue. Not sure how much additional HP you will be eating up w/ that unit and heat is an issue. So if you need to run a trans cooler, you would now need to run two for both units and figure how to package them while minimizing drag.

ZR, I'm assuming is 'Z' rated. Only 'Y' is 186 and this only means they tested to 186, not 200 MPH. Plain old 'Z' is only rated to 146.

You mention roll-bar, not sure if just a typo, but you need a cage for this, not a bar.

John Buscema
XV Motorsports
www.xvmotorsports.com

Nitro -
With all of the fabricating you did on your car and your intelligent posts and helpful replies, you earned the respect of many members. I think your thread here has pretty much ruined that. If you want to kill yourself, fine. You ask for advice, yet have the answers, fine. You tell us "I sure wish this motor didn't make so much power". So a little bragging rights - That's cool, your chassis dyno run proves it.

But Physics 101 - a two ton car going 150+ in your scenario is considered a leathal WEAPON in the eyes of the law. A car has an order of magnitude more force than a bike. Members of this board, myself included, are genuinely concerned that you don't go hurt yourself. Since you choose to ignore it - fine, just don't take anyone else with you. The consequences would be way beyond your control.

Good Luck.

Well said, but he just isn't listening. He just keeps typing I've got a 1000HP at the crank......

Imagine you are going 200mph. Now look at your wristwatch and count off 18 seconds.

You just covered a mile.

are there any books that cover aerodynamics and their practical use on a racecar....something that starts with the basics of spoiler/airdam design?

because I too am looking to build a car capable of running these speeds but I am starting with a shell and building the car for this purpose.

Here's a nice little read on the aerodynamics of a 1st gen Camaro.

http://www.yearone.com/enthusiast/re...8-21camaro.pdf

Notice how the front produces LIFT, and that's at relatively low speeds with a front spoiler. I can only imagine a brick like a '71 Chevelle would be even worse, frontal area is definitally worse. Gotta get that thing down to the ground with a rake, block of the grill, etc. if you'll ever have chance of keeping that thing on the ground at 200.

There are a few. Some are more cusrory.

Best book is by Joseph Katz. Has good rules of thumb and lots of technical information.

You can also look for SAE papers....

John Buscema
XV Motorsports
www.xvmotorsports.com

Yup. Even with the air dam and spoiler, there is over 200lbs of LIFT at only 115mph. Recalling that the increase in drag, and aerodynamic lift increases with the square of speed the result @ 200mph is......yikes.

Nitro,
I am being totally serious here. I want to know what makes you think that the above and these [http://www.mulsannescorner.com/techarticle1.htm] aerodynamic principles wont apply in your application.

This is in the September 2005 Road and Track

Here it is:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=2572

Interesting stuff.

Do you by chance know the name of the book?

where would I find SAE papers?

I thought at one time I saw a book by steve smith on aerodynamics but I haven't seen it since.

thats a pretty good little read, The car that I am going to try to get to that speed is a 72 nova, I plan on a pretty big airdam, blocking the whole grill, except for the rad. opening., probably a piece of sheet alum. dzused over the grill/headlight area for top speed runs, I want to do all the proper research before I start cutting sheetmetal etc. I was going to use flush mount door handles, cut/tuck the rear bumper into the body etc....

I also plan on running an artmorrison chassis and fully itegrated cage...etc... with that chassis I should be able to set ride heights really low and make the bottom of the car flat.

as far as aero tricks it has crossed my mind to lower the leading edge of the hood to pomote downforce and then make the part of the fender that lines up with the hood come down to match the hood. but leave the outer edge of the fender stock so it doesn't disturb the body line.

Race Car Aerodynamics: designing For Speed
By Jospeh Katz
ISBN 0-8376-0142-8

SAE: www.sae.org
I wouldn't start buying papers until you have a handle on what you are looking for.

Re: the Camaro article all these cars have lots of front end lift. My Mustang in stock trim had 200 lbs of lift at 100 MPH. Also, the air dam on the Camaro may work some, but it will make lots of drag. You always want to make downforce, or in this case reduce lift, while minimizing drag. Lift itself causes drag to go up.

John Buscema
XV Motorsports
www.xvmotorsports.com

More math:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-induced_drag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-to-drag_ratio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_aerodynamics

some of you guys mentioned wind tunnel testing in previous posts, Is there any place that you could do/get wind tunnel testing done without having nascar pockets?

The amount of modifications and such to your car would be so expensive to get it to sustain 200 mph and be racing at the same time be somewhat safe ( nothing is safe at 200 ask Dale E's family), that it would no longer look like a chevelle.

Not a do able thing IMO. One plus would be you can pick your coffin out before you get in the car, put some wings on it because it will likely take a few short flights, no qualified frequent flier miles though.

Don't do it, period. Be safe and alive is a good thing.

Uh, oh. Now you've done it, Stuart. Nitrorocket warned everyone he's asking for help on this quest not to tell him his car wouldn't be stable at 200mph.
If I didn't know better, I'd think Nitrorocket was channelling Andy Kaufman doing a car "comedy" bit in this thread.

AeroDyn built a 2nd wind tunnel to keep up with demand. A1 was running a full 24/7 schedule, so they built A2 and discounted the rates since they doubt it will be possible to fill the schedule.

http://www.a2wt.com/info.html

Man,I find myself shaking my head in agreement with some of you. My modified 90 ZR-1 was dead-stable at 155mph,started to feel tail-end light at a little over 165,and was starting to make me very nervous at 175.

Just trying to lighten it up some. Nitro, I think your goals and such are great, but honestly why put your life in jeopardy by trying to make some basic mods and race at 200 mph. Honestly I don't want to sound like a smart ass comedian, but really you need to consult some specialists in the arena your trying to race in.

It's not just basic numbers, IMO. It's much more involved than that. Going down a straight away at 200mph, and then shutting it down immediately is MUCH different than racing at 200mph. Good luck and be cool.

Here we go again, some good info, and some stupid stuff.

How have I lost respect of anyone??? By saying I want to try to hit about 200 mph and that I have the power to do it so tell me what stuff people are doing to be stable at these speeds???

THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING THE WHOLE TIME!!!!!! :mad:

I have to KEEP mentioning my 1000 hp not to brag, but have you seen all the replys saying I dont have enough power!, I am simply stating I do, so don't keep talking about it and doubting 1000 hp could hit 200 mph. Talk about things I need to know about handling! Handling is the issue, not my power but people kept going on it. What was I supposed to say??

I have also been listining to everything people are saying and have gotton a ton of good ideas going through my head now, but every other post is how it can't be done, or picking on me, what the hell is the deal here!

I asked what people are doing to hit these speeds, maybe I can only hit 175 mph with good stability, but at least that is something, right??

I have been checking at all the trans places I can find to see if the 4th gear on a 4l80 can handle full power and live, Hipster said no, but a few other places are getting back to me. Looks like a Gearvendors unit might be the only choice?? That would suck because I really want one of those super trick paddle shift steering wheels!! :unibrow:

Man, this is like a bad wreck, you can't help but to look. :faint:
Here's the article in Hot Rod, it talks about the setup of car: http://www.hotrod.com/projectbuild/1...nal/index.html
Next check out www.landracing.com and www.openroadracing.com. Both have forums, people there would be able to help you more than everyone here combined, but, dig how few people are in the 200mph club. Notice how everyone is competing w/ RACE CARS and not STREET CARS? You have the power to do it, noone is doubting that. Read up on the rules and get the car to pass tech ie: full boogey Cage, not a 6 pt. bar, and everything else that will turn your STREET CAR into a RACE CAR really quick. One last point, you can't just show and proclaim "I'm gonna run 200mph in my sUper SiC 1,000hp Chevelle y0!" You have to go in stages up to Unlimited. Take it in steps, do the reading and researching, add the safety items and then add some more, then you can do it. With luck. Maybe. :willy:

Stupid stuff? You mean people being concerned for you and your safety? That kind of stupid stuff?

People not wanting to find out on a Monday morning that you made a smoking hole in the desert?
I would hope people might be so "stupid" regarding me someday.


Shut down the pride for a minute and you will see that is exactly what people have been doing. There have been suggestions regarding required body, suspension, and safety modifications required to make your STREET car at least survivable at those speeds. But the overriding theme is concern for your safety. The reason is that you are, and you must admit to this, using a frying pan as a screwdriver.

A '71 Chevelle is not the right tool for the job. By saying that I am by no means saying you shouldnt try. If you did it, it would be bitchin as all-get-out. However, it will be VERY tough, VERY expensive and VERY VERY dangerous to do so.

I and the rest, are simply trying to make sure you are aware of the obstacles and the HUMONGUS risk you are undertaking.

What he said. :thumbsup:

On a 4L80E, Overdrive will not handle 1000HP at high speed. It is designed for economy--not high load applications. That said, you can hang a gear splitter off a 4L80E just as easily as with any other transmission.

misguided
 

I don't think the main problem here is lift, but Drag.

The Chevelle (however beautiful it is) is not the most aerodynamic shape to come out of Detroit.

1. the front bumper being angled downward provides lift.

2. The entire grill and head light area being nearly flat creates drag, and a lot of it.

3. the entire underbody is drag.

4. The hood creates downforce.

5. The windshield creates drag.

The problem of flipping occurs more with cars with smooth underbodies that are close to the ground, with too soft suspension. As they hit a dip or bump, the car bottoms out and loses all the downforce created by the smooth underbody and if the front is any higher than the rear at any point, at high speed the amount of air that gets rammed under the car will lift it.

The problem is not Flipping at 200 mph, but being controllable at 200 mph. There are supercars that are scary to drive over 150. Then again there are high powered sedans that will cruise at 180 like they are doing 100.

Here is the thing, do you want to do 200 mph once and survive and be able to say "I built a car that did 200 mph" or do you want to build a car that can do 200 mph comfortably without scaring the hell out of you?

Honestly, at 200 mph with a full cage you might not make it if you hit a bump. At 200 mph with a full tube chassis and the proper safety equipment you still might not make it if you hit a dip. Chances are you will if you have the right ssafety euipment, but there is also a chance you might not. I am not saying you will flip, but if the car is unstable at speed, it will be uncontrollable. Also, the road you might know very well now, will make your car behave VERY differently at 200 mph. Plus any type of lane change if not done extremely gradually (about 6-10 seconds) will be fatal. Think about how far you will travel in 6 seconds at 200 mph.

180 mph is like the sound barrier for cars. It is mysterious, it changes things.

If it was no big deal, we wouldn't have speed limits. There is a reason people are telling you it is crazy, it is extremely dangerous. It's a route people have taken before and not come back from.

Why are people telling you to work on the aerodynamics of the car? To make it more stable and controllable. So you will be able to predict how the car will behave and you will come back.

At high speeds, handling is well beyond just the suspension. You need the aerodynamics to make the car stable. I am not talking about a full pro-mod body, but a front air dam, the right rake, a proper spoiler and perhaps work under the car.

I think the philosophy here is "if you are going to do it, do it right" therefore make the car stable as you possibly can at 200mph, instead of just making it barely able to reach 200.

I know for a fact that 1000 hp can get you to 200, but if the car is producing more lift at the front than downforce, your steering control will be extremely limited (think slushy roads) and your upgraded shocks will be useless because you will not be able to controll your car very well. This is avoided by aerodynamics, specifically downforce (air dam).

When I put up this post, I wanted to know what people are doing to go 200 mph, being that it sounds almost impossible to hit the actual 200 mph mark, I don't mind. Even if I can only be stable at 180 mph, that cool with me, but I have a goal to be able to do this. So far, I feel real comfortable at 150. The car is real stable and feels smooth and quiet. It's gets to there reall fast and smooth and also comes down from that speed real fast and smooth. At this point it really does'nt feel like I am going that fast at all, that's why I thought 200 would'nt be to far away! You never know, maybe someday.

All the safety stuff is easy as far as finding out what I need, that will just depend on where I race the car. My big concentration right now is part selection to make the car stable.

Currently I am thinking, Hal adjustable shocks(unless I get first hand input otherwise), HR parts adjustable rear anti roll bar, Y rated Tires like the newer G-force BFG's, Gear vendors overdrive unit to handle full power(4L80 will not hold).

From there I will try a local track day at Road America and just start creeping up in speed and see how the car acts. I will be interessted to see ho the car will react to individual changes in front and rear ride height. I would think keeping the rear where it is and lowering the front a tad more would be benificial for front end lift.

Would sure be nice to have unlimited access to a wind tunnel and move ride heights around to see what works best without have to even take it out! Has anyone seen any tests on an actual Chevelle?????

Just the mere fact you asked your last question leads me to believe not many 71 Chevelles are racing at 200 mph. Good luck with your journey, I don't think this is the place for your answers. 200 mph and 71 Chevelle, sounds like oil and water to me.

Good luck with your project.

Also, maybe a real good wax would help! :D

okay quick picture of a "Wicker" on the fender of the Cuda.

Jack explained to me that the car would be a plane without it.

http://www.sportmachines.com/albums/..._07_01_048.jpg