Hey!! In order to stay ahead of Gaetano --- I need to build MAX EFFORT motors.... sometimes they're a little "edgy".

Greg's car
 

So I understand we are just tracking
I want to be fast and have a good reliable car
Pantera got its regular dot road race tires back on
Not that crappy 200 wear stuff. Tires are the right height
now because i had a taller tire in front and shorter tire out
back with the 200 stuff. Car sits better and works better

Other than tires and changing,fluids,pads and blown shocks...
Yes they leak a lot but work I have not changed anything
In 10 years.

At thunderhill in A group (just below full race cars) I never got
passed including viper boy wanting me by after we went thru the group
So the car is fast but should I tweak it???

So I run uncorked at laguna before that and now in full race class
Scca guys, merc9 etc and never passed anyone. I think I did better there
in speed than thunderhill. Go figure

My bird has had so much changed in the last year I am
Not sure where it is. Maybe more seat time

I only run the Pantera 2-4 times a year

Panteracer

Like building any detailed structure, you need to know you have a solid well engineered foundation.

The first element of that foundation with an existing car is blueprinting every aspect of it. The second part is doing ALL the math and thoroughly understanding what it's telling you. Good suspension software and a fluent operator is mandatory to run (test drive) numerous scenarios........IMO

Two wheeled suspension tuning is very simple compared 4 wheels.

If you want to know the honest to god truth -- I really don't want to know how to do any of it. I like to know WHAT is being done and WHY... and the reason for that is so that as a driver I can come back and say "it got edgy" or "it got tight" or "it now feels loose". Maybe I'll understand enough about the "dive" and "squat" etc that if we mess with stuff I'll be able to report that it "dove and stayed down"... Or that it was loose on exit rather than being loose on turn in.

I really only want to know that stuff so that I can tell Ron... and then he'll figure out what to change and we'll discuss what was done and why and what I should look for and think about on the next session.

He's a magician at getting me to give him feedback he can use. If he wasn't in my corner -- I'd just go out and drive my ass off and continue to describe the car as "the pissed off bull".

I've learned a TON --- but that doesn't mean I have to know everything about suspension that took a guy 30 years to learn. And I don't want to. I've been working on these POS cars for 2/3rds of my life. I kind of like living large and having someone that REALLY KNOWS what's going on that will fix whatever "it" is quickly. If we can't fix it quickly - it goes in mothballs and the other car gets driven. I'm not getting all worked up over missing a 20 minute session.

Much of what I learned in my professional life is to delegate to people that are better at something than I am. I don't need to be a lawyer to understand what the lawyer is telling me.... And I'm smart enough to understand that because I understood what the lawyer was talking about doesn't make me a lawyer.

Greg's track car
 

So I buy speed tech's front end ,their springs
Buy some mono leafs from pro touring with Vikings
Set the car low. Wheel offsets are set on my 25 year old
Simons racing wheels. So I can tweak alignment, heights
and shocks. Didn't they do most of the math or do I get
Calculus books out. Slopes and angles are easy for a contractor
Bending the a-arms or anchor points is something else

Panteracer

I'll tell ya the number 1 thing I've learned.... that there's so much more to it than just buying parts. For me it's like guys that just buy parts for their motors... and they can spout numbers and parts numbers and all manor of useless knowledge that's like reading an encyclopedia... and then you go out and spank em like a bad child with a motor that's smaller and makes less power. At that point - I don't really care how much they know or think they know.

I'll let 'em go back to the pits and tell someone else how bad ass their car is and how many kool parts they have. I'll sit on my ass and have another water and relax.

It's the difference between watching porn and dating a porn star.....


Disclaimer:
I'm not calling Ron a porn star or saying Greg watches a lot of porn.....jury is still out on Sieg. :hello:

Greg's track car
 

Just spent some time on Rons tuning thread
Pantera I think is good for now. Thread confirmed the
softer springs for the bird are what I need out front
They have been sitting on the counter for a few months
Will check some travel of the suspension and more
than likely raise the rear of the car along with a few
Other things someone told me already.

Heading in the right direction now Time to do it and
start testing. I think I know enough to be dangerous
Sounds like what my Architectural instructor told me
when I left school to be a Contractor

Panteracer

Put the car on a surface plate and measure everything to the millimeter, then 4-corner scale it and enter the data into a well engineered suspension program and analyze the output......hopefully the results say it has potential.....or you can do it before you buy all the parts that may or may not meet your objectives. :secret:

I'll repeat what I've said here a million times already ---- Ron Sutton Race Technology is the BEST PART I'VE EVER BOUGHT.


There is no way the Mustang would have gotten to where it is right now without him. I've worked with a zillion "shops" over time. Not one of them had the knowledge or hook ups that Ron has.

Before Ron - I took the car to JFC (Just Fast Cars) race shop just to discuss doing alignment etc and to see if there was anything "else" I could do to the car. They offered no info - never asked me what I did or didn't like about the handling... in other words - it was just "another shop". So I never took it back.

There is a pretty good - IMHO - shop at Sonoma Raceway... McGee Motorsports - and they work on and maintain and race 'vintage iron' like we're running. They seem to know how to set a car up - and every bill I've had from them was half what I expected it to be. They treat the car with respect. And I like the guys and THEY are drivers themselves - with experience. So I was very comfortable discussing how I drive - what the car did etc.

Again -- that's a very good shop that works only on race cars...

But -- the LEVEL of the work that RSRT did on the old girl is a whole 'nother universe... and the shops HE has access to are in the OMG realm of race cars.

There are "shops" and there's "knowledge" and there's "decent handling"... but like EVERYTHING on this website - there's home built - shop built - kinda half and half - but we all know the difference when we see OMG builds! SEMA builds if you will. What I got from RSRT is a SEMA build for what we're trying to accomplish with the car. And here's the other thing I like about working with him on this project.

He knows full well I can afford whatever it is he would like to do with the car. But in all of our discussions - he'd explain to me - "well, if we were racing and needed to be in first place we'd probably do X and X and XYZ"...."but we're not racing and the cost to do all of that would only marginally improve what we're going to do". In other words -- there was a cost / benefit line of thinking applied to the project. You MUST respect a guy for that kind of effort on your behalf. It's called getting the most bang for the buck. Even I appreciate that. LOL

That same exact theory was used on my build as well. Right from the beginning Ron asked what my budget was and laid out a plan to get the most we could get from what I had on hand and could afford to add as we went along. Once we were done gathering all of the information, he laid out a plan that fit my budget and said when you are ready, I'm ready. We then started on stage 1 of the setup and once done worked on tuning it. It was a huge improvement on my car that fixed the ills and made the car handle fantastic right out of the box. The total parts bill for stage 1 was just over $1,000 and I did all of the labor in my shop at home with a little bit of help from some friends.

Once I got a little taste of that though, I wanted more and Stage 2 was initiated. Once again, a plan was formulated, budgeted and once I was ready off we went. We are now still working on Stage 3.

My point is...you don't need a huge budget to put Ron's ability to work for you. He can help you make your car perform better at any stage you happen to be in.

Sooo...I take it you guys actually LIKE Ron then? :D

:cheers:

I'm starting to get the idea that Greg likes the work Ron did. :lol:

He definitely filled a gaping hole in this hobby. I remember tuning on my car and throwing parts at it. I eventually achieved pretty good balance in the chassis and braking but not before multiple attempts. Ron's advice would've saved me a small fortune with better results.

I agree with you Greg, pay a professional to do his job. A real professional with a proven track record.

That sums it up right there. WE are not pro racers. We're weekend warriors. Nothing wrong with that at all.. it's just the fact. What Sutton does is gets 30 years of experience jammed into a weekend -- or a few emails -- or perhaps a mechanical visit. AND BAM! You've got yourself a bonafide handler that will save you a year, or two, or longer even - of wasted events. The only thing you're going to regret is having waited so long to engage.

I just want to make it known that I outran Gaetano without a Nascar crew chief and rebuilding my car. :lol:

My NASCAR (It's capitalized) crew chief isn't there to outrun Gaetano... He's there so I can outrun Blue group guys!


Actually - I just don't want Charley to pass me so GD easy! LOL

I just want to publicly apologize to everyone for talking Greg into buying a track car and getting him into the school. I thought great, now we will have a big toterhome etc. I forgot Greg was going to be there as well.

Maybe you could start to run with NCRC or Hooked on Driving. LOL


I'd switch but NorCal Shelby Club wrote me a letter to tell me how much fun all the flag workers are having when I'm on track.

Greg's car
 

I went thru a lot trial and error on the Pantera
and it is pretty good now. Might go back there after my
journey with the bird

My old mustang (Chet's car) was given to the experts
at Custom alignment to redo brakes springs shocks the
total package. It worked great when done and is still working

Bird is one I want to do myself and learn how to tune it
And even change it if needed Still a leaf spring car
It has been a phase thing with some info from
one of Herb Adams suspension guys of past
I recently changed the back end and then it hooked up
so good it pushed the front. Was told to get softer springs in front
so I bought them but was wondering if this is the right direction
until I reread Ron's thread
I was also told to raise the rear a lot. I am hard headed like
A certain orange car owner and have been fighting that suggestion
but again confirmed in Ron's thread

Will finish it up and start testing. May talk to Ron or my guy
once I can give some feedback. Would rather learn and sort
Parts are bought just need to tweak
I think I just need to be open to changing things
and not just satisfied with better

Greg I think I told you going from 16" to 18" wheels helped your
Handling a lot. I know Ron gave you a great package but my custom
Alignment buddy went from 17"to 18" and picked up over 2 seconds
At thunderhill Car sets faster in the turn instead of waiting for the tire
to recover

Went from 15" to 17" many years before on the bird. Before
My mustang buddy and I were very close after the change I
Just waived bye bye
Thinking 18" May be in the future

Panteracer

Bob -- There was so much done at one time that I can't decipher which item made a difference... IMHO it just all works together! The response and the feel of the car are just so incredibly improved. Mostly what I noticed right off the bat was that all the weird sashaying was gone --- and the brakes are so friggin much better it was like I didn't have any at all before!


We also (I should say RON) played with the wheel WIDTH getting the same tire to have a better contact patch.

Welds car
 

Glad you love the car
Guys like Ron or custom or Maier can
Tear everything off and put all new and hit it that
close. Maier tweaks his cars all the time
Pulls his rolling tool box up in the pit lane at
autocrosses and adjusts. Saw him change springs
at a Pleasanton event. Watched Mary Posey click her shocks
at an event. Looks like you and Ron are going to do that next

I just want to be close and then start tweaking. My herb Adams
Suspension guy told me he sometimes preloaded the sway bar left or right
on certain autocross tracks. That is tweaking

I am with you I want the car ready and don't want to work on
it at the track. But I do want to tune it there

Sashaying. My wife had a X5 BMW. Every time I drove it the rear
end would sashay back and forth. For all that money you would think
the damn German engineers could figure it out

Greg,
What car is Charley driving circles around you in?

Your posts are killing me! :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :thankyou:

Hi Greg :hello:

Charley has a REAL vintage '66 Shelby GT350 that was a B/Production champion.

Leaf springs - drum brakes...

Charley is a real good driver and carries lots of speed. He's been at this a lot longer than I have, and I'll most likely never catch up.

Since I didn't put a TV on the outside of the Toterhome - I was hoping he'd just sell the cars and quit. So far that strategy hasn't worked.

He doesn't need your encouragement!












Hi buddy!

G - for whatever reason - and danged if I can figure it out - the text train stopped on my phone. I'm not getting anything. Don't actually know if it's still going or not. I drove down to the shed the other day and all of a sudden 100 texts came one after another. Since then - nothing. I think I might have gotten a defective iPhone 6 -- and will take it to the Apple store when I hit Vegas. It does weird things.

It's a blessing... Embace it with a reach around.

I assumed he was driving Mayhem.
Keep up the good work.
Good luck.

If you two had a reality show....... I'd watch it :hello:

No worries. working on catching up this weekend. :thumbsup:

You know --- I have no idea how Mayhem would do with these purpose built track cars.... That car has a bunch of power! And I'm pretty sure that Mark could probably blow both of us off with it. But I'm not really very knowledgeable about all these various cars because I've never driven them. Charley probably has an opinion that would be of interest since he's driven 'em all.










Just come racin' with us one weekend.... if you can stomach that - it could give you a lifetime of laughs. "Mayhem" comes to mind. I wonder if Stielow had anything in mind when he named it that. Or maybe "Jackass"....

:secret: :whistling:

Will do!! You guys ain't much worse then racers. And I'll have enough laughs for two life times ;)

Congrats Greg and Ron on getting ye old Stang transformed into a whole bunch of fun. :thumbsup:

Cali needs a problem solver like Ron too.

:D

It's funny --- the Mustang was built 14+ years ago... it's had new more powerful motors -- the tires have gotten better... and yet the suspension and brakes remained "old skool". We forget to show the whole car some love.... So this is just exactly what the Doctor ordered. Some upgrading to catch up to the power level... and push the new tire compounds to their limits.


Ron for Gubernator has my vote!!



Speaking of the Gubernator -- Ahnold has a home here in the valley.... One of his kids is now dating Miley Cyrus (?). They were at the table next to us having coffee the other day at Java On Fourth. Here's the beauty of this valley. Not one single person gawked at them - not a single camera or phone came out - and not one person asked for an autograph. They could just come in and enjoy each other and a bowl of soul....

Any chance the people were gawking at you? :computer:

No doubt!
I'd rather have a genuine GW autograph in my barn than either one of the other two people you mentioned.

I'd rather have a barn. :RunninDog:

Ron Myer approves of this capacity for a 1st gen parts warehouse owner.


:hello:

They weren't staring at me particularly but probably comparing Miley and Gwen... thinking that Gwen is far prettier.