Glad you had a good day G. What were Karl's times today? Did Dave drive that car too?

6pm and the excuses are already out. :lol:

Come on you know how it works now.. Sutton told him to not use those anymore. :rules:

Just a minute -- I have to confer with my manager!


Yep -- it's all about the science of actually measuring things and then buying parts that work with the science. Yippeeeeeeeee

Same configuration Greg ran two weekends ago?

Karl said he blew the LS up at Sonoma recently. Car is on hold for now.

Nope.

Dang. Shoulda stuck with good ole proven old school stuff eh. That sucks. That motor is only about 6 months old or something.

Old School New school they all need special attention and a regular tear down inspection. It happens.

You know I was kidding. They don't short cut over there @ Life's Good Racing. It was a crate motor from Schwanke (not cheap at all).

Todd -- It's really hard to figure out what the split is between the two configurations. Most folks just factor about 3 or 4 seconds faster for the bypass config. But - always the big butt - I've found track records with as little as 1 second difference.

If we just invoke the Andy Sutak rule -- it's 7 seconds. Close enough for government work. That puts Gaetano right there with "us". I should have added that he is the track record holder in every configuration - CW and CCW - with and without The Cyclone (aka The Crows Nest).

If you haven't seen an Andy Sutak Thunderhill video - or any of his videos - just YouTube the guy. He's holy smoking crack fast.

NASA TT track record holder in CLASS A (I don't know the HP/Weight rules in this class) -- running with the Cyclone -- in a 2006 Mustang is 2:10.077

I couldn't find a NASA TT time with the bypass for any car that I would think is "similar"... that have a posted track record.

My point is -- there's no set time you can assign for the difference in the two track configs... The generally accepted rule I always heard was 3 to 4 seconds - but I think it's more than that based on most of my homework with similar cars to what we are running.... yet I've also found track record holders running in the 1.40's with as little as a 1 second difference. Obviously those are very fast cars with very accomplished drivers - so that may account for the smaller split. IDK.

Seems to me he's doing pretty dang well.

Yup, yup ... sure does. These powerful engines can not be treated like a plug-n-play toaster. They require TLC.

Gregs covering lunch at Sonoma? Nice!! Thanks Greg. :thumbsup:

Just tell the Thubderhill grill that you want to put it on Weld's tab.

I should have the American Express Platinum cards for everyone by then.

^ great comeback Greg hahahaa...

Might as well buy everyone new racecars while you're at it :lol:

:cheers:

Charley hasn't said "I need to".

We thought we could get a few more from them.

Im looking at a C6 caliper and Z51 rotor kit for him over his current C4 based brakes. The difference in the pad and rotor size alone should be a great help.

A few years ago I made an adapter bracket and just have to get it laser cut. His existing hub should do...we may look to Tobin at Kore3.com for a billet hub and 1/2" studs. Its such a nice easy upgrade.

Then I'll make a rotor cooling deflectors. I haven't found a reliabe way to run cooling ducts and survive anything larger than 255's. Blowing $185 each time I try isn't helping me at all.

Run the ducts via the frame horns -- in the front / out the sides to the rotors...



Didn't you see the thread on Steilows car? Was clever as hell!!

On a straight through design yes but a large feat on a 1st gen frame. I have seen it done before on 2nd gen frames.

We have done the cooling deflectors before and it works well and fairly quick and inexpensive to build.

I'd definitely call Tobin at Kore3. I was just up there last week inspecting his new shop. He's a great guy and an engineer by trade.....so he understands friction and pressure. He may also be able to assist with your bracket design/build. He's also very practical, so you'll to get what you need vs the newest latest and greatest.

Utilizing the frame horns for brake ducts is such a KISS move, when I saw that on Mark's new build I was............:sieg:

Vince ---


I sent a copy of a spread sheet that Ron Sutton Race Technologies worked out on my Mustang - we have the exact same brake system... Baer 2 piston front with an 12" rotor - and C4 single piston 12" rotor rear...

The brake torque using the Hawk DTC70 pads front and rear is 2515 torque

Keeping the exact same brakes but running the less CoF pad - Wilwood "A" pad in front and Wilwood "B" pad rear -- gives me 3074 torque

It might seem bassakwards -- but by going to a smaller front rotor - the Baer 4 piston with an 11" rotor and running the Hawk DTC 70 pad brings the torque to 2957

So as you can see -- by just changing the pads I can get more torque out of the same system.

That is not to say some major brake upgrades are not in the works for the old gal!!! Just saying that there are simple ways for people to upgrade their performance if they use some science over just throwing parts at stuff.

My thought is - that if he was just killin' our times then he might need way larger brakes --- but Charley is running rear DRUMS and is killin' it lap after lap while he's sipping Martini's and eating Bon-Bons.

Were going to have to save this upgrade for later. I ordered pads and rotors last night.
I did a lot of research and it appears the C4 set up really isn't that bad especially if your running a lighter car. It appears that they were prone to spreading and the way to tell if your caliper has spread is the the pad will wear at an angle from front to back or back to front.
There are also C4 calipers that were not prone to spreading because of the way they were cast. The C4 calipers from Baer(which are the ones I'm using) are not prone to spreading(from what I read) but if they are I will find out shortly because the pads I was using had such a strong bite I can hear and feel the rotors screaming for mercy not to mention the heat checking in them that I had never noticed before.
As far as rotors go I had talked to a guy at the NASA event that told me that he had gone to a Stop Tech rotor that had been treated through a heat and cold process among other treatments(don't remember the exact details) and that these rotors withstood major abuse with no heat checking and for my car through tire rack were only $127 a pop. That is a great price. Not sure how many of you have shopped race rotors but I have seen them from $650 and up.

A pad and rotor change would be the easiest route.

You are thinking of the cryo treatment.

Time will tell Vince. The bigger Hoosiers up front with a good set of pads and rotors are going to tax the front end quite a bit........hubs, bearings, and control arm bushings are the first things that come to mind.

Yup. Cryo treatmeant.

You'll be "Cryo" after Sonoma - but I digress (Gaetano - that means I'm off subject)...



When I heard the ratings on the various BEARINGS (wheel) I was shocked! My little bearings are good for like 950 -- and with some calculating Ron thinks I'm probably hammering with 1100 or 1200.... and the big race bearings we'll switch to will handle 1800ish


So I can't remember what the numbers represented... torque or what... I just remember that my little bitty bearings aren't good for the pressures we're running at.

It's kinda like the oil pan for the Lotus --- once we put sticky tires on it - I had to get an oil pan with baffling! With the poopie tires you couldn't corner hard enough to cause the oil to climb.

Well --- I'm thinking you're in that situation with the brakes Gaetano --- now you're running Hoosiers... big fat ones I might add (building evidence for later if his times are better than mine! LOL) you're cornering entry speeds can handle more -- and you'll be able to brake harder later... and you're going to run into that bearing load issue with those HUGE by WIDE big FAT super sticky Hoosiers (remember this conversation guys!).

Agreed. I have been looking into hubs and bearings also. The two brands that seem to come up are SKF and Timken. I will keep them in mind and at the same time plant the seed in Vinces head so that he can help me make a good decision based on what will apply to my existing set up. We'll also keep this season light with just 3 events in anticipation of making it to next season with the addition of Ronnie and Dave to the group.

Do either one have a car? Been so long I've forgotten....

We know which direction we need to go...its just what we can do within his budget. I can only eat so much.

The Hoosiers were a surprise to me. That wasn't supposed to happen till after this season.

Spindles, steering arms, bearings and suspension bushings are on the check list.

stay tuned as we will all be doing our homework.

Not really the brand as much as maintenence, grease, pre load and inspection I feel is more important.

Each time your car comes in after a track event it goes up on the rack and the hubs are pre checked for free play, then torn down, the grease, bearings, races and spindle shafts are inspected. Its part of my Track-Pak inspection.

As of last inspection everything looked good.

Grease, We look for grease blow out, cook off and general condition.
Bearings and races we look for discoloration and pitting.
Spindle shaft we look for cracking, discoloration and galling.

The GM outer bearings are just tiny, I remember a thread with forces listed. I cannot find it now. I believe it was when Pozzi was addressing the short spindle failures.


Greg, I remember the thread and Rons listing for brake forces. I think it was Rons thread.

I just did all of this and really expected the bearings to have some issues... but they looked (after I degreased 'em) real good - we're talking inner and outer here - they ran and felt smooth - and the races weren't discolored or galled or any metal dust anywhere... I packed 'em full of synthetic grease -- put new seals in... and re-installed 'em back on the spiffy, cleaned to the ninth degree, spindles.

Really glad i did this nasty little job because the grease was definitely "cooked" off... Not dry - but definitely was ready to be cleaned up and gone.

We're expecting a celebrity guest appearance too! :D

Never thought I'd ever have BEARING ENVY...


I will upgrade to all this stuff on the Mustang after the August Sonoma event... that way Ron Sutton (I have to include his name lest you guys think I'm taking Ron in So Cals advice for something... hahahahahaha) will have had a chance to really look see at the underpinnings in case there's anything else that should be done.


Again - since lots of people read this stuff..... There's nothing "wrong" with the Mustang the way it is... BUT!! As Ron helps me dial this car in - the speeds and corner loads increase.... and I'm no engineer - but I think they probably grow A LOT as you increase the speeds. I'm going to ASSume that the braking loads increase - as you go deeper into a corner at a higher speed -- which is going to ADD HEAT to the equation... and as I go faster / harder - then the tires start to heat up and on and on. So what's good at one/some point -- it becomes a liability at another.

We all love to buy parts! And we all want to have bragging rights for this wheel or this tire - or this big brake kit..... I've just never given any thoughts to the other little parts that might actually matter. Bearing failure in a high speed corner is not an option!

Thanks for the info Ron. :thumbsup:

I guess you will have to see if it needs an upgrade or not. I'm not sure how many options you have for larger capacity hubs but the nice thing is it will warn you, you just have to know what to watch for.

Thanks Ron,
I will continue to monitor Gaetanos bearing packs. If I see any signs of abnormal wearing or grease failure we will look at a different hub and or spindle.

Exhibit B:

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/...75362442_o.jpg

Ron, Where does the C5/C6/Z06 Etc. sealed bearing assembly fit into this equation? The GM guys have the luxury of going with a ATS spindle that utilizes a c6 bearing pack. I know mine were still tight when I sold my car. Not that much road racing time, however.

I saw that in person Saturday night and it was IMPRESSIVE!!!

Just the fact that we're having a discussion about bearings -- and temperatures -- and service items...


Makes me wonder how many guys haven't checked this stuff at all - let alone after really pushing their cars hard.


I know for me -- I have a pretty decent shop and tons of time... so it's pretty easy for me to put this stuff up on the hoist and go over stuff. But I know if I had kids at home - and work - and house stuff to attend to - the car might just get parked in the garage and forgotten about until it's time to run again.