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Vegas69 03-07-2013 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sieg (Post 468648)
Back to business..........

I fiddled with the fuel screws and throttle positions and obtained near 12" vacuum at 1K rpm which is as good as it gets with this cam IMO.

Throttle response right off idle felt good actuating it by hand. The initial timing was 13-14* with 21* mechanical. I decided to experiment with initial timing and see how the motor would respond. I bumped it to 15-16* and immediately had a big flat spot right off idle. WTF? Dropped it to 12-13* and still had the flat spot. Put it back to 13-14* and the flat spot was still there......I managed to create a flat spot without touching the carb settings, just changing the initial advance. :headscratch:

I list timing as 12-13*, 13-14*, 15-16* because that's what it is when locked down.

I've had subtle doubts since this motor went back together...........something hasn't seemed quite right and this latest issue is supporting my suspicions.

Gear drive or distributor possibly creating issues?
Did the engine temperature change? That amount of timing shouldn't make much difference to a bog. You aren't going to tune out a stumble with idle mixutre and transfer slot. It's time to start playing with accel pump cams.

Sieg 03-07-2013 08:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas69 (Post 469318)
Did the engine temperature change? That amount of timing shouldn't make much difference to a bog. You aren't going to tune out a stumble with idle mixutre and transfer slot. It's time to start playing with accel pump cams.
Todd,

Started with engine temp at 175* it got up to 195*

The bog was instant with throttle opening and no load, and it appeared to be initiated with the timing change, the temp could be a factor but I didn't think it would cause a substantial bog.

I'll throw a different pump cam in and see how it responds.

I checked with MSD tech and they didn't think the +/- 1* timing fluctuation was abnormal.

Here's the cam specs FWIW:
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-b...bv6pN27-XL.jpg

intocarss 03-07-2013 09:01 PM
When you give it gas right off idle, (bog) does it cut out or does it blubber then catch?

Sieg 03-07-2013 09:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by intocarss (Post 469324)
When you give it gas right off idle, (bog) does it cut out or does it blubber then catch?
Big flat spot (as I'd call it) no blubbering, then it's fine. If I rev it and don't let it come all the way down to the 1K idle, say 1500 rpm, and crack the throttle it's fine. This has all been while actuating the throttle by hand.

Vegas69 03-07-2013 09:21 PM
One degree of fluctuation isn't worth thinking about. Battery voltage or a slightly different signal to your light could easily cause the difference. You can verify the timing is reacting properly with your timing light. If it is, I'd rule it out. Especially if the drivability problem is present. A fully warmed up engine vs. colder engine absolutely will change a stumble. Everything I advise you is from experience.....

intocarss 03-07-2013 11:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sieg (Post 469327)
Big flat spot (as I'd call it) no blubbering, then it's fine. If I rev it and don't let it come all the way down to the 1K idle, say 1500 rpm, and crack the throttle it's fine. This has all been while actuating the throttle by hand.
Then I agree with Todd's posts.

Blubbering = to much fuel

Dead spot = not enough fuel. ie squirters or accelerator pump or cam, maybe even PV . Is the accelerator pump arm gap adj properly?

You could try and push the primeary accelerator pump arm almost all the way down by hand just as you crack the throttle from idle or a split second before, which will send a bunch of fuel in. If it doesn't have a dead spot then this will tell you it's lack of fuel right at the hit. Just and old school trick. YES eng temp can effect and or make the stumble too

Have you thought about blocking off the PV's (if you have 2) jetting it up a few sizes and trying it again? I took the PV's out of mine and it runs better down low

Sieg 03-07-2013 11:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas69 (Post 469331)
One degree of fluctuation isn't worth thinking about. Battery voltage or a slightly different signal to your light could easily cause the difference. You can verify the timing is reacting properly with your timing light. If it is, I'd rule it out. Especially if the drivability problem is present. A fully warmed up engine vs. colder engine absolutely will change a stumble. Everything I advise you is from experience.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by intocarss (Post 469341)
Then I agree with Todd's posts.

Blubbering = to much fuel

Dead spot = not enough fuel. ie squirters or accelerator pump or cam. Is the accelerator arm adj properly?

You could try and push the primary accelerator pump arm almost all the way down by hand just as you crack the throttle from idle or a split second before, which will send a bunch of fuel in. If it doesn't have a dead spot then this will tell you it's lack of fuel right at the hit. Just and old school trick. YES eng temp can effect and or make the stumble too
Thanks guys. :thumbsup:

I've made sure the thermostat has opened and it up to temp before any tuning adjustments.

I'll say it acts like a lean bog, similar to the warm up throttle response with no choke system.

I'll toss a green pump cam on and see what happens.

Sieg 03-08-2013 12:08 AM
Pink pump cam is stock..........and lean down low.

http://www.holley.com/data/Products/...mpCamGraph.pdf

Vegas69 03-08-2013 07:57 AM
Mine came with Pink as well. It's for drag racing and absoutely horrible for throttle response. I'd jump up to orange as it delivers better volume on tip in..... I'm pretty positive that's the cam I used.

Sieg 03-08-2013 08:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas69 (Post 469384)
Mine came with Pink as well. It's for drag racing and absoutely horrible for throttle response. I'd jump up to orange as it delivers better volume on tip in..... I'm pretty positive that's the cam I used.
Sounds like a plan. I ran the green on the previous carb and it was a big improvement over the pink.

Did you end up with matching cams on both pumps?

Ron in SoCal 03-08-2013 09:27 AM
Green is better than Pink. Got it. :hello:

intocarss 03-08-2013 09:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron in SoCal (Post 469399)
Green is better than Pink. Got it. :hello:
And EFI is better then Carbs :hello:

Sieg 03-08-2013 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron in SoCal (Post 469399)
Green is better than Pink. Got it. :hello:
Quote:
Originally Posted by intocarss (Post 469403)
And EFI is better then Carbs :hello:

fleet 03-08-2013 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sieg (Post 469404)
That fool lets that happen to him...not this guy.




:D

intocarss 03-08-2013 11:57 AM

Track Junky 03-08-2013 02:03 PM
Have you tried bumping up the discharge nozzle size yet?

Sieg 03-08-2013 06:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas69 (Post 469384)
Mine came with Pink as well. It's for drag racing and absoutely horrible for throttle response. I'd jump up to orange as it delivers better volume on tip in..... I'm pretty positive that's the cam I used.
Money! Thank you. :thumbsup:

Still not ideally crisp but in the range now. The pump arm was at about .002 freeplay, I'll experiment lengthening/shortening the link +/- one flat of the nut and see if that helps.

:woot: :woot:

Sieg 03-08-2013 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Track Junky (Post 469432)
Have you tried bumping up the discharge nozzle size yet?
No, but were getting there! 31's in it now, 33's and 35's are probably worth testing.

It felt pretty strong with smooth primary to secondary transition in 3rd & 4th gear hard roll on's this afternoon.

protour73 03-10-2013 06:41 AM
Sieg, here's great spec chart for Holley accelerator pump cams. The amounts are per 10 strokes of the pump arm and it is based on a 50cc pump, but is a good visual to see the differences when adjusting the cam position.

http://www.abodyjoe.com/pictures/Mis.../holley057.jpg

DaleTx 03-10-2013 09:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sieg (Post 469327)
Big flat spot (as I'd call it) no blubbering, then it's fine. If I rev it and don't let it come all the way down to the 1K idle, say 1500 rpm, and crack the throttle it's fine. This has all been while actuating the throttle by hand.
:sieg:

After reading this.... I was thinking maybe you should try advancing the cam a few degrees and see if the response off the bottom gets better. Maybe it's just a matter of changing the valve timing events slightly.

Just throwing out another thing to try.... not sure if you considered this or not.

Sieg 03-10-2013 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protour73 (Post 469665)
Sieg, here's great spec chart for Holley accelerator pump cams. The amounts are per 10 strokes of the pump arm and it is based on a 50cc pump, but is a good visual to see the differences when adjusting the cam position.
Thanks Scott, I haven't seen the volumes charted before, nor the WOT pump arm dimension measured. :thumbsup:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleTx (Post 469679)
:sieg:

After reading this.... I was thinking maybe you should try advancing the cam a few degrees and see if the response off the bottom gets better. Maybe it's just a matter of changing the valve timing events slightly.

Just throwing out another thing to try.... not sure if you considered this or not.
Dale - The orange pump cam removed the off idle flat spot. What threw me was I thought I had eliminated the flat spot and bumped the initial timing which resulted in a big flat spot no matter what the initial timing was set at. I still don't understand what factors caused that to happen. Without an AFR monitor I'll assume it was lean to real lean in the transition and the motor could have loaded up a bit and when the timing was set it cleaned up at emphasized the lean condition.....:headscratch:

Based on the morning test drive it appears I'm finally heading in the right direction now.

:thankyou:

protour73 03-10-2013 02:07 PM
You swapped the pink cam for the orange (just primary?) ? .... what size is your primary pump nozzle (squirter)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sieg (Post 469715)
Thanks Scott, I haven't seen the volumes charted before, nor the WOT pump arm dimension measured. :thumbsup:


Dale - The orange pump cam removed the off idle flat spot. What threw me was I thought I had eliminated the flat spot and bumped the initial timing which resulted in a big flat spot no matter what the initial timing was set at. I still don't understand what factors caused that to happen. Without an AFR monitor I'll assume it was lean to real lean in the transition and the motor could have loaded up a bit and when the timing was set it cleaned up at emphasized the lean condition.....:headscratch:

Based on the morning test drive it appears I'm finally heading in the right direction now.

:thankyou:

Sieg 03-10-2013 03:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protour73 (Post 469722)
You swapped the pink cam for the orange (just primary?) ? .... what size is your primary pump nozzle (squirter)?
Orange on the primary, I'll start experimenting with the secondary circuit when the primary is dialed. Secondaries come in pretty smooth right now but there's room for improvement.

Nozzles are 31's on Primary & Secondary.

fleet 03-10-2013 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sieg (Post 469715)

Based on the morning test drive it appears I'm finally heading in the right direction now.

:thankyou:
A road trip to stately Weld Manor?

#someAlbertMasterBruce'sButlerSarcasm

:hello:

Sieg 03-10-2013 07:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by compos mentis (Post 469769)
A road trip to stately Weld Manor?

:hello:
If I get to sleep with Stella. :unibrow:

fleet 03-11-2013 06:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sieg (Post 469779)
If I get to sleep with Stella. :unibrow:




:hello:

protour73 03-12-2013 04:48 PM
Ok Sieg, what's up with the car?

Sieg 03-12-2013 06:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protour73 (Post 470149)
Ok Sieg, what's up with the car?
Zoom Zoom :D

intocarss 03-13-2013 11:16 AM
:RunninDog: :RunninDog: :RunninDog: :RunninDog: :RunninDog:

Sieg 04-03-2013 12:35 PM
Intermixed clouds and sun, expected high 71*, breakin oil replaced with Joe Gibbs HP2, carb tune is getting close, tank is full, time to que up some driving music and take a little ride in the country!







:thumbsup:

intocarss 04-03-2013 12:37 PM
Big Molly Hatchet fan here. Have a safe and fun cruz :hello:

DaleTx 04-03-2013 03:16 PM
Great way to spend an afternoon… sounds like your almost there on the tune.

:thumbsup:

protour73 04-21-2013 07:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleTx (Post 473663)
Great way to spend an afternoon… sounds like your almost there on the tune.

:thumbsup:
Haven't heard any Sieg updates in a while :topic:

glassman 04-21-2013 08:02 AM
Btw sieg, I Hate carburetor s... My dis-traction is down due to a float, accel pump, and other related issues... And the weather is beautiful!!!

Go LS , Savin my coin in another bucket...

Yours is running good now?

Sieg 04-21-2013 01:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protour73 (Post 476284)
Haven't heard any Sieg updates in a while :topic:
Working on "perfecting" the "responsible driving" off-idle transition right at full clutch engagement. The idle by-pass valve has an impact on the signal strength in that phase of transition.....IMO This carb appears to be pretty sensitive to small inputs and the weather changes and fragmented time schedule haven't helped the cause. Good weather = time obligations......free time = bad weather. :bang:

Quote:
Originally Posted by glassman (Post 476285)
Btw sieg, I Hate carburetor s... My dis-traction is down due to a float, accel pump, and other related issues... And the weather is beautiful!!!

Go LS , Savin my coin in another bucket...

Yours is running good now?
Once I have this transition sorted, which I believe is a better feel for the overlap and mixture impact of the circuits in the 1000-1500 rpm range, I'm home free. As is it's very drivable in 1500-6K range and under hard braking. I agree that they can be irritating due to their complexity and sensitivity........good and bad, love and hate.......they are very good brain-teasers, and patience testers.......and similar to computers if all else fails they can be fixed with a hammer. :D

Sieg 04-25-2013 08:58 PM
Picked up a new camera today that's slightly more complex than a carb........I'm in big trouble!

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-9...9N3tLSj-XL.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-B...B6BNnGS-X2.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-f...fPvsrBd-XL.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-v...vBrztnm-XL.jpg

intocarss 04-25-2013 09:04 PM
Great pics! I really like Rev's pic and the one above him

fleet 04-25-2013 09:20 PM
Excellent quality Sieg.

Sieg 04-25-2013 09:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by intocarss (Post 477124)
Great pics! I really like Rev's pic and the one above him
Quote:
Originally Posted by compos mentis (Post 477125)
Excellent quality Sieg.
Thanks guys, the carb came with a 10 page manual, the camera 292 pages. :sieg:

After years of using compromise cameras I'm looking forward to having a semi-pro camera with decent metering and focusing.......and 8 frames per second speed for action. Hopefully the focusing will keep up with the shutter!

Roberts68 04-26-2013 12:40 PM
Those pictures are quite the testimonial for a "real camera". It even made the stop ahead sign look crisp and interesting in the other thread.

Question for you, when you were welding on your subframe did you make a note of your settings on the Mig200?

I am getting along alright but thought I would ask just for comparison. I know there can be lots of variables in local voltage etc... just curious what might have worked for you.


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