Lateral-g Forums - Power Steering: AGR vs Lee, 670 vs 800, 69 BBC Camaro, Review

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Denvervet (Post 326882)

Here's how much more room the lemon's headers give you with the Lee box.

Thanks for sharing that pic. I knew the Lemon's headers fit really good, but the visual verification is appreciated. Those primaries are even bigger than mine also. Are you able to remove those driver's side headers without loosening your steering box or pulling your engine up off the mount?

I'd go buy a set today if I could, but Lemon's wants about $1800+ for a set when you include coating and shipping, and then I'd also have to re-do my exhaust to match. I'm hoping/praying that I'll just be able to take my driver's side headers to a custom header shop and they can re-work the number 5 and 7 primaries to follow the same path the Lemon's do as seen in your photo. Then I'll just have them re-coated and bolt 'em back in. Next time I yank my engine I'm going to give that a try.

I haven't had to attempt to pull headers out yet and hope to never have to :thumbsup: My best guess is though it would take some wrangling to make it happen...
Plugs are easy to remove and the collectors tuck up nice and tight to body.:yes:

Tom does great work.

I had him do some pump work for the Camaro back in 2003. The problem was fluid overheating on track days. Somewhere there is a photo of the reservoir where the neck is held on by bailing wire and silicone. It got so hot it de-soldered and dumped all the fluid on the track.

Tom's suggestion was to make the P-pump dry and make some internal modifications. Just like a fuel pump, pumping an excessive volume of steering fluid just makes heat and is of no useful purpose. Hence, the pump liner size was reduced to match the use of the car and a heavy duty input shaft installed. The output was set to 1450 psi @ 3gpm. At idle the system would occasionally groan and stutter when making a turn since the volume was reduced. When I say occasionally, maybe one out of 20 times the car was driven. On stock cars that do not see track duty the volume is higher in order to give good idle/parking performance. The tradeoff is heat.

In addition to the pump a KSE remote reservoir/filter was used as well as a cooler in the return line. Though the car has been through many changes, these two parts remain. The KSE part is outstanding.

Problem solved. At every track event since with PT-type cars there is usually a car using a standard P-pump/reservoir that fails, even ones that have a cooler. The integral reservoir is fine for a street car but for extended track use, it leave much to be desired.

One additional thing that Tom recommended, and it cured several problems, is using genuine GM power steering fluid. Hands down it de-aerates the fastest and operates the quietest.

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9186/...1968camaro.jpg

Chris, just my $.02 and way to late, but there are other options that would have given you header clearance such as a bolt on rack-n-pinion set up. I went with the Flaming River rack. Aside from avoiding clearance issues the weight savings is substantial.

As far as power steering pumps go, I used a KRC aluminum set up with seperate resevoir and I have been running time trials and track days on road courses with this set up since 2002. Whats nice about the KRC pumps is you can adjust the feel of the steering by changing the flow valve on the out put side of the pump.

I think the total set up cost me about $1400.

Once again, just my $.02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Track Junky (Post 327047)

Thanks for the friendly advice Gaetano. Trust me, I have considered the rack solution many times considering all the trouble I have had with these boxes and getting them to fit. I guess I'm just working my way up the food chain. I went with the $600 Lee box versus the $1400 rack strictly based on price. Also, my front end is a bit low and I'm a little nervous about how the rack and mounting bracket hang down below the frame, but I do like the idea of the further weight loss. I thought the new Lee 600 series box would actually fit better because it was smaller, but once I tried to mount it, I learned it actually fit worse, so I was kinda stuck at that point with just having to ding the headers a little more. I've been driving the car around the past few days and I really love the feel of my steering now, so if I can just get those 2 primaries on my headers re-worked, I think I'll be good to go. I wish I had a dollar for every time I've said that.

ATS/Lee also sell the TC series (ie new Corvette) pumps with remote resevoirs that are all blue printed. new seals,bearings, and flow tested. Tom also recomended a cooler on ResurreXion with an inline filter the filter has some effect on the pump pulse waves that can smooth out the system flow,also his resevoirs are designed like a drysump tank, and on my car there is NO Airation!!! no whine and it primed in about 20 seconds spinning the pump with a drill.
if you are having power steering problems give me a call and i can talk to Tom and it will get fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chr2002ca (Post 324930)

Just thought I'd share some information and experiences about these 2 different boxes since I've had some 'experience' with AGR and recently did a replacement to a Lee power steering box. I have a 69 Camaro with a ZZ454, NOS 69 BBC motor mounts and frame stands, and Hedman 2" primary headers(part number 66001).

AGR: 12:1 power steering box, 800 series Saginaw, custom billet AGR cap which is a bit thicker than the stock steel cap

AGR Install: In order to install this box, I had to ding/dimple my headers in 3 locations. I also had to grind down one of the edges of the billet cap and replace one of the bolts with an allen head bolt. This is the fault of my headers, not the box. Other than the headers and the tight tolerances, it bolts right in. I do have to loosen my headers and remove the pitman arm before installing or removing, and it must go in from underneath the car.

AGR Review: The first box I installed had way too much slop in it. It was scary to drive. I removed it and sent it to AGR where they inspected it and verified that it indeed had an 'unusual' amount of slop in it. They 'repaired it' and sent it back to me and I reinstalled it. It was indeed a bit tighter but after only 50 miles the input shaft seal blew out and spit fluid all over my ceramic coated headers. Lovely. This time I sent the box back to Summit and they sent me a new one. This '3rd' attempt was better, but there was still too much play in it, but I was so tired of dealing with the installation/removal of the thing that I just left it in place. This box was in use for about 1.5 years until I removed it last week. Also, the finish on the AGR box is non-existent, so it's a good idea to paint it before installing or else it will start rusting fairly quickly. Overall, I can't recommend AGR to anyone. Some people have had great luck with them(I'm jealous), but I had very bad luck. The good news is, I now have a great anchor for a canoe.

So I called Lee Manufacturing and actually drove to their shop and had a chat with them in person and saw their facilities. Very nice people. I ordered a new 670 power steering box, rag joint, and I had my pump re-valved to match their box. They said they'd be done by the following Friday and were finished a day early on Thursday(how often does that happen?). Including tax and shipping these parts back to my door, it was about $780 total. Expensive? Yes. Worth it? Keep reading.

Lee Box: 670-series 12.7:1. Slightly smaller and lighter(about 6lbs) than the 800 series box.

Lee Install: Even though it's slightly smaller, it has 2 critical places where it actually sticks out farther than the 800 series causing it to fit worse than an 800 series box when using headers like mine. @#$@#$! I had to ding in my number 5 and number 7 primaries even further than I had to with the 800 series box. The dings are so bad that they are most likely restrictive, so next time I pull the engine I plan to remove the headers and have the number 5 and 7 primaries cut out and re-worked by a custom header shop. Other than the headers and the tight tolerances, it bolts right in. I do have to loosen my headers and remove the pitman arm before installing or removing, and it must go in from underneath the car. Same process as the 800 series box.

Lee Review: Now we're talking. Very tight steering. No play or slop. Very responsive. I should've gone with Lee in the first place. It's only been in for a few days now so I can't provide any long-term/reliability review at this point, but so far I'm very happy and wish I had used them in the first place. It would have saved me an extreme amount of trouble and frustration. Easily worth the extra money.

Header Recommendations: If you have a first-gen Camaro and a big block and want to run an 800 series or 670 series power steering box, I would NOT use the Hedmans or any other headers where the number 5 primary runs straight down. I would go with Lemons or some other header that has the number 5 primary loop over the number 7 primary, and the number 7 primary curves in more quickly after exiting the flange.

Hope this information helps the next guy. :thumbsup:

Chris,

I am in the process of finishing up a power steering install on my 70 Nova. I purchased a Turn One/DSE 670 steering box along with a DSE remote reservoir PS pump. Like you I had to make room for the steering box since I did not want to replace my headers and re-work my exhaust. Since the pressure and return lines are so close to the header pipes did you have to install a fluid cooler to keep temps in check. Thanks in advance for your help!