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Quote:

Originally Posted by GregWeld (Post 522644)

Oh man -- you hit it right on the head….

Oh wait!!! Is that why I have hot rods AND track cars…

Boy am I dumb!

Just to be sure. I wouldn't have this combo unless charley talked me into it. And while I will NEVER tell HIM this, I thank him every time I'm on track. I have real 5 point harness and a real roll cage. And real track tires with some grip... And the car was "cheap" - meaning less than a great paint job these days. LOL.

Hey Bill. I like where your head is at on this. Lets get back to the Protouring events and just have fun. Theres plenty of fun to be had with speed limited laps on race courses and autocrosses. If thats not fast enough then there are race events that can be attended. Count me in as a supporting participant if theres ever another event close enough.

I never thought about it in terms of somebody getting hurt, but it did cross my mind when the guys at Hot rod magazine built F-bomb with that crazy stupid twin turbo nelson motor. I was reading and was asking myself, what is the point? So what if you have 1200hp! Crashes just happen a lot faster.

Darren

Bill,

Great post and as you are more than aware, you don't owe any of us an explanation, you've been doing this for a long time and it's great to have your leadership in the community.

Quote:

Just stating the obvious...lol Of course most don't want to hear it. Guess that is why some have black balled me for even starting the conversation. Pretty sad.

Im my opinion this "conversation" is more than overdue and anyone who would shut you out from bringing it up has their head in the sand. The elephant has been in the room for a LONG TIME and it was only a matter of time before someone saw it for what it is. There are lots of ways for the ASCS to adapt and most "grass roots" events have taken steps to address safety and experience disparities and frankly, if you don't have the safety equipment or experience then you have no place being on the track on the leading edge. OLOA requires that you document your experience and the organizer can choose to accept your entry or not. SSCC requires graduating safety gear with speed and limited NOOBS to the event to a mandatory half day drivers school and lower speeds - they don't care who you are or what you've done, if you haven't done one of their events you do the school and low speed class or you don't compete. TARGA has a Grand Touring class for folks who lack the required (and substantial) safety gear - same course, slower times/speeds; don't like it? stay home. It can be done and you guys will figure out the framework that works for you.

I haven't been at this for long but I can remember early events where a long sleeved shirt and helmet was considered OK for driving gear and people were complaining about that. Today I won't get on a track without a suit, shoes, gloves, and HANS device and my "cheapest helmet that meets the rules" has been replaced with a lightweight, professional grade piece. Total investment was less than a set of tires and while none of that will keep me from running out of talent, it does increase my odds of being able to cry about it when the damage is done.

I look forward to seeing where you go with this and am happy to help if I can. It's a bummer not to have RTTC in the spring but summer is fine too. Personally I would be happy with ASCS events becoming (very) mini Power Tours with "competition" events in the afternoon before some kind of big ass BBQ with friends in the evening. But that's just me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregWeld (Post 522722)

Finally, someone that has the means to do it, gets it and says it.
Sad truth though, most of everyone here has to make a critical decision as to which path they will take since most in the group/hobby/nitch can only afford one car. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!
My whole point for this and other posts and threads is exactly this point.
In the past, I have created the myth that your car can do both, simply by saying anything goes. When I did this 6 years ago, it may have been the case. However, hp has gone from 400 to as much as 900, speeds have gotten stupid and safety has taken a back seat.

The choice is yours. There is a big wide world out there, SCCA, IMSA, NASCAR, NHRA, NASA and the list of associations goes on and on.
All I am saying, is that events I promote, no longer does anything go. If safety is your primary goal, if drag racing is your goal, if cruising is your goal autocrossing, road course racing set that goal and build a car that fits your needs. I am saying right here is, a Protouring car can not by nature do it ALL. Therefore, at my events, henceforth, Touring will be the focus of fun. I just don't want anyone disappointed when they come and find out touring isn't roadracing, it is touring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by James OLC (Post 522732)

Bill,

Great post and as you are more than aware, you don't owe any of us an explanation, you've been doing this for a long time and it's great to have your leadership in the community.

Im my opinion this "conversation" is more than overdue and anyone who would shut you out from bringing it up has their head in the sand. The elephant has been in the room for a LONG TIME and it was only a matter of time before someone saw it for what it is. There are lots of ways for the ASCS to adapt and most "grass roots" events have taken steps to address safety and experience disparities and frankly, if you don't have the safety equipment or experience then you have no place being on the track on the leading edge. OLOA requires that you document your experience and the organizer can choose to accept your entry or not. SSCC requires graduating safety gear with speed and limited NOOBS to the event to a mandatory half day drivers school and lower speeds - they don't care who you are or what you've done, if you haven't done one of their events you do the school and low speed class or you don't compete. TARGA has a Grand Touring class for folks who lack the required (and substantial) safety gear - same course, slower times/speeds; don't like it? stay home. It can be done and you guys will figure out the framework that works for you.

I haven't been at this for long but I can remember early events where a long sleeved shirt and helmet was considered OK for driving gear and people were complaining about that. Today I won't get on a track without a suit, shoes, gloves, and HANS device and my "cheapest helmet that meets the rules" has been replaced with a lightweight, professional grade piece. Total investment was less than a set of tires and while none of that will keep me from running out of talent, it does increase my odds of being able to cry about it when the damage is done.

I look forward to seeing where you go with this and am happy to help if I can. It's a bummer not to have RTTC in the spring but summer is fine too. Personally I would be happy with ASCS events becoming (very) mini Power Tours with "competition" events in the afternoon before some kind of big ass BBQ with friends in the evening. But that's just me...

Thanks James, and you are so right with the last part of your post. As I said in my last post, and I know it is things people don't like or maybe want to hear, but for too long now, we have fooled ourselves into thinking one car can be an antique, daily driver, a cool ride AND a RACE CAR. It simply can't and do all well. At this point, I am not sure what is our ultimate answer, and until we get a handle on it, I am not willing to take the risk. BBQs, cruises with maybe an autocross was the events that I remember as fun anyway. No need to reinvent the wheel or make another race series, lets get back to having fun. :cheers:

I think for me, the fact that this discussion is coming up is a relief. I have been building my car slowly over the years. When I started following these sites people were just getting into autox and over the last year or so I have noticed a push towards open track and an increasing competitive spirit along with a push for more and more HP with each passing build. It was starting to bum me out that these events and forums were heading that direction. For a first timer, it would be very daunting. I think there is plenty of room for the 10/10ths guys and I would love to go watch some of their events, but for the majority, an event with a balance of fun, instruction and safety is going to be more attractive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregWeld (Post 522722)

Just to be sure. I wouldn't have this combo unless charley talked me into it. And while I will NEVER tell HIM this, I thank him every time I'm on track. I have real 5 point harness and a real roll cage. And real track tires with some grip... And the car was "cheap" - meaning less than a great paint job these days. LOL.

That's why I bought a race car, well race truck

I'm in for whatever you guys decide Bill. I am bummed we won't have the chance to get together in Spring with the whole gang---I am more disappointed by that than I am by missing some road course action.

As long as I can drive my car, along with a bunch of others doing the same, and have a good time doing it then I will be happy. It's about the people for me. A little friendly competition is always a welcomed thing in this hobby, and I am with you and the others----as long as it is safe for everyone involved. I know what it's like to go over 170--but that's been in the drag car--with a full halo cage, fire suppression, fire suit, shoes, main shut off switch, tip over switches that go cold if the car goes on its lid, etc. That's with an emergency crew standing by and fire extinguishers lining the track wall. The PT car has nothing except 4 point seatbelts, so I get what you are saying and the concern--and I know it's valid. After racing for many years, I've seen more than my fair share of unbelievable events happen at the track. Fire is the worst possible scenario in my opinion--and can happen from the stupidest things. Speed and driver inexperience will bring about bent up stuff for sure. Someone already said it---it's not if, but when. To keep doing the road courses, once I get my new stuff in the car (more power) it will have to have at least a 6 point and a fire suppression system along with the cut off switch. It's crazy to not have that stuff if you are planning on road coursing the car--unless there is a way to limit the speed to something safe. Just my opinion Hope to hear from you soon on the new venue.

Doug

I agree with you BIll

My new car is more race car than anything else. I also know that a NASA sponsored track day is more suitable for what I am building than showing up to one of your or anyone else's events and trying to run on street tires.

I will still come to your events regardless of what you do to your format. Like has been stated before, I come for the people and the socializing after the event..and the occasional slash of apple pie.

Looking forward to your event schedule.