No the answer is throw the management out, make the unions concede and overhaul the brands.

In the mean time, give them the money.

Anybody care to analyze the bank deals to this level of scrutiny? It just seems to hit a nerve here because we are car guys. Citigroup anybody? AIG? Come on, lets discuss this to this detail. The 25 B for the car makers is a squirt of piss in the financial pool at this point.

Darren

That's what I've been saying all along. The banker bailout is up to 7 trillion dollars. Thats right, 7 trillion, with a T. 7,000,000,000,000 of our tax dollars going to reward bad decisions and corruption on Wall St, not to mention foreign entities.

But no one give's a rats ass about that, they just want to throw GM off a cliff and pitch a bitch about the unions, management and 16mpg SUV's.

Do you guys understand the ramifications of too many large banks/insurance/financials being allowed to fail? I don't think you do. It is paramount to keep the financial system intact. Things are very bad, but we are lucky they are not worse than they are!

You can't just equate the $ amount of a bank bailout to what the Big 3 are asking for. The automakers do not keep the financial system flowing and operating like AIG, Citi, etc do. If you guys do not understand finance, banking, flow of money, and how the Fed, FDIC, major banks,etc are all interrelated, then you will just not understand. It is quite complicated no doubt.

The amount is small in comparison, sure, but the Big 3 did a pathetic job in front of Congress last week in their attempt to get the money. Unprepared, no plan, and pompous I would say. They didn't deserve the money with that poor showing!

It sucks that the people behind the banks/financials are not being penalized, but unfortunately the bailouts are for the greater good, believe it or not.

It all sucks, and it looks wrong, but again, we could be in a lot worse shape than we are. And that is what is pretty scary right now.

6. It never looks good when you step off your Lear Jet with a Tin Cup in your hand.

GM and the other two still cannot fail. Period.

Flash and Tony I agree with you 100%. I think the issue with the banks is transparency and liability. Hold the guys responsible for the problem. The subprime mess is very small to the grand scheme of fraud those guys were cooking. If you want to solve the problem on wall street, start taking guys mansions in the hamptons and jewelery off of their wives and girlfriends necks. The mess the bankers have caused is akin to robbery...

I guess the point I am trying to make is that nobody asked what the banks 'plans' were, AIG has taken 2 corporate retreat trips since the bailout money, they all showed up in DC on corporate jets and no one said a word. I do understand how the ebb and flow of money and how important banking is, in fact, that is part of the problem. The day banking and paper pushing out stripped manufacturing as a nations main source of productivity, there is serious issues, as we are currently seeing.

It just sucks that the big 3 roll in and everyone says you guys made crappy decisions and didn't provide a product people would buy. Like Tony said, union deals, bad management, 16 MPG SUV etc. While flying in on private jets is mind boggling, it happened. (It is the same reason I make visit customers in my 2000 Chevy Silverado, with 175K on the clock. I do not need the perception that I am over charging for my services)

My opinion is this, level the playing field by wiping out the unions, work on better trade deals with the foreign companies that build cars here, and bring in better management. The issue at hand is the legacy costs are what is sucking the money at GM. That is why they cannot weather the storm. The money flows no matter what is going on. Unlike other manufacturing plants, that idle workers, shift work weeks, cut shifts, etc, their monthly nut to the retirees never changes.

Like I said before, manufacturing supports 4 jobs for every 1. Loose a factory in your town, several machine shops, and engineering firms go with it.

There should be a bail out but the money should be given to the buyers of the big three products.

Think about the discount you could be given?? If you were given $5000(or??) cash to buy a US built product that already has dealer incentives???? .What would say 15 billion in cash incentives equal for say 2 years of sales? Talk about leveling the playing field. It would be a hard deal to beat. Problem is it will never happen as they want the money for operating expenses and salaries. Just like with the banks, at this point sending out $10k checks would boost spending and kill debt but instead it will get burried into a tangled untraceable where did it go mess.

Not even worth the typing as most can see nobody can give a rats ass as they will just roll over and buy an Import. WHO CARES??? Just like who cares that we are at war???

It isn't the failing money wise it is a death blow to America as we know it. ZERO loyalty. The Co's have already sold out so why not!!

I Gotta get that English or should I say Spanish to Japanese dictionary!!

Fail? No. Undergo a govt managed bankruptcy? Yes. We cannot allow a huge part of our domestic manufacturing base to collapse, nor can the population and pols tolerate it being sucked up by a foreign firm.

Many members of this forum seem to think Chapter 11 means they disappear and that is simply not true. The core suppliers and dealer network will remain if it is a managed bankruptcy.

The benefits of undergoing a managed chapter 11 have already been listed in previous posts. Managed means the govt gives the companies and their associated suppliers/ dealers federal guarantees of credit (just like fannie and freddie mae/mac) while allowing federal bankruptcy judges to oversee their restructuring.
The down side and upside of restructuring has also been stated in previous posts. People face it: this problem has 2 possible outcomes.

1. The govt loans them money WITH a wall street type set of stipulations. Those stipulations will be heavily laced with POLITICAL manipulation and agendas. The one most Americans (especially gearheads) will take issue is the sub cabinet level auto czar that will oversee the federal/legislative mandated restructuring. There are many powerful interest groups who hate the internal combustion engine and will seek to influence our govt as they (politicians) go about mandating to the domestic manufacturers the type of cars they will produce. Can you say small, green and cute? Geo metro anyone?
The problem with this option is that they will have spent billions of taxpayer dollars getting lean, mean and cute n green, but Americans still won't want to buy the line up that the federal govt said they must build. Think I'm wrong? Think the pols will give a big loan to an industry that 30% of their political constituents loathe without telling them exactly what they will do with it? The extreme wing of the green movt has a lot of lawyers and lobbyists.

2. The companies go into managed chapter 11 under the purview of federal bankruptcy judges. The govt provides loans/ guarantees to the companies along with suppliers and dealers.

The companies emerge lean n mean (white and blue collar) without federal mandates on the exact type of car they have to build and the companies took a near fatal measure of pain for their hubris and poor decisions.
I would rather trust my tax dollars and the future of domestic manufacturing to a group of bi-partisan bankruptcy courts than an executive/legislative cabinet appointee any day.

The bottom line is that the govt has to round off the sharp edges of a private sector failure, not catch the whole thing less it end up taking one of those edges through the chest. There is famous quote from the savings and loan meltdown of the 1980s: “Capitalism without bankruptcy is like religion without hell”.

Well said. Look at the airlines. Many of them have done fine in a similar scenario.

Please, enlighten us then, because I'd love to know just how creating 7 trillion out of thin air is good for our financial system and the value of our currency. Take a look at how the little beta test turned out in Iceland and then tell me how a private financial system, like the Federal Reserve, isn't in control of/or in cahoots with our government to loot out this entire country.

But sure, go ahead and kick GM to the curb and let them dwindle to nothing until they are forced to go under, while one of the international banks that was injected with bailout money, like Citigroup Inc, invests in China so they can buy GM up for pennies on the dollar.

This is what really burns me... How many billions have we given to Citi now? How many are they going to lay off? And they're STILL going to spend nearly a half billion on naming rights to a stupid baseball field? It's incredibly sickening.

Sorry if that sounded offensive. I didn't mean to imply I know everything and everyone here does not. But with the multiple complaints I have read about comparing the Big 3 bailout to the banks', it was obvious to me most do not get it. Hell, some of the smartest economists in our country don't get it either!

Our currency? That has been in the ****ter since well before this meltdown started, and we have established that we (our govt) are not willing or planning to defend the dollar. The dollar is another non-priority right now IMO.
Again, bigger issues at hand. This economy is so unstable right now and many do not know how close we have come to total financial collapse in recent months. It's very scary and real.

If it was $400M all right now, yeah I would agree that is ridiculous. But spread over 20 years @ 20M per, that is a pittance compared to all other numbers at hand.

But still, I hear ya....

I just want to take a moment to say that this thread has been remarkably positive and you guys have done a great job on debating the issue without it going downhill. I think that's a product of people on one side having respect for the other side.

Couldn't agree more, Scott. This is a highly contentious issue and it affects a lot of people, some right down to their paychecks.

So let me see if I get it.. a private global institution like the Federal Reserve gets to hand out funds to the private global banks like Citigroup Inc while allowing, smaller national private institutions/banks to fail thus facilitating the consolidation of wealth and power that's all funded by the American taxpayer.

But GM's the bad guy, them and their suits and private planes.

Okay, what are you really saying? Do not bail out the banks/AIG?

You have to save the big players (or at least most of them) so a nasty ripple does not rip through the banking system and cause a catastrophic breakdown. Smaller banks can be allowed to fail and that will not adversely affect the overall system. I didn't say I like it.


Who said GM is the bad guy? Not me...

Exactly! Think the regulations are bad now...Can you name any industry that is so regulated by the Government BEFORE the product even comes out?

Although I believe it was Ronald Regan who said the worst thing one can hear is "Hello, We're from the Government and are here to help"

Darren

Respecting people even when they vigorously disagree with us ... priceless. :thumbsup:

Seriously.

Bankruptcy worked for the Airlines because they don't sell a PRODUCT. All you're buying is a ride on an airplane. There's no warranty or part longevity to worry about. History has typically shown a severe decline in sales for any product company that files for bankruptcy. It'll just motivate more people to buy foreign cars. Plus there's the issue of all the parts suppliers who would not get paid for their services under a managed bankruptcy, putting further stress on the manufacturing sector and the economy in general.

Bailout Loan with conditions is the only way to go. Bankruptcy is not the "get out of jail free" card that some think it is.

That is exactly why we are in this position in the first place. As long as there are people that think their industry is more vital than the others, we will have bailouts. Let's get this straight, there are TONS of local and smaller banks that are doing fine if not outstanding because they did not and do not shell out cash for high risk investments.
So like the automakers, if some large banking institutions go under or downsize, there will be others to step into their places, and maybe, just maybe do it right.

About 8 weeks ago, Bush came out pleading and begging to get that 700billion bailout out passed. Yet they haven't written IOU's for all of that yet and they are not even using it for what they begged for in the first place.
The sky still hasn't fallen and the stock market still tanked. What exactly has any of the bailouts accomplished? We are all suckers and when these companies sink, and come to the fed to cash in that guarentee, the dollar will all but disappear and we will be far worse off, than dealing with the pain of losing some very large businesses.

The only thing the government should be doing is relaxing manufacturing regulations to bring back those business and jobs to the US while increasing tariffs on imports especially from countries that ban importing US goods.

What exactly will 25 billion spread to threee huge manufacturers do? They are losing how many billions every quarter?
And yet you keep going back to eveyones comoplaint about GM's longevity, so a bailout right now, WILL SOLVE NOTHING. They can't rid themselves of the unions or CEO's. So now what? Chrysler anyone?

I agree with you there, this will definitely motivate more people to buy foreign cars. It's too bad it's come to this.:(

I just wanted to point something out here: Citibank lead the charge to loan money to illegal Mexicans. They went as far as hiring over 400 Spanish speaking mortgage finance pros.
These guys would go around and help illegals get loans without documentation and even jobs! All they needed to say was that they did landscape work under the table and they were golden.
Add twenty friends from the home land and suddenly you have a bunch of illegals with 13 cars and a house they turned into one BIG MATTRESS.

As soon as they defaulted on the loan, many took sledge hammers and destroyed the homes turning them virtually into junk.

One of my employees just bought his house and he told me that 5 out of 10 homes he looked at were damaged in this manner and 8 out of 10 had extensive remodeling done so the home could sleep 20+ people.

Now we find out Citibank has $1.4 Trillion in bad home loans.
I'm sure everyone can remember when Bank of America followed suit.
All these banks were jumping on the band wagon attempting to loan to illegals. A market untouched (for a damn good reason).

I would rather see the big three get $100 billion each than see these back stabbing banks get a dime!!


Sorry, I had to rant.

Rich

dude - you could not be further from accuracy

Having first hand experience with dealing with the hispanic community, these are usually the most hard working and proud group of individuals you will ever find. Keep your racist rants on another website - you sound like an idiot. Stereotyping an entire group in order to excuse the general irresponsibility of the american consumer and the corporations that caused this mess is about the dumbest thing I have seen in a while.

One of the issues that will exist with altering the current union agreements outside of bankrupcy (and probably the biggest reason that no union managers are making any public comments) is the potential snowball effect into other industries. Legacy agreements are hurting other manufacturing industries and I am sure that those other businesses would welcome the opportunity to eliminate those problems. If the big 3 were given a mechanism to eliminate or significantly alter their relationship with the UAW due to hardship I imagine that it would be difficult to deny that same option to other industries who are similarly burdoned. That is probably why many in the government are leaning to some form of bankrupcy over a straight bailout.

I know that it is difficult to see how 25 billion dollars will make a rats butt of difference given the companies respective burn rate (I know that I don't see how it will help) but... there are so many different cause's and effect's in play here that if a real plan can be made (aside from eliminating voice mail, stopping the clocks and changing from mechanical to old fashioned yellow B pencils) then maybe they can succeed.

However, in my humble opinion looking from the outside in, I think that the only way to succeed (especially if GMAC etc want to be viable) two things will need to happen - first, total unit sales will have to decrease and second, a major change will have to be made to manufacturing costs (and that will have to involve the unions). As it has been pointed out, GM has been the volume sales leader and yet they are not profitable as is....

just my two bits

so you dont support the banks who lent money to people in america regardless of that wrongfull statement about mexicans and their contribuition to this problem, but you support gm who sends our jobs to mexico?

I think Jack Welch had it right on CNBC a few days ago. Prepackaged bankruptcy with the federal government guaranteeing the debtor-in-possession financing if necessary, including warranty obligations. I think they have made great strides with their products and just need to deal with their costs. Given their long history, I don't think management and the UAW are capable of dealing with the cost issue outside of bankruptcy. That's why they are in the position they are in, they've had their chance and they took too long.

"The only thing the government should be doing is relaxing manufacturing regulations to bring back those business and jobs to the US while increasing tariffs on imports especially from countries that ban importing US goods."


See my previous comment about the number of cars exported to Korea --- NONE! and to Japan? Thank the government for allowing those agreements to go thru...

Darren

Flash I love you like to tell everyone they don't understand how the sky will fall and how folks don't 'get it' when it comes to the bailouts, but you've yet to articulate your point of exactly why this looting is necessary outside of 'we need a financial system'.

Think what you want Tony, but I decided after my last post to leave this thread alone. We obviously have a disagreement about this. I have neither the time nor the patience for this topic. I usually don't allow myself to get into these types of threads and I broke my own rule here. I want to talk about and read about car stuff on this forum. I follow financial blogs and sites for my financial/econ information. Calculated Risk is a great one if you are interested. So is Paul Krugman's blog at the NYT.

My intention was not to talk down to anyone. Have fun with this. Unsubscribed.

I have had enough of all of this and see only one solution.
1st we all have to agree on one thing. 2nd we all have to stand together. 3rd we have to act upon it and make sure it happens.

There is only one thing that it seems we all do and that is point the finger at the top of everyone involved. Whether it be the auto industry,the banking industry,the polititions or the unions the one thing we all seem to agree on is that there are people representing all of us in one place or another that need to be taken out. How we take them out is a subjective attitude that we(the american people) have to change to do it. The people on top are not going to walk away and they sure aren't going to take each other out either. It's a stalemate on a chessboard that has the American people in check.

It will take all of us to finally agree on the fact that it is this one perception,one way to act that brings us together. When we start to have enough support to arrest and prosecute along with remove and replace the cause of the main roots of the problem only then will this country get the cooperation and results it is looking for. When you start to hear the words BAILOUT associated with the names of people who just got arrested and put in jail for the crimes they have commited against this country will you see the attitude on top change. Until then we will continue to be raped and lied to with the deception that gets passed around through all of the blame and finger pointing that makes us divided.

I don't know what else to say anymore and I sure am tired of listening to everyone argue about who is to blame.

IT'S ALL OF US , THE AMERCAN PEOPLE WHO ARE TO BLAME !!!!!!!

WE have to stand together on one issue and act on it. That issue has to be who has to go and who gets to stay on the top no matter which part of the top you look at.

I PRAY that someday this will happen until then I see no hope for any of what we are fighting about to change a damn thing!

We are taking our family holiday in orlando next year, wounder if I could be your friend :unibrow: and come and visit you :rofl:

:thumbsup:

The latest
 

msnbc.com news services

updated 1 hour, 6 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - General Motors said Tuesday it needs $4 billion in government loans this month and a total of $12 billion by late March to keep operating. The troubled automaker said it plans to slash its numbers of workers, vehicle brands and plants by 2012.

Altogether, the auto giant is seeking up to $18 billion in government funding — including a $6 billion line of credit in case market conditions worsen.

General Motors Corp. would focus on 4 brands — Chevrolet, GMC, Buick and Cadillac. By 2012, the plan calls for 20,000 to 30,000 fewer workers, a reduction of nine facilities and 1,750 fewer dealers.

GM CEO Rick Wagoner is offering to work for a dollar a year and top executives will take major pay cuts.

Detroit’s automakers, making a second bid for $25 billion in funding, presented Congress with plans Tuesday to restructure their ailing companies and provide assurances that the funding will help them survive and thrive.

Chrysler LLC said Tuesday it has asked the U.S. government for an emergency $7-billion bridge loan by the end of the year, saying it needs the funds to survive a brutal downturn in sales that has depleted its cash reserves.

Earlier, Ford said it is asking Congress for a $9 billion “stand-by line of credit” to stabilize its business, but says it doesn’t expect to tap it.

Unless one of Detroit’s other Big Three auto companies goes bust, Ford expects to have enough money to make it through next year without government help, it said in a plan that projected the firm will break even or turn a pretax profit in 2011.

GM, Ford and Chrysler LLC said they would refinance their companies’ debt, cut executive pay, seek concessions from workers and find other ways of reviving their staggering companies.

The Big Three executives also are offering a series of mostly symbolic moves to burnish their images, badly tattered after they arrived in Washington D.C. last month on three separate private jets to plead for a federal lifeline for their struggling companies. All three companies offered separate plans for hearings that will be held Thursday and Friday.

That approach the auto executives took last month led Democratic congressional leaders to declare they didn’t come prepared to justify their pleas and they told them to go back home and ready a new plan.

This week, the automakers are going out of their way to show deference to lawmakers and a willingness to flog themselves for past mistakes. “I think we learned a lot from that experience,” Ford CEO Alan Mulally told The Associated Press in an interview.

Mulally said he’d work for $1 per year if his firm had to take any government loan money. The company’s plan also says it will cancel all management employees’ 2009 bonuses, scrap merit increases for its North American salaried employees next year, and sell its five corporate aircraft.

And for this week’s appearances here, all three company chiefs will skip the lavish travel arrangements. Mulally is coming by car from Detroit for this week’s second round of congressional hearings on government help for the Big Three. GM Chief Rick Wagoner will drive a Chevrolet Malibu hybrid sedan for the 520-mile trek from Detroit to Capitol Hill, spokesman Tony Cervone said Tuesday. Chrysler LLC CEO Robert Nardelli also plans to travel to the hearings by car...........

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28012984

Why is there still Chevy and GMC? You would think the first thing they would drop would be any duplication.
Ummm, only the north american employees?

If anything GM should cancel Chevy trucks and just have GMC as thier truck manufacturer. Give each brand it's own identity and product so GM is not competing with itself. Give Pontiac the G8, Solstice and Vibe and drop the G5 and G6. Leave Saturn with it's Euro sourced cars and eliminate the Sky and Outlook. Buick has only three cars right now and that's fine. It can be done.

Bigtime Shame
 

Man, it is looking bad for the Big 3.
I still cannot believe the government & corporate watchdogs, let it get this far?? I mean, now what happens to these people that work in America for an American car company? I mean, this isn't going to shy me away from any GM product at all, but I bet it looks bad to other people out there. I think it's such a f'ning shame.:(
Meanwhile, we "continue" to send our jobs overseas for cheap labor and our own people, the American people, have to suffer. I agree to a point, that GM is a little to blame with big pay for car assembly employees and high retiree payouts. Sorry guys/gals, just had to vent a little.:mad:

I agree as well, but wouldn't trying to sell those other less popular brands be a lot more harder to do because they are already "damaged" goods? Wouldn't they be looked upon as failures and not likely to succed and not worth any good amount or any money at all? Like I said, I'm not getting political here, just bringing up a point, I think?? Just my opinion.

Tommorow is going to be an interesting day in Washington.
If I can I am going to watch as much of it as I can.
I never cease to learn something about the character of all of the individuals invloved. It seems that they are as emotional,uninformed and uneducated sometimes about what is going on as the rest of us and they are the ones who get to make the decisions on what to do.

I will be praying for the ones who need a job and may the wisdom of someone shine through and give them all a promising way to lead us out of this.

Amen to that, Jim.

I dont want my current chevy to be my last...lets hope congress comes through

Wow...I just got throught these 17 pages. Great discussion and excellent view points.

Just my .02. I have bought four new GM cars in the last four years. My trucks have all been made in mexico. Our Buick was made in mexico with a chinese "world platform" engine. Service parts come come china. When I just did LS2 crate conversion on a 1985 Corvette...the accessory parts (like the a/c) came from korea.

The quality of my 07 Silverado (new body style) is poor compared to my 04 Silverado. The interior is garbage and falling apart. The panels are thin and materials are cheap.

I have wind noise, brake squeek...rattles, issues, and electronic problems in the 07. Had stupid issues with my others.

I am a die hard GM kind of guy. My dad went way up the ladder when he retired in 1988 and I grew up believing in the company and the product. I grew up believing in the value of Made in the USA. I remember as a kid that cheap junk toys came from Japan...and now we see how that has gone.

However...I get confused and frustrated when I can't even honestly say any more that even my truck is truly made in the USA...and inferior to its prior model at that.

The whole thing is confusing and frustrating. I don't want them to go under, but I sure do want them to get a clue.

I will never buy import...but then again...I'm already buying import, just paying a fortune for the union labor...etc. associated with it! LOL