thanks, that's one of Charley's "toys". Cool car.

Jody

So GW when are you moving down to CA?

Good question.... for a thread jack. :unibrow:

Can't answer it though because I really don't know. Not "moving" technically -- just adding a domicile in a warm climate were I can hot rod a bit. We have a place in Scottsdale -- hate it there. But the kids have made good use of it for college so it's worked out.

I'm doing "due diligence" on the vinoland area first... and then may branch out from there. I have some criteria:

Acreage - no houses on "lots"
Green - and hills
Rural - but with great restaurants
Cute towns
Not too hot in the summer so if you don't want to leave - you don't have to
Close to Pleasanton for the GoodGuys shows
A place people want to come visit
An hour but not more than hour and half from airports

Plug that in a spreadsheet -- it's Napa Valley. Thus looking there first. Not sure I can afford what I want. Prices have not come down there like they have in other places. But I L O V E it there... and I don't even drink!

Greg - check out Paso Robles area. Almost everything but the close proximity to large airports...

Just got my EZ EFI yesterday! I cannot wait to get her running!!!

One question though...

I got off the phone with one of the techs at FAST and he seemed to be in a bit of a rush to get me off the phone but could some explain to me why the EZ EFI could not be run as a Dead Head system?

It says in the directions that you should have a FPR with a vacuum return port so I was like...dang, I have a 5th Gen Camaro fuel pump with a 4th Gen regulator and only a single line to the front. It isn't the end of the world but he didn't necessarily explain why I cannot run it that way. Once he also said I don't need to hook the vacuum line up, then I was confused ever so slightly...lol. If I don't need the vacuum line hooked up to read manifold vacuum, then why should I bother putting it there at all? I have a regulator at the tank. Fuel pressure will be 58 psi at the front.

Shouldn't I be able to tell the system I am at 58psi and run it like that to learn?

I had a rough week at work so could someone drop some knowledge on me please? I am feeling rather dense tonight!

Case in point...this Youtube vid by none other than the Comp group themselves....sure looks dead headed to me!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IX1F...eature=related

Thanks!:cheers: Pics to come!

Dave

Does your regulator have a vacuum port?

My set-up is as follows:

Vaporworx tank
5th Gen Camaro intank pump
4th Gen Camaro regulator...4 bar set-up. I am honestly not sure how this is set-up but my guess is that it does not have one.

My question would be, since I am drawing a blank on this one, is how does the stock 4th gen Camaro/Firebird regulate fuel pressure with its dead head set-up if everything is back in the tank? Does the computer control it? I honestly do not know since all I had to do when I swapped a '99 Camaro LS1 in my Trans Am was use a Vette FPR and that was it, I am missing the actual need to have the regulator at all.

Sorry if I am really missing something obvious here slap me in the face with it because I am feeling really stupid tonight...haha

Fuel pressure regulators are just as their name implies - they regulate the fuel pressure. Generally the ones you see on aftermarket installs are ADJUSTABLE and that's the difference in the GM versions which are not.

So this is pretty simple really - you have the pump... the pump makes the pressure... so somewhere in your plumbing - you need to install an ADJUSTABLE and VACUUM REFERENCED regulator...

Most injectors are rated at 43 #'s.... if you bump the pressure up from there - they flow more fuel.

If you mount your adjustable vacuum referenced fuel pressure regulator back near the tank -- you'll only have to add a simple RETURN line from the return side of the regulator back to the tank. All this does is bleed off any fuel pressure beyond what you've set it for (requires a gauge to read and set). You actual intake manifold and injectors would then appear to be a deadhead system.

Now - having said all of this - if your injectors are rated at the installed fuel pump pressure. AND if the ECU can be set to the matching fuel pressure.... then you're good to go. I have the EZ EFI and I just input the pressure I set manually at the regulator so that it has this information. There is no "set" pressure - it will ask you during set up - what injectors you have and what pressure you are running.

good info Greg. That's where I was going with the regulator. Since the guy (who shall remain nameless) that I'm doing an EZ EFI install for won't tell me how he wants things done............. :lol: I'm going to do a rear regulator install like I do on all my EFI conversions. I just run a vacuum reference line back to the regulator. Many said it'd be slow to react, but I haven't seen any issues in the past doing it this way.

One thing I will point out though, fuel pumps do not make pressure............. ;)

Jody

Jody -- I wish they had a "finger" icon.

Remember the audience to which we speak... to most folks - pumps make pressure. :captain:

Actually - should we get into telling this poor guy that VACUUM will make his fuel boil? :unibrow:

Wait!!! Jody!!! I found a nameless guy that had just the gesture I was looking for!!!



http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/a...0/IMG_0363.jpg

I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:

Actually guys, I'm an engineer, so nothing you are telling me is shocking my world. Funny enough, thermodynamics is something I am quite good at.

I guess where I am having the issue is I understand how a fuel system is laid out, but if the Comp tech guy tells me I need a vacuum referenced regulator, but don't need to hook up the vacuum line, then why exactly do I need it as I am already regulated back at the tank.

Greg, you said that I can set the injectors to the higher pressure rate...I understand that but if the EZ EFI knows that it is going to have 58psi in the line and that is what it is set for, then why have the additional regulator if that is what it is looking for. In the video I posted the 572 that had the EZ EFI on it look like it was dead headed. The pressure in the line will actually drop a bit as you get into it, which is why I figured you would need a vacuum referenced regulator to boost fuel pressure. Once the tech told me I didn't need to hook up the vacuum line I was a little puzzled.

There in lies my problem. I overthink everything. If I need to have the regulator in line that is fine. I will put it in just after the throttle body as recommended and run a return back to the tank...not a big deal.

My question then goes back to the 4th gen fbody set-up. I was able to run the deadheaded configuration with a simple line from the tank, to a Vette regulator and back to the tank - with a single line to the front...no vacuum reference at the regulator. My assumption then is that the computer handled the adjustments at the rails...is that a correct assumption?

Thanks guys,
Dave

I have run rear-bypassed systems with and without a vacuum reference to the regulator. Both ways worked fine for me. With a forced induction setup I like the reference line so I can get additional fuel pressure under boost.

I think you're fine running without it, and just having a static (unchanging) fuel pressure.

Jody

You're over thinking it.

The COMPUTER doesn't control the pump. Except to turn it on and off via a relay.

Fueling is controlled by the computer with inputs from the MAP sensor - the ECT - and the biggie -- the wide band O2

What it is doing is first building a VE table -- using your set up inputs - ie., cubic inches - how many injectors - what they're rated at - and the fuel pressure setting. It then can build the VE tables in a basic set up using that... and then modifies the tables as it tunes itself as load conditions vary - and the O2 readings in order to get to the desired (set in set up mode) A/F ratios for,
Idle, Cruise, and WOT.

I would (and do) run a vacuum referenced regulator and actually run vacuum to it. I know they say you don't have to - and the reason for that is the system will tune itself to whatever it reads and needs. But the system is built to run a Vac reference so why not use it as it was intended. Personally - I always figure the engineers know more than I do about the intricacies of their stuff and if THEY say to use it - who am I to second guess them. Just MHO.

I don't think the length of the vacuum run would make any difference - vacuum is vacuum and once there is a vacuum signal (upon start up) and there are no leaks - it should work perfectly.

Your job now is to find out what your injectors are rated at (not sure I know what motor you're trying to set up - or what injection system)... and use that as your start point for set up. The EZ EFI system is based off Corvette injectors I think (memory isn't what it used to be anymore... LOL) but regardless == the set up is going to ask you for a part number (normally they use the FAST supplied injectors so that's easy to find and input) but you'll most likely have to choose "OTHER" when you get to that point in the set up dialog. Again this info all just helps the ECU build a base table to then begin to modify (self tune). The better the base input info - the quicker it will tune itself and the fewer issues you'll have in case you have problems. It', like most things, the details that will make or break EFI. Do it right - do it the way the INSTRUCTIONS tell you to -- and it's EZ.

I wish I could attach the email I just got from a buddy that took my advice and bought an 8 stack EFI and the EZ EFI system ---- then took it to an old school hot rod shop for install. THEY, of course, figure they know more about everything and he's spent many many hours trying to get it sorted out. They're R&R'd the harness - the ECU - the fuel pump... still same problem... until the FAST tech was brought out - and HE input the right injector pressure (not the default number) and it fired right up and ran like a champ. In the meantime, as I've told him several times, READ THE INSTRUCTIONS - this is a ONE WEEKEND JOB... for the AVERAGE GUY. Seriously. These dipwads made it hell week... and probably tripled his cost! UGH! :cheers:

Jody - Ditto this.

On the normal XFI etc style ECU's -- it's an either or game... and where I've seen people run into problems is they tune WITHOUT a vac reference then later someone trying to fix and issue decides to run WITH one... DO THAT and the system needs to be re-tuned.

On a big motor - like I think he's running (a 502?) - going WOT will maybe save a lean spot using a vac referenced regulator? Since you can't TUNE this out like you would on XFI etc. Just wondering out loud here.

I have the same Engineering affliction as you Dave and also tend to over analyze things. I will be running the same pump module and regulator as you with our EZ system. Everything these guys are telling you is correct. I will help them out with some more details of the system as supplied by FAST. I have also talked to the tech guys there and received very similar feedback as you. If you are asking anything out of the ordinary they tend to be vague. Anyway this should help some.

The throttle body as supplied has 4-88#/hr @ 60psi injectors. They have the system set out of the box at 43psi. At 43psi that is 298#/hr which should be 608hp or so at 100% duty cycle. Since you don't want to run at 100% duty cycle which is when the injector is open all the time, that is why the system is "rated" at 550hp. Which is around 90% duty cycle. Depending on your combination BSFC or efficiency these numbers can very slightly.

Now take what I just posted and forget about it. The system is set up to be EZ! The fuel module you are using with the 4th gen regulator is a bypass system. It just bypasses internal to the module. This helps reduce temperature and aeration. That fpr is set at 58psi. Just type that pressure into the hand held controller and let the computer do the rest. At 58psi those injectors will flow about 362#/hr which would be around 700hp give or take at 100% duty cycle. I would think you will be fine.

The only issue left then would be the vacuum reference. This Vaporwox set-up does not use one and it seems to be fine from the research I have done. I will find out for sure when we are up running. Sounds like you will get there first. Let me know if you don't mind.

I would say, install the Vaporworx set-up, install the EZ-EFI dead headed, set the fuel pressure in the hand held @ 58psi and hit the key. You can use the hand held to monitor the afr at tip in when you hit the throttle to see if the lack of Vacuum ref is an issue.

I hope this helps. :cheers:

Greg, Jody and Chad, thank you very very much!!!

You guys confirmed what I was thinking. Sorry I did not mention my set-up:

6.0L LY6 in a '69 442.
GM Performance Parts intake
Setting it up to look like a W-30

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/a...1/IMG_8905.jpg

Project Red Rocket off this page: https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=27033

Chad, special thanks to you as you have the exact same deal as I. I am planning on eventually going boosted with the Vaporworx set-up and need to give Carl a call to talk to him about the controller he is working on that is vacuum referenced.

Anyways, thanks a lot guys!!! I will let you know of my progress!

Fuel Regulator Air Pressure Reference vs Injector Spray Location
 

The first statement is for you "engineers".

The "placement" of the Fuel Injector outlet in reference to the Throttle Butterfly will effect Regulator Air Pressure reference location.

In most cases (non-turbo), when the Fuel Injector spray is ABOVE the "air-door", the regulator is referenced to atmosphere.
When outlet is below the Air Door (manifold), the Regulator is referenced to MANIFOLD "below" the air door.

Thus, Delta-Pressure is equal.

The ECU-882-x also uses BOTH a MAP sensor AND a BARO sensor (internal) 100% of the running time.

We have found a difference (NPC vs PPC) with Regulator Pressure Air Reference.

Lance

I'm in the beginning stages of having a local engine builder assemble a Dart-based 565 BBC for a street/autoX 70 chevelle. Original plan was to install the FAST XFI 1000HP MPFI system on the engine. The builder just called me today and said that FAST sent him an email today along the lines of they are now offering a multi-port version of the EZ EFI system that will support the 700+ hp I am looking for. Anyone else heard about this development? Should I go with this if it's true (can't find in on the FAST website yet) or should I go stick with the XFI system? I guess part of me wants to know "whats the catch?" - what compromises does the EZ EFI system make over the XFI set-up?

Rob

Rob --

The MULTIPORT EZ EFI is NOT NEW.... it's just the ECU and the harness and required sensors and O2 etc -- about $900 complete.

There is nothing to "support" -- it will run up to a 72 # injector.... and the fuel pressure is set not only at the regulator - but also input into the "set up" function of the start up. After that - it's just going to run the A/F ratios you choose. There are 3 A/F ratios to select -- IDLE - Cruise - WOT. You set those only if you don't want to use the defaults.

You can operate whatever pump you choose... you don't have to buy theirs. I'm running an Aeromotive pump.

You do not run any dual sync distributor - or cam timing with the EZ ECU...it only controls the fueling... so you can just run a regular MSD distributor - and do your timing and timing curve as you would on a carb car...

Sounds to me like your engine builder is a little behind on the EFI curve....

And THAT is the reason for EZ-EFI!

Thanks Lance,

This is all well and good, but I guess I will find out fairly soon whether this thing can run without the regulator, dead-headed. After talking with the Comp Tech and getting nowhere and seeing Comp's video of a 572 being pulled on a dyno with no return line present, or regulator visible, something tells me I can. It is easy enough to add the return line but I am going to, at the very least, get her running first without it and see where it goes.

In your opinion, how would running this system differ from running a typical 4th gen F-body system dead-headed? I am just asking the question as I am curious.

Thanks again!
Dave

Not sure if he is behind - but I know I DEFINITELY AM! :yes: Maybe I misunderstood him on the whole "new product" thing (was driving at the time). Bottom line is, I asked him to build the 565 and use the FAST XFI system, as I have read good reviews about their system, wanted a multi-port EFI system, and thought the EZ-EFI set up was through the throttle bottle only and was limited to about 600HP. He called yesterday and said that the EZ-EFI set up can be purchased as a multi-port system and would be easier to set up and work with than the XFI, but he stated he is absolutely OK with installing and configuring the XFI system if that is what I really want. Sooooo- my question (stupid question of the month #37) is - do I really want the XFI set-up? Will it offer more flexibility down the road or is the EZ-EFI going to work just fine (on a 565cu in chevelle that will eventually see autoX and road course duty)? I just don't want to sell myself/my engine short right now because of my lack of knowledge on the subject at this time.

Thanks for dragging me up the automotive Ladder of Knowledge...

Honestly,

I think you answered your own question. The XFI is by far a more versatile system. The EZ EFI is just what its name implies....easy. For Autocross, etc...where you will be one and off the throttle constantly, making the car much more prone to lean spots, I say stick with the XFI...

I would be inclined, however, to possibly find someone who is certified in XFI tuning. If he is, then so be it, but tuning a fuel injection set-up isn't as simple as slapping a carb on there and being done with it.

Good luck either way!!! I will have results of my EZ EFI set-up soon hopefully....waiting on my tank and my front accessory drive to show up.

Dave

Dude! It's your lucky day!

You can now get the XFI WITH the EZ EFI self tuning feature built in!

That way you'll have the best of both worlds -- self tuning -- OR -- all the flexibility you want for later - or in case you want to change some particular parameter!


That's the way I'd go if it was me.

BTW --- You won't have any lean spots with EFI..... PERIOD.

I can't speak on the latest generation of ECMS, but I've spent countless hours tuning the older Fast system (not their XFI), Accel DFI Gen VI and Gen VII, and several GM pcms ... Haha, let me assure you, EFI and lean spots are not mutually exclusive! Even with widebands, getting the transient fueling dialed in can be very time consuming.

That -- ie., the lean spot(s) is NOT an EFI issue... it's a TUNING issue and or a fueling issue that is physical ie., inadequate sump/fuel aeration/improper pump size etc - which of course, you can't "tune out".

Tuning for either rich or lean (spots) is super super simple. Run your data logger... you set the parameters that you want to see (VE / A:F / O2 / etc)- make your "run" and then review the data and tune accordingly. If you're spending hours and hours then I'm sorry... 'cause it ain't the EFI causing the problem. There is no fuel slosh - no floats - etc in the ECU or the injectors, and the pump should be adequately sized for the BSFC demands of the engine/use.

Some times when playing golf - a buddy will hit an errant shot... to which I will say "Wow! You've got a lot of LOFT!"... they usually have a quizzical look on their faces -- then I say "LOFT... a Lack of F----------g talent".

I think what Eddie was referring to was how much time it can take to tune the transient areas of an EFI system that's not a self-tuning one. I know there's several tables involved on many of these systems, and adjusting one will affect others. There's been many times when I chase my tail for a while before I finally get rid of a small area that's been giving me fits.

You are correct Greg, it is a tuning issue, but one that can be quite tricky with certain combos and systems.

Jody

I think it's a LOFT issue....:rofl:

On another note -- you going to Del Mar?

Just a quicky story about EFI installation and the "troubles with EFI" that people rag about all the time...

I dropped off a 383 stroker I'm having built for my brother in laws blown pro street Camaro at a shop that are all friends of mine. They have two EFI jobs - one a buddy/customers 8 stack EFI with EZ EFI - the other a 306 Ford in the owners Ranchero with the complete EZ EFI throttle body etc.

They're having "issues" with both cars... the 8 stack will fire and run - pig fat - and then dies when the plugs finally foul out. Blowing black smoke -- etc.

The Ford won't idle worth a dang - surging - dies when put in gear - and is just generally unhappy.

The installer is telling me that the IAC is 'bad' and this and that and the other thing -- it was all the "EFI wasn't worth a dang..."

On the 8 stack - Brian Macey (FAST EFI University) finds they have the "default" 74 # injectors selected -- when the car runs 36 #'s.... AND there is no vacuum to the vacuum referenced pressure regulator. DOH! Fix those two issues -- fires right up - idles fine. It's an INSTALL problem - NOT the EZ EFI.

I'm looking at the FORD -- and again - they have chosen poorly on the set up screen.... when they should have just selected the "FAST EZ EFI" - they choose custom set up and put in the wrong injector size. Had they chosen the right EFI system.... it would have known what injectors they are using etc. I input the correct information in the set up after choosing "new base tune"....


I also found that they were trying to do a "work around" in setting the TPS. Since they couldn't get WOT physically - they were setting the TPS throttle closed position - and when the ECU asked for WOT position - they were disconnecting the throttle linkage and opening this by hand. Thus "cheating" the linear setting the ECU was looking for. Then they'd reconnect the linkage... which would pull on the Throttle body at a different rate than the ECU was seeing. I told them - You can't CHEAT.

So when we got those couple of things handled --- I asked about the timing... as it was still surging and died with put in gear (automatic). A timing light showed me 33* at idle with the vacuum hooked as they had installed. Without vacuum - it was at 10*....

A quick check shows me they have the vacuum t'd into the MAP sensor line. DOH! I reconnect this to the PORTED vacuum port.... which drops the timing at idle to the 10* (which I then bumped up to 14*). Motor smoothes right out - and no longer dies when put in gear... and off we drive to do the EZ tune... the owner is THRILLED by the end of the 25 minute drive. The motor purrs... has great throttle response and runs like it should.

The moral of this rant ---- It was all LOFT! And lots of it! It was never the EFI...

:lol: :cheers: :woot:

Greg,

Thanks for the explanations. You definitely won't catch me claiming to be the best tuner out there. I enjoy the hell out of the hobby and take pride in doing the work myself, "LOFT" issue or not. At the very least, I can say I treat my fellow enthusiasts with respect (when it's due).

I can also say I've never had to tow my car to someone else for them to tune it for me. Lot of people can't claim that, right?

https://lateral-g.net/forums/show...14&postcount=3

https://lateral-g.net/forums/show...24&postcount=2

I'm glad Bob was able to get you fixed up ... Looks like he saved you a lot of frustration there.

Eddie

Eddie -- Good job. And I too am a DIY guy... for most all things. I've been messing with EFI for 12+ years now... and have had more tunes and dyno sessions than I care to remember. I also tune myself.

I was teasing you... don't take it too personally... mostly for the statement about the EFI being the cause of the lean spots.

Here's the problem with a public forum like this. Someone makes a statement like that -- other people read it (so it's not just you and I having a discussion about it) -- and then they take that as "the gospel" and start making the wrong assumptions. This doesn't have to be about EFI - it can be about ride height and coil overs - or some blanket statement about carburetors. The point is - that they read some "problem" and then that becomes the truth about that product. My point was that the problems are generally (almost 100% of the time) NOT the EFI - but the tune or the way it was installed - or something OTHER THAN the actual system they purchased.

I personally can't imagine owning a car without EFI... in whatever form.... and I have heard, and witnessed, all the 'issues' out there. It's these 'issues' that people read or talk about that hold people back from 'seeing the light' and stepping up to EFI...
:cheers:

Eddie --- Have you had the car on the rollers during a "tune"? Or are you trying to do this all seat of the pants?

Yeah, but have you ever had to tow it to a gas station?

:rofl:

Greg,

I hear ya - no worries buddy.

Greg,

I've been to the dyno a few times over the years, but 99.9% is done on the street or at the track, laptop on the passenger seat. Best case scenario is a buddy manning the laptop so I don't pass as a drunk driver.

My last car had the original Fast "classic" ECU, which was actually sold by Speed Pro at the time, and my current car is an older Accel Gen 7 that’s upgraded to the 5.5 firmware (sounds like you are familiar with the system). Both systems have widebands and you can get the car driving really well in no time. Maybe I'm a perfectionist, but I've found you can get 95% of the way there in the first hour or so [with the wideband system] where there is no discernable driveability issues ... That last 5% of tweaking takes quite a bit of time, at least for me.

First aftermarket ECU I retrofitted was a Haltech F3 into an early 3rd gen Camaro, back when it was far more popular to take off FI for a carb than vice versa!

No comment :lol:

TOUCHE!!

:rofl:


But it WAS right after a fresh EFI install!!

So did I run it out of gas --- or was it that dang EFI?

:willy: :rofl: