Thank you very much to Todd and Cris for allowing me to drive each of your incredible cars. Like Todd said, each car is set up different and handle different from each other. Both of these cars are fast and were a pleasure to drive. Here are some points on each car:

Payback:

Tons of power that is very linear. The power is easy to put down and modulate. Torque is beautiful and running 2nd gear on the autocross is a no brainer. It has all the power you will ever need. I wanted to go into 3rd gear, but Todd advised me of the issues he was having on the road course and said to ride the limiter a bit. Maybe it was a good thing I didn't shift to 3rd because I would not have wanted to stop! :D The brakes were easy to control and it stopped on a dime. The steering was light and quick and the car would go exactly where you steered it. In fact, I was really suprised how well it handled the back u-turn. Of all the cars I drove, my car before I grenaded the transmission, Mike Maier's Mustang, and Blue Balz, Payback easily got around the tight, sharp turns the best. As I told Todd, give me a course with a lot of u-turns and sharp corners, and I want Payback. Not only does it get around the turn the fastest, it will then launch off the corner with amazing grip. The biggest obstacle for me with Payback was the high speed instability on transition and when I lifted after chicanes coming back to the finish. I was at the top of second gear, not sure what my speed was, and when I lifted and started to brake (I left foot brake), the rear end immidiatly came around on me and I was not able to make the left turn. In fact, I did this two runs in a row. I had to be traveling completely straight when lifting to stay under control. This issue can be corrected with some shock adjustment and/or spring change. It may be getting too much weight transfer and unloading the rear of the car. Because of this, I had to slow down more than I wanted at the end of the course and I lost too much time. If it was not for that part of the course and the rear end coming around on me, the times would have been much closer. With more practice, I now I could knock about 1 second of my time and I would have been a high 38.xx.

Blue Balz:

I did have a slight advantage with Blue Balz as I drove this awesome car last week at Marina at the American Autocross twice. From the very first moment I sat in this car last week, I can't stop thinking about it. The interior is perfect. It has the feel of a better than new car. The ergonomics are just about perfect. The first time I autocrossed this car, I felt completely at home. Mary gave Cris some advice on some improvements and I gave a couple of my own and they improved the car a bunch.

So, at RTTC III, I had two previous laps under my belt to get the feel for the car. As with Payback, get the car rolling and then dump it into 2nd gear for the remaining time on course. Blue Balz does not have the bottom end torque like Payback. Once the RPM comes up a bit, Blue Balz has all the power you need. What I love about Blue Balz is the ease I have of just hammering the throttle and driving the heck out of it. The car is extremely easy to drive fast. Slalom type transitions is its strong suit. I like a slightly tight car. My driving style demands that. When it comes to entering a tighter turn, I use my left foot brakes and entry to rotate the car. Mike Maier and I have very similar driving styles. The only thing Blue Balz needs to do better is rotating on the over 90 degree corners. It is much better than it was last week. Blue Balz did have an issue with the brakes after they got cooked on the road course. I had to pump the brakes before each corner. I probably lost up to .5 seconds due to poor brakes. I got down to a 38.6XX on my last run and I don't think there was much more in it due to the brakes.

To sum it up, both cars are a treat to drive and are at the top of their game. It comes down to driving style and matching the car to the driver. Fix Paybacks issue with the braking and rear coming around and get Blue Balz to turn in just a bit better, and both cars would be just about perfect.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to drive these bad ass cars!

Brian

Great write-ups on some of the top PT cars.


:lateral:

Yeah it's easy to think you're average when you got so many great drivers with a decade or several decades of competitive driving experience. Todd's pretty darn good and with practice will continue to improve.

Todd, when did you get so humble? lol

I was lucky enough to take a few laps with Mary in Blu Balz and Todd in Pay Back. Yeah....you should hate me. It was full on Donkey Kong!

:thumbsup:

That is some killer feedback for both of us. Great write up Brian and thanks for sharing your experience with us. :thumbsup: I was thinking about my runs and my usual downfall autocrossing and it's exactly what you describe. I wish I would have hopped in with you as I feel our driving styles are actually alot more similar than Mary and I. I know I ran a 40.8 that I coned away so I'm sure the problem is magnified for you. Since the front end is digging so hard, do I leave it alone and drop the rear spring rate 25lbs? Or since I have these single adjustable Varishocks and I had them almost full soft(Which probably means very little rebound control)do I swap shocks or both? Maybe a little stiffer shock setting up front but I'm afraid I'll give up front bite in the process. You said a slightly larger front sway bar may fix it as well but will that be at the compromise of front traction?

Bottom line, I want to have it fixed next time you drive it. :D Oh ya, and 3rd gear will be available as well. (2nd tops out around 75/3rd at 110ish )

I'm glad you got to experience it with me. I bet we were close to 4000 lbs with all that muscle in the car. Good thing it has one of them boat anchors under the hood. :unibrow:

A weekend of racing and having fun with your buddies will put you in a good mood, what can I say.

Curtis, glad you got to experience my car. I know you have big block floating around in your head again. Brian touched on it in his feedback. The LS engines are civil and modern. Big blocks are naturally rowdier and more era correct. Put a set of tail pipes, hydraulic cam, fuel injection and it becomes a hell of alot closer. As you see, you can compete with a big block.

Slightly partial to.....
 

Blue Balz........had the best cup holders. :D

And that right there settles it!

Glad everyone had a good time and you didn't have to use the winch to get them in the trailer at the end of the day.

Yes, I suppose you could say there was some highly "spirited" competition going on. It is amazing how much beer can be consumed with pride on the line. However, I'm not sure a knife used to poke a hole in aluminum cans constitutes "exceptional equipment." OH WAIT, you're talking about on track competition. Never mind...

Really, I'm amazed Todd typed that last night. It sounded way more coherent than he looked.

I have to take a brand new engine apart, and I lost a shotgunning contest to Rich Bermea, neither of which seems that surprising to me, but really, this weekend was a blast. Doug, I imagine I know how you felt this morning. I also woke up with a headache, but it was because all I heard about for hours last night was Blu Balz this, Payback that. blah, blah, blah. At least you probably don't remember what gave you a headache :lol:


Matt

My amatuer perception of Brian's transition issue was the rear rebound needed to be slowed down and front compression increased to slow and better control the weight transfer. Springs may also factor.

With as hard as it sounds your car is running triple adjustable shocks would be appreciated. Being able to tune with high and low speed compression and rebound dampening should help depending on the range of adjustment and effectiveness of one click of adjustment. Good shocks (Ohlin, WP, Penske in the motorcycle world) offer a wide range of adjustability and one click of comp or rebound should be detectable. The WP shock on my KTM has 22 clicks of compression, 3 turns high speed, and 26 clicks rebound and 1 click C/R or a 1/4 turn HS is noticable.

Brian - Am I somewhat on track?

:rofl: :rofl: Classic

Sounds to me that you guys
 

had a great time. I was close to flying out just to watch and have a beer.

This is what makes this hobby so fun is the people, good times and the friendly competition.

Cup Holders...I thought those were ball holders?

You should have flown out!

Yeah, nice '68/'69.

Heard Stielow's buildin a '67.




:lol:

Well done to both cars and all the drivers, great thread and fantastic adventure. This post was like a ride along, great excitement. Todd the old BB just keeps on impressing! One day my friend I hope to tear up that pavement with you and Payback!
:cheers:

Iceman! I figured Todd might like this pic... A friend of mine just dropped off a disc of pics of all the action going down @ RTTC.. My IT guy will load them on my FTP site later tonight.. The pics we show us on how the cars were working on the track..

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/...n/DSC_0285.jpg

How about the spin out video?

How about Steve and Bad Penny. I saw some in line pics. Steve how'd Penny do this time out? One of my top 5 favorite cars! :thumbsup: Info please!

Todd,

I thought about what I would do with your car and I have a couple suggestions. Increase compression in the front and less rebound in the rear. Maybe a bit more spring in the front also. I would not touch the sway bar until you do these things. You need to keep the front end from diving so much. You have a really fast car and getting the car more stable at higher speeds and braking will really help you go fast.

Brian

Here's the Road Course video from Friday. I had my new found Autocross set up in the car. The front end was to soft and the car was LOOOOOOSE. I was joking around with Kyle Tucker to take it easy on me as he was right behind me. Well, I spun out 3 times on my first lap! It made it interesting as I was able to chase him for a whole lap before I nearly put my car through the fence. :lol: :willy: I seemed to be keeping up with him reasonably on that lap. I was unable to utilize my 3/2 down shift due to the looseness of the car so I ended up stuck in 3rd to keep from doing any more donuts. Looks like my lap chasing Tucker was right at high 1:43 to low 1:44. They improved the track for Saturday with braking zone markers and larger cones. I was constantly getting lost in this small sea of cones on Friday. Anyway, on Saturday, I went back to my Buttonwillow setup and the car handled AWESOME. I was making my 3/2 downshift in 3 corners and the car was eating it up. I did miss a shift on every lap but I bet I was faster on Saturday. Anyway, my go pro decided to malfunction on Friday afternoon and I don't have any video of Saturday.

Disclaimer: This is exactly the set up you DON'T want under your car on the road course. Set your car up tight when you start road racing.

Good driving Todd especially after having it get away from you 3 times on lap one. That sea of cones makes it tough to pick up apexes even with the elevated perspective of the camera. Did they have apex references on Saturday?

Very few if any. Take a look at Brians laps in Mike's car on Saturday. I was braking well before the braking zone cones and so was everybody I spoke with at the taco party. It was really a fun and challenging course. I think they could make it a little more user friendly especially since most of the guys are greener than me.

I have an SCCA event coming up in 2 weeks and I'll let you know how it works out. :cheers:

Were? & what dates?

Las Vegas motor speedway on the 25th. Come on up....:D

I agree. You should come up and have some fun with us.

:unibrow:

Hmmm! I just might do that.. I just gotta see which one of my approved drivers by Karl for BB is available...

Congrats
 

Hats off to both of you.
Todd... your car has come a long way and you should be proud.
Its turned into quite a cone killer.
I love the fact you are as head strong on Big Blocks as I am :thumbsup:

ps... feel free to serve my ass on that platter :lol:

Ok guys and gals, here are the official times for Payback & Blue Balz.


Payback

Speed Stop Challenge: 21.830
Road Course: 1:44.2(Have an email into Brian, think this is from Friday based on my stop watch and go pro video)
Autocross: 41.747(Me driving, Mary didn't drive Sat./ course changed)

Blue Balz

Speed Stop Challenge: 22.750
Road Course: 1:44.6
Autocross: 41.660

Folks, this is how close this deal is getting. From less than .1 in autocross to under a second in the speed stop. We both have plenty of excuses but it was a hard fought, close battle. I'm proud to be competing with such fine cars and drivers.

Tires (according to my inside tire source) are worth .5 second -- between 200 and 100 tread wear -- on an autocross of this size.

An epic battle that was fun to witness! And fun to read about!:cheers:

Lol the hole way, you can see me following you, and I kept thinking "where is he going?" I thought maybe you had a hot date when you took a B-line toward the fence possibly leaving the event.:rofl: Good vid.

Here is a re-cap of our time @ RTTC…

Friday:
Our run group was Auto-X first, Speed Stop second & road course last..

At the Autocross I was still trying to get the car to work for Mary.. Car was still pushing , over-steering, & we had too much front brake bite.. but we figured we would get some adjustment in for Saturday..

At the Speed Stop Mary was getting comfortable with the car but the front brakes again were biting too much.. Asked Mike M if he had less aggressive pads on the truck.. He had some .. so we changed the brake pads during our lunch brake..

At the Road Course.. Mary drives the car on a warm up lap & comes back in because we lost our power steering.. The car had an erratic idle so I figured that it caused a cavitation on the power steering pump.. It had done this to me before.. So I am looking for Mike Norris to see if he can fix the idle.. Finally find him.. he works his magic & gets the car running smooth.. Look for empty space & just drive around to see if I can get the pump to work again.. Finally get to start working again.. Drive over the car to the road course & we still have time to do a run… Mary jumps in & gets her runs in.. I could tell that she was getting the car moving on the track.. She comes in & is driving around to get the car to cool down… Finally stops .. Ask Mary what she thought about the car on the road course.. She loved the car on the road course.. Great! Now I just gotta find a way for the car to work for her on the Auto-X.. But Mary tells me we have bad news.. We got rear-end noise! Damm it .. I just got it rebuilt… @ that point I was just saying to myself.. We are done for this event.. go park the car pissed off & walk around… Finally ended up @ the DSE trailer.. Talking to Guy Ankeny.. He asked me how the was doing.. Told him that we the car was pushing & over steering.. Kyle over heard my conversation with Guy.. He offered to help by checking the shock adjustments for me.. Drove the car over to the DSE trailer & Kyle was checking our setting.. He told me that we need to check the charge on the shocks.. but he did not have any on the truck & would ask Guy to bring some in for Saturday morning.. I asked Kyle if he wanted to take it for a spin on the Auto-X to see if could improve it for Mary.. I didn’t have to twist his arm on that one.. Kyle made about 5 passes on the Auto-X & we got some better shock tuning out of it.. We figured we were now better on the adjustments… but had a bad rear-end & we had cooked the brakes on the road course…

Later that night @ Doug’s house I mentioned to Todd he had won because the car was done for the weekend.. This is why he posted that he had won on Friday night… Driving back to the hotel that night I remembered that Kyle said that I should check the gear oil on the rear-end.. Could not sleep all night!

Saturday:
I got up & drove to the event & was there about 6:30.. Dave Pozzi was not there yet .. So I stop @ the Maier trailer & asked them if I can borrow a jack & stands.. I need to check out what’s going on with my rear-end.. I had gear oil all over the gas tank & rear suspension.. The breather system that I built for it was not enough.. Mike gave me some pointer’s on how to fix it & got me some gear oil.. Bleed the brakes.. but the M/C was by-passing the fluid.. Changed the tow on the car .. Finally meet up with Mary & tell her we can run for Saturday.. but we will have to pump up the brakes..

Auto-X the car was better for Mary but was not enough for her get the car to do what she wanted.. Managed to get our runs in .. but now the brakes kept locking up in the front…

Speed stop Challenge was not a big challenge for us because Mary could to not stop in the box without knocking down cones.. She finally gets one run in without knocking the cones down..

Road Course we changed back to the pads we started off with.. That track was hard on brakes.. We still did not have the right pads for this event but managed to make them work.. We managed to get only one run on the road course.. The rear-end was kicking oil out again.. I told Mary that is enough.. We got one run in & that should cover that we ran on all three events for Saturday… Parked the car & walked over to the Auto-X to check out the fun runs.. but that is whole other story..

Brian Hobaugh does some fun runs in BB..
Mike Maier does some fun runs in BB
Brian Hobaugh runs it in the Speed Stop Squared Challenge


I managed to keep the car running for two days with all the problems we were having & think we placed in the top 10.. Not bad for its big event!

Steve and I drove BP, & did well. I finished 4th in the autox, was announced 4th on the road course at the end of Saturday, but I see the results now show me 5th. Finished 10th on the speed stop. I didn't cut the light very close which really hurt my times.
Steve had street pads on so I overheated them after the first lap or two and they were so hot Friday that the pedal went to the floor after I came off the track in spite of driving around to cool them. They did not allow a cool off lap so we all came off the track with toasty brakes & the rotors were pulsating on Saturdays runs so I probably warped them. I turned up the rear bias as far as it would go and still didn't have enough rear braking and had significant of understeer on the sweepers. BP felt pretty good on the Autocross course.

Chris, nothing but respect for you after this weekend buddy. I have to admit that I knew your car had a very good chance of having some growing pains. We both had problems but I'm about 99% sure yours would of convinced me to put mine in the trailer and put my tail between my legs. Then again, mayble our friendly rivalry kept that fire burning. Come on man, you had Mary Pozzi, Brian Hobaugh, and Kyle Tucker helping you sort this thing out last weekend. Guys should KILL for that opportunity. With my tire advantage and your driver advatage, it couldn't of been scripted any better. Look at how close those times are! That's nascar ****! I'll get my trans fixed and you sort out a few problems and we'll have the "Thrilla in Manilla 2" next year. :cheers:

Great competition Gentlemen and thanks for sharing it on the forum. :cheers:

Dude, my car was junk on Friday. Being the Chad Knaus that I think I am, I needed Jimmy Johnson behind the wheel to get around that road course. I still think my road course time is from Friday. I got in one good lap chasing Mr. Tucker. That Carrot was to tempting. Very impressed with your car and driving. That motorcyle racing background clearly translates into cars.

Minimum of 150 lbs. ZL1 block is 110 lbs bare and my previous Gen VI block was 260-270lbs. Aftermarket blocks are even heavier due to their increased bore potential and structure. The original ZL1 block in 1969 was only 90 lbs. Mine is the modern GMPP blocks with increased deck thickness and webbing. It's been endurance tested to 650 hp by GM.

Thanks for the props Todd!

Next year you will be faced with BB I & BB II! Let's just say that BB II will be something special .. Nothing fancy but all business!

Have you guys driven each others car? That would be immediate feedback personally.