He sure did and it was a tragedy, but you cannot say that because there are OTHER ways to kill lots of people, we just shouldn't even bother trying to control ANY of the ways.

This is akin to saying that since you can kill 168 people via a fertilizer bomb, we should just not bother regulating sarin gas, because if you regulate sarin gas, then that crazy person will just use explosives.

You are hilarious but I'm not even sure what you're saying here. I'm pretty sure that re-enacting a ban that was in place for many years and didn't end up causing catastrophe is probably not going to do much towards whatever it is you're rambling on about here.

There are already gun laws in place. its funny, in cities where there is a ban on guns(chicago, d.c.) the murder rate is the highest.

Where are you getting your info? those numbers don't seem right.
Also Your laws regulate just about as good as our do.

Google search=
"Canada has one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world. There are almost as many rifles per capita in Canada as in the United States.[6] Gun ownership rate is about 29% of households with great regional variations. Typically, rural is much higher than urban, west higher than east. The majority of Canadian firearms include rifles, shotguns, and pistols. Firearms are readily available to licensed Canadian citizens. Fully automatic firearms are an exception and are generally prohibited from private ownership.

Look at the violent crime rates for Germany and Great Britain. Their's is 3 times higher than the US. Just because a gun wasn't used doesn't mean that there isn't violent crime. Also accros the pond they have cameras everywhere yet they still have crime.
It may be a little harsh but I think that one of the biggest problems is the lack of natural selection. I times past the community would get rid of the social deviants now we put them on a medication that may actualy make their problems worse, and let them roam the streets. Also like Greg said why are these parents letting their kids buy and play these insane video games. There does not need to be a regulation against them just parents that take a minute to actualy be a parent.

The gun debate could go on forever....


I'm still mourning for the children - staff - parents - town... of Newtown, CT. regardless of how they were killed or why.


I think it comes down to normal law abiding sane individuals never use a gun - or any other weapon - to harm another human being. Insane/disturbed/criminals etc will use whatever means at their disposal. We owe it to all Americans - as gun owners - to do a better job keeping whatever weapons we have out of their hands. In this tragic case the Mother (she was legal owner of the weapons used) failed to control HER weapons. Had she done an adequate job - she'd possibly still be alive...not to mention all the other victims (let's call them what they are - children, Mothers, loving PEOPLE).

Perhaps what we need is a gun regulation requiring SAFE STORAGE first before ANY gun (including revolvers etc) could be purchased. In other words - until you could prove you had a safe (minimum standards would have to be legislated) place for said property you couldn't buy ANYTHING. And perhaps households with at risk minors should have even stronger regulations.

Too bad there's no registration of gun ownership allowed.... because it would be a good regulation to have all gun owners subject to random checks to see that their weapons were properly secured. We are subject to regulations for driving -- it's a privilege -- we have to have our cars pass safety checks etc. I wouldn't be against having to prove that I can and will secure my weapons and ammo at all times including during transport etc.

As sad as I am about this - and other tragedies -- I still don't think the "evil" should dictate the terms of our lives and how we choose to live them. And none of us can argue "need" -- since we don't "need" much of what we have in our lives -- so who should tell me what I need or don't need? That's not what America is built on!

No mainstream media is labeling the shooter a "teabagger", or a gun loving Repub.....Hmmmmm.......Wonder what that means ?

Some on the news are now reporting that his mother was in the process of committing him - he found out and was extremely upset.

Greg,

I'm with you up to your idea of random searches by the "authorities" of my home. That would be a gross violation of the 4th Amendment. Keeping and bearing arms is a right. A God given right. It is not a privilege.

It makes me livid the way some gun owners allow others access to their guns. This is probably what happened in the Newtown case.

As you must know, there are strict requirements for gun safes in Cal but no real follow up on where or not the gun owner actually has a safe.

Okay :) -- Maybe we just make this - or something similar - a condition of ownership of certain kinds of guns - such as the AR15 styles and the AK47's etc - capable of semi auto firing and using anything over a 9 round magazine. In other words - I'm okay with some onerous link to ownership.... that would "make" people think about their responsibility to society at large?

Tinfoil hat anyone?!?:_paranoid

Yeah Jimmy, I don't know what to think.

First reports I heard was from a Sgt. He stated that 2 handguns were found next to the gun man. A search of his mothers vehicle turned up a shotgun and an AR rifle.
Then a second suspect was seen fleeing into the woods, now they recant that also. I don't think anyone knew what was going.

As far as the turn to foriegn versus US violence....I have idea, so no comment.

That about sums it up for me.

My letter has been sent to:

Senator Reid
Governor Sandoval
Mayor Hafen
School District Superintendent Dr. Jones

Attempt to make your voice heard.

^^^^^^^ Yeah Nick --- I can't emphasize that enough.

The rest of the discussion is just a way for people to try to vent some frustration... and get their heads around such senseless acts.

I sometimes refer to a sign I used to have on my desk:

Try not to let what's urgent get in the way of what's important.

It's all about access to whatever venue a bad person want to committ. Access is the key. Until access is adressed people will find ways to hurt others. Gun control is pointless unless you stop the ability of bad or sick people gaining access to be able to hurt innocent people. Could be bombs, fire, guns, chemical agents, knifes shanks, etc. etc.

Kinda hard to get a gun on an airplane now isn't it.

In this case -- the access was via his own Mother...

How exactly do you accomplish this goal of keeping bad people away from innocent people?

Does every school, mall, theatre, office building etc need a single entrance with full body scanners?

Do you retrofit all schools with either bullet proof glass thick enough to stop armor piercing assault weapon rounds, or just make the windows so small no one can get through them?

Access is without a doubt an area that we could improve on that could reduce the effectiveness of the people doing these things. For example in Sandy Hook they had the doors locked down, but it took him basically no time to get inside and start murdering people. Even just slowing people down can make a huge difference as it gives law enforcement time to show up.

I know that schools are being designed these days with these sorts of events in mind. There was a new story locally about a firm that designs most schools in our state and they talked about some of it.

My point though is that I think you can only do so much here without making daily life a borderline prison for kids and adults. I don't want to get a body cavity search every time I go to the theatre and I don't want my daughter going to school in a place that has metal detectors, police everywhere, slits for windows, thick bulletproof glass, teachers with AR15s, etc.

He just walked on campus. He could have had a bomb and no one would know.

Unfortunately that is reality. It sucks, but at any given time some whack job can go off anywhere.

A plan that might work
 

I have an idea that would solve several issues PERHAPS:


We hire ex military (veterans) and retired police - veterans first dibs... to be plain clothes conceal carry - body armor UNDER their clothing -- to cover all entrances at schools. They would receive extensive training and phsyc evaluations etc.

This would help veterans find jobs... would help retirees meet their needs. This would be PART TIME employment but with full benefits etc. Let's say it pays $40,000 a year - summers off etc. Applicants would be required to live within their school district. So you'd have to live in Chicago to work for Chicago schools etc. Or put a milage radius -- say maybe you have to live within 10 miles of the school you work at.


NOW -- This could be PAID FOR via -- Federal Tax stamps (ala cigarettes / booze) on EVERY weapon - magazine - ammo PRODUCED OR IMPORTED. And collected UP FRONT at the point of manufacture or import. Let's say $100 per hand gun - to include shotguns and hunting rifles - $500 per Military style rifle - $5 per magazine up to 9 rounds - $20 per magazine over 9 round capacity - $5 per 50 rounds of ammo regardless of caliber or style.


This would help solve -- unemployment -- would add to school security -- would not take anyones "rights" away... and only gun enthusiasts would foot the bill. :cheers: :woot:


What say you guys????

:unibrow: I'm starting to see the retired military thing floating around and it's a great idea. It's in my letters to all parties. I like your idea of where the money is coming from.

My other idea about making EVERYONE take a class when they buy their first gun is secondary but crucial. It would create jobs and the cosumer should pay for taking the class.

I think it's a reasonable idea but I have the sense that if you try to do anything involving guns, a certain subset of the population will flip out.

In the same way they can say why should I not have a semi automatic assault rifle just because a crazy person might shoot up a school, they could ask why they should have to pay to protect us from that crazy person.

It also would likely be the case that the people so hardcore about guns, are also no fans of taxes, nor of the government increasing it's head count by 100k+ people. You know, communist police state or whatever it is.

I think it's an interesting question though, instead of banning things, taxing them to try to counter act what those things do or allow. It's certainly something we do a lot of (taxes on alchohol, cigarettes etc).

That's a given. This is the USA -- "Everyone" has their own agenda.

Re: Anti tax.... it's why you have shows on TV about bootlegging Moonshine.

Bans don't solve anything and only drive it underground... we'll ban something and then create a government entity to enforce the ban. We're idiots.

People smoke - they pay big taxes to do so... IMHO not enough! But if you read my Investing 102 thread -- I make a bunch of money on cigarette stocks (dividends from them).

People drink - they pay a bunch of taxes.... we spend far more probably on DUI enforcement etc. and we still have bootleggers...

We have illegals coming across the border hourly.... we barely pay lip service to stopping that. Why? Because it's damn near impossible to stop. We can only hope to curb it.

My idea is an Obama - Shovel ready employment creator.... paid for with a SIN TAX... and I'll guarantee that tree hugger Mom will still find a way to bitch about having someone with a gun at their children's school...

My wife is a HS Teacher and they have an armed retired State Police Officer (have for several years) at the school all day every day.

I don't know all of the details of how they work this out, but I'm assuming he is paid by the school district. I don't know if they do this for all of the schools in the district or only the High School. I'll have to ask her.

Seems reasonable to me. It's a good supplemental part-time job for him and I know for one that it makes my wife feel more safe knowing that he's there.

One other point is that to pay for 100k employees, which is just about 1 per school, at 40k each, is just about 25%-50% of all firearms revenues depending on what numbers you look at.

You'd almost certainly have to ban private sales, and eliminate the gun show hole (which would drastically cut gun show sales). Not because of criminals buying guns, just because there would be no convenience to it.

Both of those are complete non starters with the hardcore gun rights people, because they use the slippery slope argument.

Wrong -- sorry....

The government has the right - via congress - to vote TAXES in as they wish. What they can't do is to take away the right to bear arms... that's the slippery slope! Taxes -- they're good at that! All they need do is vote it in - DONE.

Thus my idea. It doesn't take away anything from anyone. It's just a tax levied. Gasoline taxes - income taxes - property taxes etc.

I say collect the tax at the point of manufacture - or import - and we could add "gun dealer" for used guns or otherwise - pays this tax period. So you could end up collecting this tax multiple times on one weapon if it changed hands a lot. So what.... let it change hands -- each guy is paying that tax! So be it.

At gun shows -- nobody goes in with guns that can't show the taxes paid -- these are (I'm assuming) licensed gun dealers -- and nobody leaves a show with a gun/ammo/ etc without a tax paid receipt with the serial numbers etc.

There would OBVIOUSLY be some hiccups that would need to be worked out in details. We have lots (535) of idiots in Washington DC to work out the details - but my point was - a basic plan with a revenue attached to it.

The government is good at collecting taxes... so let them do what they're good at.

One example of how effective Gun Control efforts might be...............

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-34222_16...l-crime-scene/

Here's the real reason it's called a cop-killer:

SS190 duty ammunition
The SS190 FMJ, a refinement of the SS90, was introduced in 1993.[6] It offered superior performance over the prototype projectile as well as slightly reduced length.[6] The latter change allowed it to be used more conveniently in the Five-seven pistol also being developed at that time.[9] Fired from the P90, the SS190 propels a 2.0-g (31 grain) bullet at a muzzle velocity of roughly 715 m/s (2,350 ft/s). It has a steel penetrator and an aluminum core.[40] The SS190 has been manufactured with a plain, black, or black-on-white tip color.[15][41][42] It is classified by the ATF as armor-piercing (AP) ammunition, and its sale is currently restricted by FN to military and law enforcement customers.[15][24]
In testing done by Houston Police Department SWAT, the SS190 fired from the P90 into bare ballistic gelatin exhibited penetration depths ranging from 28 to 34 cm (11 to 13.5 in).[21] In testing in 1999 by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), the SS190 fired from the P90 at a distance of 25 m (27 yd) exhibited an average penetration depth of 25 cm (9.85 in) in ballistic gelatin after passing through a Level II kevlar vest.[38]


The I know nothing diplomatic immunity answer.......does it work for Joe Average citizen?

Excellent ideas, I'm for it however. I hope it doesn't turn into another gov piggy bank for them to use as they wish. Stealing from Peter to pay Paul isn't going to fly. Greg can you see if you can call Biden. I'm sure there are many ideas we can give him since he only has a few weeks to come up with a plan.

A few good ones are:
-End gun show over the shoulders sales. ID and a "gun card" to purchase a firearm.
-ID necassary to buy ammo.
-dealer card required for ammo purchases over 1500 rounds. 1000 rounds mil spec ammo.
-Ammo tax.
-Increase fines or stricter sentances for dealer that straw sell and or sell to restricted persons.
-Increase fines sentances for violators of safe handling if firearms are accessed by restricted persons.
-Reinforce laws on usage by restricted persons.
-Lose your right to own if you violate any safe requirements. Might be abit harsh. Maybe lose your guns instead of your right.
-Better instruction to get gun cards. Maybe a front sight or cc type class with a pass and fail format. Including target and stress training. Family members should attend if they will be living in the same household.
-Yearly gun card test and fee. Don't renew your license , your fees compound.
-higher taxes for " evil black rifles" and mil spec ammo
-special training and card requirered for semi auto, evil black rifles.
-enforce age requirments for ammo purchases.
-mental aptitude test required for card testing.

Just out of curiosity, what happened to the wire reinforced glass that schools used to have when I was a kid? That would have slowed thing a bit!

And the whole tax thing is good in theory, but when was the last time the govt actually stuck to a good idea and didn't totally screw it up with tons of bacon?!!':question:

I sent my idea - exactly as I posted here - to BOTH the Senators from Washington (Murray and Cantwell) and to the White House -- via their on line "contacts" forms. The White House contact page is not separated for Biden vs Obama...

That's "safety glass" not security glass... that stuff was used so you didn't kick a ball through the glass accidentally and shatter it. Dude! How long has it been since you were in school??? :lol: The world is advancing we now have laminated glass... :woot:

LoL!! Well, I knew you couldn't just walk thru it. It was a PITA to "knock out" for sure!!

Here's another thing I find "disturbing"... and every time I go to the range/gun shop -- there's a case full of these... I've always "questioned" (silently <pun> to myself) why would anyone need something like this? For what purpose? Ranges are noisy places -- we're already REQUIRED to wear eyes and ears... so it's certainly not to protect my ears from loud noises, is it.

YET --- We know why! TAXES!! For a $200 "Tax stamp" -- ordinary people can buy Silencers...


Can I own a silencer?

Silencers have never been illegal under federal law; they have only been regulated and taxed. This means that if your state doesn’t prohibit ownership of silencers, you can probably buy one. Here are some things you also need to know.
• Must be 21 years old when purchasing from a dealer
• Typically, if you can buy an handgun, you can buy a silencer
• Must not have been convicted of a felony or pleaded guilty to
domestic violence charge(s)
• Must be a United States Citizen

dam there were a lot of really good ideas in this thread and fast too. but for some reason I don't think congress will be able to accomplish anything close to these ideas. at the very least i hope they make buying any firearm like gettting a cc license. education and background with a mental health exam. i'm crossing my fingers. It needs to have some balls Joe !!!!!

One thing missing from your list of musts; Patience
That $200 "stamp" (it really does look like an oversized postage stamp on your paperwork) takes on average about 10 months to get. Talk about a cooling off period! There are only a handful of processors and they are not rushing through anything. It is very much a "soup nazi" type ordeal. Am I complaining? NO. Class 3 or title 4 or whatever you want to call them, shouldn't be easy to get. (I won't digress into how easy that stuff can be had illegally :rolleyes: )

Jeff-

LOL, I hope he didn't eat the paint chips too.

Something Greg was alluding to.... http://m.modbee.com/modesto/db_26252...tguid=ASYRd4gW

HUGHSON, Calif. —Marine Sgt. Craig Pusley was on duty Wednesday. Desert camo fatigues, knees slightly bent, the young father stood a self-imposed watch at Hughson Elementary School.

One man. No rifle. No pay. No breaks.

"When I enlisted, I swore to defend this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic," said Pusley, 28. He served two tours in Iraq, in Baghdad and Ramadi, and one in the Helmand province of Afghanistan before leaving active duty.

"Schools are kind of against the rules over there," he said. Over there, he stood guard for 24-hour stretches with a "battle buddy." The pair spelled each other through short breaks for bare necessities.

He has no battle buddy in this small Central California town near Modesto, about 80 miles south of Sacramento. But after reading a Facebook post urging soldiers be posted at every school in the wake of last week's tragic shooting at an elementary school in Connecticut, he decided to take action on his own.

To the surprise of his very pregnant wife, Kristina, Pusley got up early Wednesday and dressed in uniform. He walked out of the house and around the corner to the kindergarten through third-grade school at 7:30 a.m.

"I was just praying and hoping the principal would say yes," he said.

Principal Laura Fong did. "I said, 'Absolutely!' In light of all that's happened, this is especially the time to make sure we help students and families feel safe," she said.

Kristina Pusley, expecting in two weeks' time, brought future Hughson Elementary kindergartner Canon, 3, to visit daddy midmorning. "I'm proud of him for it," she said.

From 7:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m. Wednesday, Pusley stood his post, greeting kids as they arrived and saluting the flag with the kindergarten class of Annette Diliberto.

"I just want to have a word to this community that I stand between them and any danger," he said. Asked about his lack of firepower, Pusley said, "I don't need to be armed to do this. I don't have a fear in the world that if someone came here, I'd have the strength and the ability to protect them."

But by Wednesday night, he was facing a different type of threat.

By wearing those fatigues instead of a dress uniform in public, the Marine reservist said, he violated Marine Corps protocol and could face up to a $10,000 fine and five years in prison. Worst of all for a proud veteran and provider for a growing family, "dishonorable" could be stamped across his honorable discharge.

He said he was warned by phone by former Marine Jordan Pritchard, who stood a similar guard earlier this week at an elementary school in Nashville, Tenn. Pritchard was notified by the U.S. Marine Corps that he was the subject of a formal investigation, Pusley said.

"I made a mistake. I shouldn't have worn it. I apologize to my community, my nation and the Marine Corps," Pusley said, adding he's written a letter of apology to President Barack Obama as well.

He's a stay-at-home dad right now. The family is living on savings and his Reserve pay, enjoying being safe and together after his years away.

He will not be at Hughson Elementary on Thursday, he said. Besides fears for his future and his family, Pusley was clearly taken aback by the publicity and attention showered on him at the school.

Many Hughson residents drove by; many stopped to shake his hand. A television crew checked in. Facebook spread the word.

School receptionist Angelee Martin said she spent the morning leaking tears every time she looked out at him. "Everybody feels so safe with him there. He just impresses me so much," Martin said.

Parent Danielle Batteate said having a Marine on campus was wonderful. "Somebody, out of their own heart, is actually protecting our children," she said.

Other parents posted the news on Facebook, bringing well-wishers who offered the Marine cup after cup of coffee. But too much coffee would mean leaving his post before school let out, so a growing collection of cups sat cooling around the flag pole.
.

Thanks Jerry - Great story!

No comment regarding my gut feelings on the $10K tax threat imposed on him.