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Here is where the pissing starts....
You know this thread was going along nicely. People inquiring about information and actually getting some.
Then you have a few people that have to bash other people's decisions on what they need or don't need and how they are or are not going to use it. I think this topic has been covered before. It is the individual's project and he can do with it what he/she wills. That is why people have hobbies. I could make the same argument for people who play golf buying a $500 driver that can't hit the ball 200 yards...or the couple that by the 10,000 sq ft home with no kids. Live you own life and build your own projects. I have no problem with different opinons on suspension design and good discussions about it help everyone, but I draw the line when you do not know the person or people and tell them they don;t need something because they will not drive the vehicle the way YOU seem fit. I am not getting on here saying you suck because you did the G- mod and are running an iron headed 283, so don't tell me the same if I choose to go a different route. To me it is about the information, speaking/typing to others with similar interests, watching other's projects come together and making friends with people I would not otherwise meet. |
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But he is right to some extent.. buying high end parts is as much about "bragging rights" and "that warm fuzzy feeling" as it is about performance. Still, Why does anyone give a rats backside how other people spend their money.. Back to the Rolex analogy.. If you can afford the best then buy the best and whether you drive the piss out of it or tow it on a trailer really isn't anyones concern. It's like saying someone is and idiot for buying a Corvette and never taking it to the track. Anyways, this whole thought process is old and frankly worn out.. |
It's always funny how the tire kickers just can't seem to resist bashing prices and parts. Jeleousy runs rampant.
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Yeah probably the same people who put a set of torque thrusts on a totally stock camaro and call it a pro tourer...
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First off nicely put Payton! To each there own.
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Lastly, thanks to all who have provided technical info. -D |
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I guess it has been that long, since I have really read into whom it might be. He's been gone long enough, that I have become complacent and it actually makes sense now. Wow. I just liked it because I thought it was a ballsy comment to be made around these parts..... considering that there are plenty of cats here that actively thrash their rides on the blacktop and at track days. |
I was at wayne dues shop this weekend. He is working on a new subframe that will allow him to produce them at a faster rate and be more cost effective, so we may see his price for a new subframe drop a bit. Also he is working on producing the frame that is in Scotts car for production as another option.
I think the new DSE subframe is cool but I really like the rugged look of the tubular frame with the welds. If 2 camaros are at a car show and they both have there hoods open, one with the DSE frame and a Wayne Due frame, the one with the DSE frame might get looked at as a stock one. |
I for one enjoy the technical end of things.
If you don't like it, or it bores you, don't read it. I'm in the process of building a car that for me is a lot of money. I like to understand and at least be able to make an educated decision. If I choose to buy an "expensive" upgrade, I like to know ahead of time whether it is Fluff or truely good technology, then make a decision accordingly. If this is not your cup of tea, pick anouther topic and knock yourself out. tyoneal |
Well i'm glad to (finally) read some of you are sharing my point of view.
I mean you can be a anybody, full 'o' cash and just be willing to give it around because you like cars and don't know how to work on 'em...But that should not stop you from finding a few minutes a day to educate yourself and understand what you are doing. (it just makes no sense :willy: ) I'm no millionnaire, but i will do things the same way when i get there. (working at it !!! :unibrow: ) I tought about something tonight.... Remember when everybody we're building Pro-Streeters; You needed to have an 8-71 lung on top of that496 Rat, a Lenco behind it, 14 x 32 Goodyears and so many points to that cage that you'd lose count of 'em to run 10.50's ....when Chuck Samuel could do 9's in his El Camino on 9 inch slicks on 1-4 barrel and steel wheels.... But that Scott Sullivan Nova did Look cool. (Hey, i'm 33...I just remember those cars that's all!!!:lol: ) Same thing..."WOW!" Factor.... You can get the job done or even better if you "think" of what you are doing,(what is called engineering i guess) and.....Yes.....you will "WOW" the ones that are like you (edit,theorically speaking; those that go 'see' car shows and don't know squat, onlookers) with your "flashing" namebrand toys at car shows if thats what you are after... I think that spending the cash is more than OK if its worth it...But to know that, you need to know what you are buying...and why! Back to square one. Lead. |
Huh!!
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I missed that one Stewart...(?)
Lead. |
LMAO! When I make my next stock investment do I need to pass it by you guys first. :D
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Actually, last month on a trip to Germany for work. Well, I admit that someone with a red 1969 Camaro from Lateral-g.net encouraged me to test on how fast a rental car could go on the autobahn. I took the rental car up to 200 km/h, which is about 120 mph on the autobahn. I was just out of motor, and those pesky rich people in their Mercedes Benz/BMW's or Porsche would blink their lights or honk their horn at you. So you would have to get over in the middle lane. Now, if I had my 1967 Camaro finished and it was over in Germany. I wonder on who would be getting over in the middle lane? So, when you have a need for speed!! Gotta have a custom front sub, Quadra-link, twin turbo, baer brakes, 3 piece wheels, recaro seats (Gotta be comfortable!!!) The main reason for my project is to have a 67 Camaro that handles, brakes, and has some of the nice comforts of new cars. Another cool thing is now I have the money to create the Camaro that I always wanted. Jeff http://www.kodakgallery.com/67rscamaro |
Wow, some of the comments in here really surprise me. If you guys want to piss and moan about something costing way more than it needs to send an email to HRE.
And before you jump up DSE's tailpipe about cost, think about the R&D, and hydroform toolings costs that are spent up front to build something like this. I tell ya it's WAY more than most people on this site have in their entire car. It's yet to be seen who really has the best subframe (it's all subjective to begin with) but it sure has some nice features. I personally like the hand fabbed look of the WD piece but wouldn't hesitate to run either of them on my own car. The meat flappers in the group might want to wait for some empirical track data and driving feedback before you pass judgement purely based on suspension numbers ya probably don't understand, and how the competition compares. :thumbsup: |
I agree. Even if never on a track - the skills of most "spirited" drivers easily surpasses what most of these cars are capable of with stock components.
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It's sad when these threads become like this... |
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Personally, the only thing I NEED in my life is a low cholesterol diet. |
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Yeah....tough decision; 15 grand for a new sportage....or for a fully built DSE sub (+taxes and shipping) + brakes, bushings, brake lines, prep and paint, etc...(ok i'll throw in a Ron davis rad for the price and to kee you cool...) I'd like to see someone hit 100mph sitting on their subframe alone....(Oh, you need to add the price of those HRE's to the project to get rollin...) :rolleyes: Its not sad Steeve...Its difference of opinions. At least we are getting some good info out of the debate. Mk Elky said it nicely, "to suggest a car is slow if its not wearing the parts is incorrect" We had a comment about Stielow's car not wearing them at some point here....Its certainly not because of a lack of cash, opportunities or KNOWLEDGE...And HE could tell the difference between parts. Their must be some reasons he keeps using the stk frame, IT DOES THE JOB! (I'll try to post a pic of an original sub that was modded and finessed + completely finished (show car like) absolutely amazing that tends to look like the repop DSE unit in the end) Lead. |
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If someone wants to say "I'm getting X subframe because it: (1) looks killer, (2) may be a slight improvement over what I could do with a stock sub, (3) shows I have money to burn, (4) is all the rage, (5) is a well made piece that I want on my car, even though not a big improvement in functionality, (6) allows me bigger front tires than I could otherwise mount," I'm cool with all of it. But if someone says "I'm getting X subframe because it is the only/best way I can make my car handle," then I'm sorry, they're simply ill-informed. |
Don't forget to add packaging to that list. The rear steer setup on a 1st Gen is a nightmare. That's just one more reason why I wanted an aftermarket setup.
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I don't care how people spend their money or why; but when they tell me "x" part is the only way to achieve decent performance, then I get to question that conclusion. |
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That's not my point at all... I'm saying that I need the room to fit downpipes and wastegate plumbing. Packaging. Just another variable.
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What good info are we getting? Advice on how people should spend thier money? And the Stielow thing is a weak argument. How could he run the DSE sub if it only just came on the market? I've never seen so many people :willy: over what other people are putting on thier cars.. Quote:
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For those of you that don't like or have the need for the product, don't buy it. |
OK, everyone that does not fully agree with each other is a Butthole. :rofl:
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As I stated before, I'm fairly new to the PT world. But, I do have experience in the bike and boating worlds, two places where aftermarket parts make a big difference in performance, especially in steering/handling. My bro had a '70 Nova and my best friend had a '71 Chevelle, both handled poorly with stock front-ends when compared to a 2006 Vette or Audi S4. Maybe it's a stretch to think my car will be able to burn up the mountain passes like a 2006 Vette, but it's what I'm shooting for, and I'm looking for a solution that will get me as close to that as possible. Clearly a DSE subframe is not the only choice out there, and maybe after I've looked at all the options it won't turn out to be my first choice. I've learned a ton of useful info from this thread, so thanks again to the people who have provided data and technical info. - Dan |
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So I agree with you. You get more value from a stock sub upgrade than you get from a subframe swap. I just want to make sure that you--and everyone else--understands that the right subframe swap has benefits despite the fact that it costs more. There's more to it than just bling. |
[QUOTE=Steve1968LS2]The only problem is that nobody said that a car is slow if it doesn't have these parts.. well nobody except Elky.
Well...i didn't take it to the word "slow" but on a rather larger understanding; as if you don't wear the "hot"parts your not doing it right. What good info are we getting? Advice on how people should spend thier money? Well, we got some specs out of some products that we might be able to talk about now (i hope), to understand better what we are doing in the future and guide our decisions, i'm not participating in this forum to discriminate choices people make, to each their own, 'just trying to understand why and on what basis, to make up my own mind. when someone comes up with a valid anwser (to MY justification standards) i'll be satisfied. Untill then, anyone who wants to chip in is welcome to valid their opinion, be it they like 'flippin cash or that they know wtf they are talking about....As long as it feeds my need for info, i'm down with that! And the Stielow thing is a weak argument. How could he run the DSE sub if it only just came on the market? He could had run any other on the market..... I've never seen so many people :willy: over what other people are putting on thier cars.. Again, I don't care what they do to their cars...I'm gathering info for my own sake and evaluating the products as best i can from reading them infos here...from people that share the same passion, just not in the same manner from time to time. ..... |
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XcYZ makes a good point that for plumbing dual turbos, rear steer can be a problem. I hadn't considered that because I hadn't thought about doing dual turbos. For the most part this thread has been a respectful exploration about what can be done to our cars and why it's done. No one is really debating the what, the debate rages about the why. If someone out there is considering an aftermarket sub because he or she thinks that's the only way to get good handling, then this thread is useful. Quote:
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I don't particularly have a dog in this fight. I've got a modded stock subframe in my current driver, and I have a 21st Century sub ready to go into my second car. But I recognize that, putting aside other factors, including bling, the performance gains I'll likely get with the 21st Century sub probably won't dazzle me as compared to the modded stock sub. |
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And the threads about "what it takes to be a real P-T car" are just as pointless.. everyone want to define stuff and segment the hobby rather than just enjoy the moment. I guess it's human nature. Quote:
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This argument is a complete joke,who would put a bunch of money into an old POS?Yeah I said POS,these cars really do nothing very well except look cool.So each and every guy on this site with a musclecar has it because it looks cool!You can buy a late model corvette(saving big time on your $$$$$$) that will run circles around damn near any aftermarket suspension on these old cars.
So just pipe down and go spend your savings on your build and buy your wife a big rock! |
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