Charley will no doubt whip me like a small child -- but if I remember correctly -- the Mule was not a TT build when Mark did the car... it was an 8 stack injected small block... and CHARLEY converted it to the TT configuration that I think made 1041 HP....

I think you are right Greg.

While the Mule is certainly capable of making more power than Mayhem, I don't believe it has ever been run in 'track duty' at a power level higher than Mayhem due to the very thing we were talking about previously - powertrain cooling.

Dave

Yes the Mule made more dyno power. I did drive it at Thunderhill at 8 psi boost and it ran great until the oil temperature was too high. We never ran it at full boost on track. Even with very well sized turbos the turbo lag and power boost is harder to drive off the corners than the 427 SC engines. I think the installed power of Mayhem is on pair with where the Mule is on pump fuel. But, the 427 SC LS engines that Dave has tuned have great driveablty. They are like big electric DC motor. Demand torque and get torque. The engine calibration is dead on, no holes or sags. The Mule had an old FAST EFI system on it off memory and had a good cal but not a refined as the LS stuff.

I love the big inch blown LS9 based engine. I finally have great street drivabilty that makes stupid power. Both Red Devil and Mayhem’s engine idle below 800 rpm and have OEM drivability. I also love the fact I can beat them hard on the track with no issues if you can keep them cool and fed with fuel.
Mayhem makes more power more efficiently than Red Devil due to better management of air through the engine. We made more power with less boost. By working the blower less hard it makes less heat and takes less power to turn. We are now running it at a more efficient point on the compressor map. Huh… Engineering…

Mark

Yes I'll sell anything including the Mule. You will even get cases of Stielow books. I'll even make him autograph them . The Mule was built with 8 stack Kinsler injection but was supposed to be a twin turbo while mark still owned it. The problem was the Turbo engine builder was so slow Mark ended up selling me the car before he got the engine. When he finally got the engine it went in Malitude. Then under Jody's ownership Malitude got a better twin turbo engine. The Mule still has the Kinsler intake on it under all that hand fabbed aluminum.

The Mule runs like a freight train also. If I took what I have learned over the last 5 - 7 years and tuned on the Mule it would be faster yet. Still a great iconic car. At the time I did the Mule I did not size the oil cooler big enough.

Mark

What a great discussion!


Let's face it -- it's just hard to beat great engineering!

http://camcojb.com/temp/thunderhill%20006r.jpg



http://camcojb.com/temp/thunderhill%20011r.jpg

That's Jody in a the passenger seat....:thumbsup:

Fun day beating on Charley's junk. :unibrow:

Mark

Mark,

whats the difference in oil cooler sizes between the Mule and Mayhem vs XV, is it a difference in line size or cooler size, thanks

The Mule had a oil to water oil cooler built into the end tank of a Griffin rad. It held the oil temp down to under 250F for 3-5 laps. The turbos drive a lot of heat into the oil. One issue I have found is some of the older gauges don’t read high enough for synthetic oils. Redline has told me there engine oils are good to 325F. The Mule gauge pegged at 250F so we were shutting off early. Jackass has a relatively stock LS9 in it and it has no cooling issues on track with its Ron Davis rad with an oil to water oil cooler built into it. Red Devil runs a stock LS9 oil to water oil cooler mounted to the side of the engine. Once we had that car fully tuned up it would over temp the oil and the water in 5 laps on a 90 degree day. On Mayhem I upped the rad and moved the trans and diff coolers to the back of the car. In a 5 lap session the water temp was great and the oil temp is getting marginal. That oil cooler is built into the rad as a oil to water cooler.

On Camaro XV we upper the rad size even more with a custom core from Dewitt. I met with C&R rad at SEMA and they steered me to a larger 13 plate oil to water oil cooler that should keep my oil temp good. I have opened up the front of the car with the new Anvil front clip. I’m using my vented hood again to help move air through the rad. Dewitt is also making me a one off intercooler heat exchanger that will nest into the cooling stack to maximize core face and air flow. On Red Devil, Mayhem and Camaro XV I’ve ran a very large powerful cooling fan. It is a 20 inch dia Caddy SRX Turbo fan what pulls 850W. I like oil to water coolers because it heat the oil then cools the oil. It also makes a very clean installation. Dewitt is finishing the cooling stack next week and I hope to have some photos to post.

On a side note the LS9 based engines have oil squirters that shoot oil on the bottom of the piston to cool the pistons. Thomson modifies the LS7 block to add the piston squirters. He did a lot of testing to sort out the size and the location of these squirters. This does drive oil temp. Also as the power goes up so do the heat rejection requirements.

On your question on oil line sizes. I’ve been running -10 AN for cooling lines. I have run 12 AN but the 10 AN seems fine. I don’t have the sizes of all of the different coolers, sometimes it is hard to get the heat rejection rates or to know what you need without just testing it.

Hope that helps

Mark

Hey Mark, et all; thanks for the awesome detailed info on topics that inevitably come up for many of us both during and after an initial build. It's great to have good, experienced, first-hand, engineering-driven info like this. I really hope you have time to capture some of this for your next book :-)

G.

It is amazing how much more complicated this get with every extra horsepower. All the heat you have to deal with is amazing.

When I helped out on a Turbo drag car that was running high 6 second passes. We would put 40 lbs of ice in an aluminum 20 gallon fuel cell and water to air intercooler and in one 1/4 mile pass you would have luke warm bath water. 4 10lbs bags of ice in a quarter mile.

That just goes to show how much work building a big Hp road race car is and why most big race teams don't run huge power.

Thanks for the insight Mark, I feel like I can go home for the day after I learned something. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I overheat the transmission in my Z06 in about 15 minutes (Sebring, Homestead). It's the current limiting factor on my car on track days. Packaging the coolers are hard to do, but they are absolutely required.

When you quote your oil temps where are you measuring it - before or after it enters the engine ?

Are you water/oil coolers plumbed to the cold or hot side of the radiator ?

What is your airflow path for the rear mounted coolers ? I have mounted them in the tail panel before that seems like a low pressure area but I have heard you can actually get reversed air flow in there if you have a somewhat "open" trunk like I do. Where do you pick up your intake air for rear mounted coolers ?

I finally got the Anvil parts.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps56e07723.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps17af7d17.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps0aa24acc.jpg

The fenders, inner fender wells, front valance, and hood saves approx. 125 lbs.

I can also fit a 11 inch wide front wheel!

Nice well made parts that fit well.

Mark

Okay -- so how you going to work that in the paint scheme! No friggin' way you can cover those parts up!!


:thumbsup:

:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :cheering:

told 'ya! :unibrow:

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...pseff93e33.jpg

Matt has the exhaust cut outs done

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...psf99eb369.jpg

The carbon rear bumper is crazy light. Looks cool also.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps45f7a89e.jpg

Mark, I say you paint this one a super dark grey, leave the front end bare and tint the clear coat to make it subtle...

Just a thought..

Matt

Oh and the discussion in this thread is worth a lot of money to some students.

Have them Dutch Boys make it look like metal and everyone here will keep the weight savings a secret. :unibrow:

I was @ Anvil last week & saw this parts in person.. Super light! Nice to see them fit up on a car.. What size of tire will you be able to run on the front?

look like some seriously good quality pieces right there.

x 2 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Awesome build once again, I am going to have to take a look at reinforcing my quadralink panhard mount like that too.

It does Mike, thank you. I dabble in heavy industrial applications but usually dealing with the rolling element vs. babbit side. The proper selection of the lubricant type, delivery systems, cooling, filtering, structure rigidity, etc. are all very similar.

In the end, the rubber meeting the road will flesh out the weaknesses. Thanks for sharing.

Lookin great Mark! Question do you plan to have this one out emailer this year then Mayem last year?? Or will it be another one test & tune and off to Vegas?

Not sure yet. I'm still tired from SEMA this year. I'm toying with the idea of getting this car out early this season less paint. Might make is easier to tune and change things that need to be modified. Flat black and raw carbon could look cool for a few events.

Someone asked tire size on the front. I’m not sure yet. I need to evaluate some of new tires due to my ability to run a bigger tires in the front and back. Tires are “black magic” bigger is not always faster. “It is not the size of the dog in the fight it is the fight in the dog”. Due to the changes in this car over Mayhem and Red Devil we will need to rebalance the car once we settle in on tires. If all goes to plan this car should be faster than the other cars.

Brian Thomson is scheming on making even more power. We have some new parts to test that may make a bit more power. I’m not sure we need more power but it can’t hurt…

I really enjoy the events I can get to and I don’t want to add too much change into this car so I can’t get it done by the middle of summer.

Man those CF pieces look great. When you do paint it, I'd find a way to show off that the panels are CF. Maybe make it part of an accent stripe or something. In the meantime, going flat black and CF for a few events sounds badass also. Gives it that hardcore test mule/race car in development look.

Looks like you are going for super light weight. Maybe no paint or the bare minimum is the way to go. It'll be wicked no matter how the exterior looks.

Go black Mark!:thumbsup: Don't know if you've ever done a black car. I've seen grey with Mule, red with Red Witch and Red Devil, silver with Mayhem. I know you've done many cars. Since this car is Camaro XV. Kind of an ode to Camaro X with a Roman numeral name so to speak, but totally opposite in terms of power, weight, etc, then it should be opposite in looks too. So, I know "X" was white, make "XV" black. Then the carbon fiber would just pop with a black body. :hail:

Thanks for the input. But I'll NEVER have a black car. They look great when someone elso owns them and cleans them. If I had a black car it will be matt black. :) Talk to Joe and Paul. I'd ruin a black car rock chips and swirl marks all over it... LOL

Mark

Matte Fathom Green with the graphics being the exposed gloss carbon could be interesting. No matter the color or graphics I like the direction of this build........keep the pedal down. :thumbsup:

Funny thing is I feel the same way. Black is beautiful when it's clean, but I'm like you, I would ruin it. I would not keep it clean. I like black on someone elses car.

Not to mention, black car in dead of summer on asphalt would need a killer Air conditioner, and a cool suit. The car is looking great Mark! Those carbon parts sure fit good. Any guesses at finished weight? I'll guess 3,000 lbs. :cheers: looking forward to seeing it run at Motorstate! :thumbsup:

I think I am the only one that doesn't care what color you paint it......

11" wheel in the front?....305/30-19:thumbsup: Hobaugh ran very close to you with much less power, that has to be in the back of your mind. I understand the engineering behind "bigger tires are not always faster" but isn't grip king?

I'm curious what those Anvil parts actually weigh. I believe they are 125 lbs lighter than a totally stock setup, but did you run full steel hoods and inner fenders before ?

Anyway if you happen to weigh them let us know. I agree the fit is fantastic, just don't expect that out of aftermarket or composite parts, put the two together and to have that nice of a fit is amazing.

also, do you measure oil temp before or after it goes through the engine ?

New parts looks great! I've been thinking about going with grand sport style stripes or some other way to show them off as well.

Could?? WOULD! :thumbsup:

I'd add a couple hundred more to that for my guess.