That's where SUTTON is worth his weight in gold -- and he's not svelte! LOL



He talks to me before I go out - and reminds me to sneak up on things - and that helps! Just having someone there to calm you down - talk some of the adrenalin off... The car gets better because he knows what to do when I tell him it's doing "X" --- and he makes my driving better because he keeps me back from the ledge. HAHAHAHAHA It's true though!

Got the masters in place, will make up the lines tomorrow. This is getting stupid working on two cars at once, and posting crap.

http://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/M...DSC01150-L.jpg

http://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/M...DSC01154-L.jpg

Hang in there Ron! :snapout:

You're an inspiration to all of us! I for one know that your build is inspiring my next one entirely!

Looking good. Curious to see the difference in brake pressures.

You need to hire a cute marketing/social media girl so you can stay focused...on the "working on cars part" :lol:

Very Racy! You might be fast with brakes on both the front and the rear. LOL

Ron, which inner seals were you running before? What is the surface finish on your axles?

There are not awesome billet seals for 35 spline so I just put these in Rich's car. Allstar number 72098

http://allstarperformance.com/product.htm?prod=747

We weren't having a problem, It just really upped the maintenance routine knowing the gear lube washed the grease off the bearings. The more I thought about it, gear lube is plenty good for the bearings but the unknown was how much lube are we getting there. USCA in St Louis and the Motorstate....we'll see how it goes.

I was running the billet style aluminum housing with a single style seal that Moser provides. Moser doesn't do much on the finish of those axles, so I called Speedway got the O.D. that the axle should be at the seal surface. Took it to a machine shop and polished it on a crank polisher to that O.D.

Looks like the new setup works pretty well, at least pressure wise, haven't driven it yet. I seem to be able to adjust the pressures between 1200psi front and 800psi rear, and then opposite that, by adjusting the balance bar. I bought a 7/8 master just in case for the front, I may install it after driving it, but at least I'm close. Can't wait to see if it feels different.

Ron are you running 6Ps? If so, what size masters? I'll have to check, but I think Baer spec'd 3/4" front and 15/16" rear (14" rotors).

After checking the pressures with the balance bar in the middle. 3/4F-3/4R Masters. The pressures were 1050 rear / 950 front. Adjusting the bar I could get it 1200 F/ 800R and then reverse it 1200R/ 800F with just a turn of the knob. It did seem to favor the rear pressure wise, so I may change the rear to 7/8.


My system has 6s front with 15" rotors. 6p rear with 14" rotors, and 3/4" masters front and rear.

Is there a front/rear psi target or ballpark you are aiming for?

I'm going to start in the middle, 950ish front and back, dial in the rear brake till I get them to lock up on the street, then back it off (then recheck the pressures). The rest will be done with a temp gun at the track.

I'm so used to this car the way it was, really want to see if rear brake will make any difference.

Oh...... Just Stop it!





LOL

I read thru this -- didn't really find any particular nugget of info to hang a hat on... such as 60/40 or whatever....

What I did find --- was a mindset.... which is --- Race cars with race tires are to be thought of differently than street cars with street tires. Important only because a lot of the things we hear and base info off of may be "street" info rather than "race" info. The math used alone is almost DOUBLE using the sticky race tire with a coefficient of 1.5 versus the street tire of .08 makes a huge difference in what the tires can handle and their stopping distances.

Weight bias - front to rear - and more importantly weight TRANSFER under braking... I know my Mustang doesn't nose dive like my street cars do... etc.


http://www.stoptech.com/technical-su...alance-matters

I bet it is spot on with the 3/4 and 3/4. I know you are getting a little more pressure in the rear, but I bet you have a touch of air in the line up front. Even if you do not your weight bias, if I remember correctly, is 49 front and 51 rear. Think you will be fine with the bias already built into the caliper piston size and rotor size compared to the front.

Drive that bitch and lets find out.

Nose dive, per se, has very little to do with the amount of load transferred forward under braking. Only by whatever amounts the actual nose dive in the front lowers the sprung mass CG and the tail lifting in the rear raises it combine to make an overall change in the CG height will there be any change in the load transfer. Unless your Mustang has undergone a fairly serious CG lowering exercise, it will very likely transfer more % forward during a max-effort stop than your street cars do.


Minor nit to pick - the only weight that moves forward under braking is fluids in partially filled containers/reservoirs (gas, oil, coolant, W/S washer. brake fluid, etc.) and unrestrained cargo/passengers.


Norm

What Greg was saying was not that the CG is moving, but that due to the moment exhibited about the CG during breaking, there is a substantial load increase at the front tires and reduction at the rear tires. How the car reacts to this transfer involves more than the position of the CG - which is what I think you are alluding to in that his Mustang doesn't dive like a street car.

Hope you're taking notes so you can get that parts runner truck of yours DIALED.

Well . . . sort of.

The point that I'm really trying to get across is that "nose dive" neither causes forward load transfer nor is it even a particularly good representation of how much forward LT is happening.

Only that "some is" (along with some general implications regarding values of the applicable geometric anti effects).


Norm

Funny Greg, that nugget your looking for is to truly not take anything for granted. Don't assume anything, just because parts are new, no guarantees that they will work properly. I still say the setup I was running should have been at least been in the ball park, the new master was just defective.

Instead of taking the extra day or two to check everything, my A.D.D. once again got the better of me. Too many projects not enough focus. Payton sent me his pressure gauges 2 years ago, but they didn't fit my calipers so I never checked.

I am definitely not an analysis to paralysis guy, I put things together and beat the sh*t out of it to find the week links. Now that I'm focused on the brakes, I'll screw with them until they work. There are so many variables with this crap, I feel the charts only get you in the ball park, the rest is all on you.

My car is the only one I've driven on a road course, so honestly I didn't know what "RIGHT" was. I can sure clue you in to what wrong is though.LOL

Here --- Let me explain it to you....


When I go hard into a corner at speed and I stomp on the brakes while turning in -- the weight transfers to the front - and the rear loses grip -- which makes the ass end of the car swap with the front end of the car.

I don't really care about the technical details or terminology.... I have a real good understanding of what to do, and what not to do, to get around the track. Ron Sutton explained it all to me -- "be nice to the tires". Good enough.

Well, I hope this edit ↓↓↓ reads better for you. I really don't like having to use poor terminology to get the main point across, but I guess I have to make exceptions from time to time.



Sorry, Ron.


Norm

Well I disagree with the last statement. It either transfers weight or force to the front tires or it it does not. We all know that it does. Works exactly the same way on the other end with acceleration. So you are stating no weight is transfered to the rear wheels when a drag car leaves the line with the front tires in the air?

No - what he is saying is a bit clearer now but the cause and effect is backwards.

He is saying nose dive doesn't cause weight transfer - which is correct because nose dive is an effect of weight transfer not a cause.

He is also saying that nose dive doesn't tell you how much weight is transferring which is also true due to the number of factors involved. Nose dive is simply an indication that weight is being transferred.

Greg <<<<<<< rattling around in his bag... AH! Here it is.... Beginning to transfer fluid....


Norm - Semantics and engineering gibberish aside. Anyone that has ever driven a car understands what "the point" is.

When the brakes are applied hard - especially during road racing or auto crossing etc - the front brakes need more braking power and the rear will need somewhat less - due to the coefficient of the tire / pavement / loading on the front vs the rear.

The amounts are all variable due to speed attained prior to the need to brake... and somehow the brain and the leg discuss this phenomena and come up with a plan. What the leg and the brain NEVER DO... is take the time to figure out if it's fluid transfer - nose dive - motion of the ocean - mass of the ass.... etc. The leg then carries out the "plan" and applies pressure on a flat pad attached to a lever - which then transfers that pressure to fluid - and that pressure is applied to more flat pads which press against rotating discs of steel.... and when the brain says -- I need more pressure - the leg applies more pressure and the previous technical analysis is multiplied -- or decreased if the brain said it wants less pressure - until the brain says - that's enough. Then the leg is told to switch positions and press on another flat pad attached to a different lever. This lever can now be electronic or mechanical but it's basic function is to transfer a different fluid - which, when mixed with the proper amount of air - and compressed - and lit - explodes in a controlled fashion and creates more pressure which pushes down on a different flat pad attached to a lever. Well... you get the point.


I think I have a better understanding of how this all works now. It's all about flat pads and levers and pressures and fluids of various viscosity. Funny when I think about it - this whole thing has another commonality. All these pads and fluids etc create heat. I'll have to do some reading about that.

Thankfully I drive by feel and learn from images more than theories and equations.

http://www.pbase.com/996sps/image/14...7/original.jpg

I've learned from images like this that sometimes rear brakes just aren't that important. :D

but theories and equations help you further understand and make improvments.

Reminds me of a story of a novice body man watching a 300 year old veteran work metal.
The novice " I see you are using the off dolly technique"
The veteran "What? I have no idea what you are ******* saying. I just hit the metal and it does what ever I ***** want it to do".


Now back to more pictures.

Thank you.

When cause and effect get mixed up, you can end up making wrong conclusions. Using the relative amount of nose dive between a race Mustang and somebody's DD (what started this tangent off) to suggest that the DD transfers more weight forward is a classic example.


Sieg - I also drive by feel, and I don't have to be on a track to be consciously aware that I am. On the track, I'm also driving with some awareness of the sounds of cornering. The engineer is on break during such times ands deals with things later.


Norm

It was never stated that a daily driver transfers more weight/force...just that a street car normally has more front dive. We all understand that the amount of front dive a car has under braking has to do with the spring rate, shock dampening, anti-dive built into the front suspesion, rate of deceleration, etc.

Back to our regularly scheduled thread "As the Car Stops" starring Good Ron as a middle aged car builder/boy racer with no rear brakes. When we last left off, Good Ron had discovered that his Mustang never had rear brakes due to a bad master...that is where the journey started as he replaced the faulty master with 2 new racy masters and a balance bar system. Tune in next week when you will hear Good Ron say, "My fricken car stops awesome! Why did I wait 2 years to fix this crap?"

My guess to the answer to that question is: It was easier to build an AMX than it was to take 10 minutes to diagnose the problem.

Bite me hard!!!!

:lmao: You guys kill me. I LOVE IT!

My guess is... kinda like having to do something you know you should have.. and the longer it goes without being done, the harder it is to swallow your pride and just do it.

That or he was just lazy. Yeah..Probably lazy. :D

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Norm --- It's all good and we all had some fun with it.



My favorite non-engineering statement... "Punch it! I know the road!"

Let me simplify this for Greg and Norm. Has anybody every used a teeter totter? :lol:

:_paranoid

with those two involved try a trebuchet LOL

Got the gas pedal made, and the bias adjuster mount done. Made the go pedal twice as big as the brake. Still haven't driven it, will flog it tomorrow.

http://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/M...DSC01158-L.jpg

http://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/M...DSC01170-L.jpg

http://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/M...DSC01160-L.jpg

http://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/M...DSC01165-L.jpg

http://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/M...DSC01163-L.jpg

Dude! All of that AND the TEXT TRAIN TOO!


What a multitasker!!!


All I did today was drive 4 hours round trip to buy a pallet jack... LOL

Got the car out and flogged it pretty hard with the new masters. 120 to 0 stops were pretty good, the dialing in process was a little hairy. It is easy to dial in enough rear brake to make the rear pass the front in a panic stop, if you don't pay attention.