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The more people watching, the more people buying parts. Makes sense to me.
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Great insight Bret.... I think there has been too much focus on "the winner" -- yet I think the way to look at the "event(s)" is a "winner" against "X".... Your summation was just excellent. |
Sure, as a driver or athlete or competitor of any event, you want more spectators, and I get that. Hell, it was a great time with the hundreds of spectators watching us all do the peanut autoX at GG Pleasanton this weekend.
But as a spectator who would at some point like to be a competitor, you start getting over a thousand spectators and at some point they don't have access to the pits, the cars, the drivers. That's a big part of what makes this an event so great from a spectator's point of view. |
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The other point was that if this is to continue to be a TV event [and I hope it will] a crowd always makes things look more energetic. A good crowd can make even a golf game look kinda exciting. Well, ok...up to a point:) |
Quoted as this is a great post, Bret.
I agree with everything you're saying here, and I definitely agree with the facility not exactly being conducive to spectators. As you noted, spectators bring a level of energy to the event, as well as create the (pre and post) buzz about the event. :thumbsup: Quote:
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I hate to be "opining" here, yet again -- but I will... just this once more... :unibrow:
The track management (SMMS) gave me the "what for" about crowd management - explaining "the kill zone" etc to me. It was really helpful and once he understood that I CARED about what he was telling me -- we got on page 1 and I did my job <highly paid by the way!>. I will say that I hardly had to do anything except to ASK the crowd to back up two or three steps -- and they IMMEDIATELY responded and did what I asked. WHAT A GREAT CROWD. Not one person mouthed off... I was polite to them - they were polite to me. What happens - as you all know - is one person leans in for a better look or camera angle - the next person takes a step out and so on - next thing you know -- the whole line has moved. At the lunch break I added one cone in line with me and where the track manager asked me to keep them.... EVERYONE knew what that cone was for - and I didn't have to ask a single person to step back after that. WHAT A GREAT CROWD. You'd see someone step out to take a photo - you'd see them notice the cone and the line - and they made sure to step back. As long as that was happening - I let them self manage. It's busy out there - You're watching the start line - your fellow track workers - the crowd.... it could have easily gotten "out of hand" but it didn't... because that was an "experienced" crowd. They got it. They wanted to be there - and they want the event to work. It was great to see people be so "into it". If the crowd becomes more "random" -- i.e., friends bringing friends etc and it gets to be more "non" car people.... Then I'd just ask that the corner workers or flag wavers etc have at least one extra set of eyes and ears. A couple of times I enlisted friends in the crowd to help me... but since they didn't have the official shirt on - they didn't get the same "reaction" that I got (maybe it's my booming voice? LOL). My point is - everyone out there was on their most spectacular behavior! Double that size -- we'd just need some "crime scene tape" or something in order to cordon areas off - or to create a "keep clear" area back from the track. |
Well,I will say this.Seeing MR.Weld w/his Yellow shirt on, had me always on my best behavior.Mr.Weld as did all of the other event Staff did an awesome job.They kept the autograph seeker's at bay,pretty much.And Kevin was able to get some qualtiy time w/ AJ.:lol: :lol:
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The minute I saw you - I knew you were one of "those kids"..... :rofl: :woot: |
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Rest assured that we are continuing to monitor this discussion and a couple of others with regards to the OUSCI and other street car events throughout the country. There are a lot very well thought out observations, suggestions and feedback. For sure, this event has evolved and grown, and while most of it has been planned, there's been some great organic growth as well.
We continue to see more and more interest in the event from participants, spectators, sponsors, manufacturers etc. We will listen to all the feedback and please understand, try everything in our power to make this a safe, fun and relevant event for the industry and hobby. |
I was out at Spring Mountain today, and in an informal conversation with one of their senior officers, he was very complimentary regarding the professionalism and conduct of both the participants and spectators during this year's event -- self policing -- a nice job by all! Like most car guys, I go to events like this to look under the well-prepared cars, talk to their builders, and then watch them close-up to see how their mods perform. You could pack more spectators into an arena like Las Vegas Motor Speedway with big grandstands, but you would lose that close contact with the vehicles and the participants, and even with the sponsor's and part's suppliers (except for big decals on the fenders that you might see from the stands). My $.02 worth...
Pappy |
I hear you about the crowd Greg. There were several times in the pits that I played safety Nazi, and each time the people were totally cool about it. Usually they were having so much fun that they did not see what was happening around them.
Jimi, thanks for for the feedback. I do believe that the event should favor the street category. Street tires, street gas (no race gas), and if you really want to be picky, late model emissions legality. All three are required for a late model car to be legally licensed. Policing all of that would be a bear. |
Reading through this thread, especially the parts about old vs. new, street car vs. race car I thought I would speak more from the purist side of things. I realize I will catch some s*** for this so fire away!
1. If you want a car to go fast around the track and cruise in comfort get a 911 or a Corvette, can't go wrong and they will most likely beat all comers at alot of AutoX, HPDE, Open Track type events with a good tire and minimal modification. You'll probably save alot of time and money vs. building a car also. 2. I would say that I am on the ultra-conservative side of things when it comes to street car vs. race car. Here is what constitutes a street car for me: 4 point roll bar maximum for hardtops GT-350 style or a head hoop on a space frame roadster or Cobra style car. Cars equipped in this manner won LeMans overall and class championships in the decade or decade preceding the era most of our cars were manufactured in, I think that spirit is important. Front and rear windshields made from glass not lexan Suspension bushings not rod ends 6 stage dry sump oiling shouldn't be necessary for a street car engine A street car shouldn't need the same amount of braided line necessary to plumb a space shuttle No "Jerico" style trans I will be the first to admit that my interest in pro-touring is more the quality of the high end builds than the styling, I am more of a purist I enjoy the look and feel of a period correct car for what it is. If anything older cars have a big advantage over newer cars, simplicity, that I have yet to see really be exploited by alot of the 'ultimate' builds. Bottom line, a well prepped near stock Vette or 911 will smoke anything short of a 1969 McLaren M6GT in a new vs. old street challenge. Safety: If you have a good seat, a 5 point harness and a 4 point bar on a road course, you'll be fine and probably the only thing to get hurt will be your pride and maybe checkbook from the car and Armco repairs. Safety shouldn't be taken for granted, but at this level you'll be okay in a well prepared car. Most tracks now also have so much runoff built in or retrofitted 'the wall' is becoming less of a concern at some places. Also, sponsorship and product placement may have it's place but with some cars it's getting rediculous. Nothing worse than peeking under the hood and thinking that you're reading down the vendor line of the summit catalog from all the logo's, maybe be a little subtle. |
Hey guys, here's another OUSCI vid. It's the Lingenfelter L/28 Camaro driven by "GM engineer/Pratt Miller David Mikels"
Looks like he wrung it out the best he could, and they said there is much room for improvement with more seat time and car setup. Thread on the L/28 |
^ as good as that motor sounded in the vid, it was even better in person. One of my favorite at Optima...:thumbsup:
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I like building car's.I would rather build a car for Optima than buy one.I think what make's Optima so great is all the differant type's of car's.Stock/OEM,Race Car'sd,SMOY qualtiy P-T car's,Very Nice P-T car's,What ever The Race Director(Jimi Day) think's would make for a good show.I embrace the chance to run aginst the Likes of (Danny Pop,Mark Stielow,Kyle Tucker,Brian Finch,Brian Hobaugh.)This only make us better.I also belive if someone were to run off the track a 140mph they would be in deep **** having only a 4 point roll cage or single shelby style bar.I been told the Ferrari,911,BMW,guy's really don't want to come out and beat on their car's. If you Show up w/a bone stock camaro you will most likely finish dead last.Then decal's are on the car's so the sponsor's that fork out all that dough great a little some ting back.W/O the sponsors,these event could not be run,unless the eventree's fees being big buck's.I have been to 2 of the 4 events and they just keep getting better.
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Safetey is a huge concern for me on a road course. That is why I put a cage in my car.
From the quote above I would say that I am on the ultra-conservative side of things when it comes to street car vs. race car. Here is what constitutes a street car for me: 4 point roll bar maximum for hardtops GT-350 style or a head hoop on a space frame roadster or Cobra style car. Cars equipped in this manner won LeMans overall and class championships in the decade or decade preceding the era most of our cars were manufactured in, I think that spirit is important. Safety: If you have a good seat, a 5 point harness and a 4 point bar on a road course, you'll be fine and probably the only thing to get hurt will be your pride and maybe checkbook from the car and Armco repairs. Safety shouldn't be taken for granted, but at this level you'll be okay in a well prepared car. Most tracks now also have so much runoff built in or retrofitted 'the wall' is becoming less of a concern at some places. . I am a bit puzzled with this. Advancement in safety is always improving and why would we want to use 40+ year old technology and logic? Let's go back even further when they used a leather helmet. :willy: Thunderhill in Nor Cal. is known for being a very safe track. But, it is about impossible to be 100% safe. Check out the video below. Yes, this was during a race, but this could have just as easily happened on a solo run like at so many of the Pro-Touring events we run. I don't know about you, but if this was me, I would be glad I have more than a 4 point cage. He just lost his brakes and you will see what happens. |
Good post Brian....
Ya never know when the brakes are going to fail - or the guy just ahead of you dumps his crankcase all over the track... or a tire blows... I've got video of a guy that passes me and then starts spraying coolant or oil all over the place... I backed off and let him go and slowed a bit to see what was going to happen - but I was lucky that I saw it first and he didn't just do a big dump on the track right in front of me. Several of us (on Lat G) have been down that straight and know you're hauling some serious butt down there - then it's downshift and HARD on the brakes to make the 90* ! That driver did a good job not wrecking the other guys car... so kudos to him huh? |
I know what your trying to say and safety should be number one period but that was just straight up a dumb move and driver error.
I know that turn well and he could have waited till the end of 14 and on to the straight to make the pass. |
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Yep been arround that track in the Nova and you are probably going over 100mph when you go under the bridge. and after comming down the hill and through the previous 2 corners the brakes have alot of heat in them, the Nova has proplus 14" with race pads and proper cooling ducts, and the brakes are not at 100% when you get to that spot on the track.
don't know i woudl want to hit that wall in the Nova. even tho it has a full cage (no door bars due to street use) OMP racing seats, 5 point harnesses. NOT MY IDEA OF FUN!! |
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I hate watching these vids because its always a possibility for this to happen to anyone. |
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Blake -- Just ask Charley about my driving "style" -- I just don't use the dang things (brakes) -- they just slow you down too much! :lol: |
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BRIAN -- I've seen how well your car is built.... You'd have just blasted that wall and kept on going - picked up the track on the other side -- straightened her out and then lapped somebody! :rofl: |
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Probably one of those guys that watches NASCAR just for the crashes. |
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To me, this is safety. To me, braided line is a safety feature. Running FI with non-braided line just seems a bit underwhelming in my opinion. Safety is priority #1 and these items to mentioned are all safety related. If someone wants to use rod ends because they are stronger, ergo; more safe. Then by all means, go for it. A 4 pt cage might be "enough", but if a guy wants to be more safe, who am I to tell them differently? Safety is not an item I think you can casually mandate at a bare minimum level. $.02 given. ~Eric |
I think this whole event is great. Every part about it wants me to spend money on my old mustang and compete. Which is the point right? I have a great street car that works and i can take it to the auto-x and be somewhat competitive. It has a very tired 302ci motor that might put out 210 HP with a T-5 transmission. It's a fun car, my wife can hop in it and drive it as well. However, the road race aspect of this event separates the group.
If running on any road course, I certainly want the most safety available in my car. My father was a road racer when i was a small child. He took his SCCA GT-1 Corvette out to Laguna Seca, Crashed it and rung his head on the roll cage. Put him in the hospital for a day or two and had a hard time remembering that he had a wife and two kids. Point being, that was a racecar with all the safety requirements and he still got hurt. So taking a "Street Car", which only has a upgraded seats, CROW lap belt, no Cage -- add no roof to this argument -- and safety items, to a track seems a bit out of my league right now. Once OUSCI added the road course to the event, a EXTREMELY high level of safety must be at the top of everyone list. Yeah, sure you can take any car you want to an "open track" (insert Organization Name here) but with OUSCI, you're competing with a clock/timer against other drivers. To me, that sounds like qualifying for a RACE in a RACE CAR. Not Street Car Stuff? This is just how I see it. If I'm ever lucky enough to compete in any of these events, I'll bring all the safety items available to the road course, including a full roll cage. And at that point I'll probably have a High HP motor, with a Straight Cut Gear Transmission box and all the bad ass Suspension possible. After all I love the competition and I know what it's going to take to win. - joel |
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As for a cage, plenty of production cars open track at much faster times than some guys running 10 point cages. At the end of the day even in a purpose built racing car I am much more concerned about how good my seat is, my harness, my suit, my HANS, my helmet and the competency of those around me. My main point of contention is that even a sprint car, modified or formula car can be street driven with lights, brake lights, gps speedo, dot tires and a license plate. Just because something can be driven on the street doesn't mean it isn't a race car. When someone builds a car out of a vintage car that doesn't need lexan, a cage, 380mm brakes, and 800+ hp, pushrod suspension that can beat a near stock Z06, or a 458 in a track event then the ultimate street car won't be a near stock OEM car. |
Every man is capable of controlling his own destiny to some extent. This is a very fragile line to walk. Is it safe to road race a 631 hp ZR1 corvette? I'd have to say NO. Is it safe to drink a 6 pack every Friday night? Is it safe to screw hot chicks without a rubber? We all feast on danger to some extent. This is a street car event. Your local DMV is willing to pass you and issue you a set of plates. It's a street car. Your chances of killing yourself on the open road are as great or greater than on the race track.(At least in a muscle car) I don't think safety should be shun on at all. I'm all for it. My point, let a man make his own decisions. As long as the insurance policy will pay out and protect WHEN somebody gets hurt, so be it.
But it's the goverments job, my job, your job to protect Joe from killing himself. Bull Puckey He's a man, he can make his own damn decisions. |
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Here is a link to more information about the car that crashed, failed dot spec flex line, plus photos of the damage in post #906. http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums...e+line&page=23 I'm sure he would have had some serious damage to his feet/legs if it wasn't for all the foot box protection. Jon |
OUSCI Event
It would seem Mary Macaroni (Pozzi) had a valid point about the difference between a street car that can run on the track safely and a track car that can run on the street. Everyone will have a different opinion and I believe it is wise to have a open discussion about street car versus track car.
It is the nature of a racer to push the limits not only in driving but in preparation of the car. Are these items considered to be be "street" items: ( I understand everyone would draw the line in a different place. Locker Rear End I say only on a jeep front axle where it can be disengaged. Jerico Racing Transmission The name says it all. Solid Hub clutch discs (No damper springs) Not intended for street use Lexan Windows only if this was an option on the car to begin with. Fiberglass Bumpers Not on a street car. Fuel Cell open trunk to fill it. I do not think this is a good street car build. RACE GAS, I would say No must be 100% pump gas. NOT a special unleaded race gas, not even a mix. No vin number No race, (yes their was one) No Side windows, if the car came that way. Otherwise must go up and down. Wings, not a good idea on the street. Oil Preheating to start race engine (1/2 hour) Only if it is 20 below zero. Back seat removed and exhaust, muffler and battery back there. Not a good idea for a street car. It is my belief that if we do not put down some common sense street car/ show car guidelines to avoid the influx of track car's made to look like a street car. It has nothing to do with the caliber of the driver is has everything to do with being realistic as to street car guidelines. Otherwise rename this to the ultimate track car that can be driven on the street! |
My $.02
I had my car for 5 years before I transformed it into a dedicated track car. Can I still drive it on the street? Yup!! Registered and insured. Do I care to drive it on the street. Hell No!! The track is the funnest place to drive my car and I dont like screwing around on the street because its not safe and disrespectfull to the public around you. Some people here need to wake up and smell the coffee. Most all the builds you see on this site today are track/autocross motivated. There is a trend and we have shifted gears. We are now at a point where we are building race cars, running them, and loving it!! Rename the event? Thats their call and I could care less. But the reality is that we have some talented builders and drivers on this site and have turned this hobby into a sport. I believe it's called evolution and it wont stop. There will be a day when we have set safety requirements and more stringent rules due to safety and the race cars will continue to be built and the fan base will continue to grow larger. |
See, IMHO people are missing something here and all of that above "race car/street car" stuff is all a good discussion and everyone has an opinion....IF it was open to anyone that wants to run. BUT IT'S NOT.
What people are forgetting is that the cars in this event are INVITED.... by the good folks that put it on. We're having a discussion here that IMPLIES that anyone that wants to build something can come and play and run. THAT IS JUST NOT SO.... it's a "golden ticket" car - or an INVITEE. So the whole notion of "it's going to turn into such and such and event" is moot. It WILL turn into whatever the good folks that put it on want it to be. |
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My point here is that we are evolving from PT'ing to racing. Why? Because its way more fun!! |
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The thread turned from a discussion about the event into a discourse about what peoples opinions are of what constitutes a race car vs a street car. My point was/is that none of that really matters for the purposes of an all invite only event. |
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Just so you know Gae -- I agree with your description of the direction PT has taken and the very good reason you proffered. It's fun.
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