I like the title "Modern Day Vintage Race Cars". I wanted to start a magazine on them a while back with the same title then realized it was a start up of at least 125K a year.

Subscribed. Great job Payton. I'm running out of words for so many cool cars on this site. Your car is definitely at the top of the list.

Had to go back
 

to dig this thread up. Been a busy summer for sure on my end.

I have a few small updates. Ended up with a 6.2 rod, looks like the bore will be 4.180 so I am going to be a little larger than the original 393 ci.

Heads are back and ready to assemble. Need to "cc" and see where we are so we can have some pistons made. Compression may bump up to 11:1 because I am back on making this thing fuel injected. No flow numbers on the heads...the guy that did them ran a TRD (toyota) program on them and they do not want the numbers out. Here are a few cell phone pics of the heads

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9997d943.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...ps74d005ba.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...psa3d92b69.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5c4cfa4a.jpg

Block is back
 

from having the lifter bores done.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...ps47b9c5f2.jpg

Just curious what is more important on a race / track car. Horsepower or Torque ???

My very first project (1984 ) was a Toyota 4 banger and I bought everything Toyota sold including the supercharger. I was able to smoke all four 40" tall super swampers.

Personally
 

I would want a big fat torque curve on a road course to pull out of the corners.

Payton heads and block look awesome! Are you going solid roller?

x2 on the flat torque curve, but it can't be cammed like an RV :thumbsup:

Yes
 

Soild rollers, Crower if I am not mistaken. Cam is fairly large, but have not decided on which one. Ed is about to dyno an SB2 that he built for a Trans Am car and we are going to see how that one does.

Quoting Jake here: "Nothing like a small block spinning @ 8500."

I like it! :thumbsup:

Killer, Payton! :bigun2:

Come on Ron... this ain't no stinkin LS motor. :snapout:

:D

Well look at you Ricky Bobby.... all top secret and stuff. :lol:

3.625 stroke, yes?

Stroke
 

is 3.600. Trying to limit power curve to 8500...which just sounds stupid.

Payton, I'm confused... You are using SB2 heads, correct? Or did I miss something along the way? If so, how/why would a TRD CNC program (I'm assuming by program you meant a CNC porting of the heads) work on these heads?

I'm assuming I missed something obvious... :twak:

Heads and block look killer Payton. My wife thought I was checking out some nudie pictures when she heard me say beautiful! I used to love hearing my 69 Z/28 humming up to 8000, Music to my ears...

I like the rod to stroke ratio for that rpm requirement, 1.72 is solid.
throw in my .02, worth maybe a penny... and specific to road racing, not drag racing.

keep in mind that HP is a multiplied number with torque the basis of the math and a multiplier of 5252, so it is basically a math measurement - dynos measure torque and then do math to quote a HP number and this is also why HP always equals torque at 5252 rpm.

HP = Torque x RPM ÷ 5252

Keeping that in mind, you want the most torque you can get in the power band that you are going to use which tends to start looking like HP since race cars operate at high rpm. So while the torque seems low in an F1 car, the HP is huge because it is multiplied by such a high rpm value - that said, that is the powerband they want to use to get the most overall power out of that engine combo so they are technically maximizing the engine for max torque in that powerband.

The way I have always tried to do it is have the car make max torque near the bottom of my rpm range -500rpm and max HP at the top rpm. So if I am going to shift at 8500rpm and my rpm drop is 1500 rpm with a race trans, I would want max torque around 6500 rpm with the torque curve as flat as possible up to 8500 rpm with the max HP around 8500. You don't want it to be too peaky of course as there will be turns where it is better to go below the band and "lug" out of the turn than shift and 1 second later shift again.

Point = while a slightly smaller cam might make a higher torque number at 6000 rpm than the bigger cam at 7000 rpm, may be even flat as hell from 4500-6500, and appear to only rob a little HP at 8000-8500 rpm, it does absolutely nothing for me on a road course because I will rarely use the power below 6500 rpm, maybe that one turn that it is easier to lug the engine than to downshift only to upshift a second later.

So, as an example, my current engine combo for my road race car - I wanted to use a tappet cam for longevity which limits the rpm a fair amount, which then adds to component longevity with springs, rods, so forth as higher rpm is higher loads on these parts. I have 7 years on this engine with zero rebuilding and it is just now starting to use oil and puff a little smoke, so I have gotten a lot out of it :)

Max torque = 5000 rpm with max HP at 7100 rpm. That is a 2100 rpm band. I had a 1500-1700 rpm drop on my shifts, so at 7100 rpm I would drop to 5400-5600 rpm which is peak torque + 500. If I felt like lugging a turn down to 4500 rpm I would, but I don't optimize for that. I could run out to 7500 rpm with no issues if it was required to run deep into a turn, but generally I shifted around 7K and dropped to around 5500 rpm.

That all goes out the window if you demand 2500 rpm drops of the trans, which then requires a much broader powerband from 5500-8500, but a spread that wide on shifts is a bad idea for a number of reasons, not just powerband.

396 cubic inches... nice number. :thumbsup:

and yeah it's stupid... stupid awesome. :gitrdun:

Bryan
 

You are not missing anything as I asked the same question. Apparently the Chevy, Ford and Toyota head intake runners are all the same in Cup but everyone has what they think is the best program for the port work....learn something new every day.

Also learned after they run a race they pull the heads off and have a CNC machine that will do another valve job on the head and only take .002 off the seats. Crazy race stuff for sure at that level.

I need to go back and do the calcuations, but Ed told me 415.06 CI

Don't fall out of your chair, Dave's math is correct. :D

I figured it was
 

too lazy to work a calculator. Guess I can put 396 Camaro badges on my car now.

Well that sure is interesting... I wonder how that works? The SB2 heads have been around for a while, and Toyota is relatively new to the sport. So I'm curious how that is done from a design perspective...

Thanx for the info!

Now you have me thinking
 

Cubic inch calculation=3.147 x radius squared x stroke x 8

piston bore 4.180
stroke 3.60

395.89 CI

another easy formula so you can use bore diameter
 

3.1416 (pi) x bore squared x stroke x 2.

That said, I am assuming you have a 9" deck height on the SB2? If so you would have a 1" compression height on the piston?

9" deck - 6.2" rod - 1.8" (stoke/2) = 1" CH

that is a short piston ;) Every time I would build up a 347 Ford (stroker 302) which has a 1.1 CH I would always think that piston seemed so short. The good news is your rod to stroke ratio as I mentioned before is better than a 347 and even tho' a 347 wasn't all that bad (1.59) they would rock the pistons a fair amount in high rpm engines and wear the skirts. I suspect having less side load from the longer R/S will help keep the pistons from rocking so much. I am a big fan of R/S values in the 1.7 range if you can't already tell. It does definitely keep the piston weight down which is good at 8500 rpm :unibrow:

Heck, the LS7 has nearly as short of a piston and much worse R/S and I bought a car with one so what do I know hahaha. 'Course 8500 rpm isn't in my future anytime soon.

Nice updates - that motor is going to be sick!

What kind of EFI you going to go w/?

You are correct
 

Very high piston pin, will be into the lower oil ring, no big deal. Very short piston skirt...like all NASCAR motors.

I will have plenty of photos once the pistons are made.

Speaking with Mike Norris now. Possibly a FAST system. Was going to convert it to coil over plug and run a LS1 box, but they only go to 8,000.

:lmao:

That's what I was thinking too Aaron

:knokwood: and to think I only hit 6100 at Gingerman, lol.

Payton, this thing is gonna be sweet. Can't wait to see it come together.

Dude, found your thread. I love this pic right here--that is awesome. Looking forward to seeing you work your magic on this one. All we ask is that you bring it to at least one West Coast event when it's running.

D

Been some time since I have posted here
 

Glad your back DFresh

Have lots of pictures to share and seem like no time to post them up. Here are a couple of pics of a quick motor mock up and to see if my Cup headers are going to work.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1848128c.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6302ae0c.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...psff36975c.jpg

I wanted room to drop the motor down
 

So Jake notched me a place out of the lower cross member

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...psa425b03c.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4e6ba821.jpg

Dude you're holding out on us. I know you have more pics than that. :hitaxeonthehead:

That motor/headers fit nicely in there it appears... I like the X member notch. I may have to do that same thing. How much lower is that?

Very Cool Payton.

That header shot is money, they just scream race car.

Thanks guys
 

It gave me about 2 inches.

Lots more pics, just need to find the time to post up.

It looks great in there. It amazes me how big those heads are. Very Nice!

Oh, very nice!!!

That is going to be killer! Put up more pics of the fab stuff please.

D

Macklemore would be proud
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QK8mJJJvaes
Awesome work being done.

cup headers :hail:

Finishing up the frame
 

before the body goes back on

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...ps76a5e31e.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...ps72b11733.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...psc825f696.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...psbc3924ec.jpg