Look DG no jackstands! :unibrow:

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-C...CJHFdmx-XL.jpg

Front suspension is mostly reassembled and the car is sitting at ride height. I swapped out my front springs with some Hotchkis springs I had which should be slightly stiffer. The Hotchkis springs overall length was 1" shorter but they had finished ends and my old springs had one unfinished and one 'semi' finished end.

I was guessing the finished ends and stiffer rate wouldn't compress as much but the only way to find out was put it together and set it down. As it worked out it's only 1/8" lower than the old springs.

Now the issues.......previously I was not running lower bump stops and never have experienced harsh bottoming or coil bind. I installed some 1-5/8" cone bump stops on the lower arms and that leaves 1/2" to 5/8" free space between the bump stops and the frame stops.........not good, nor is the anti-roll bar relationship to the lower arm. That bar bushing grease zerk has 1" clearance from the lower arm......I'm thinking grease it remove the zerk and plug it just to be safe.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-t...t9sd2jB-XL.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-w...w5KpVct-X2.jpg

One solution to gaining travel/clearance may be these Global West cast aluminum .375" spacers, does anyone have experience with them?
http://static.summitracing.com/globa...gls-1102_w.jpg

Global West says 1 at the spring equals 2 at the body, though with the 3/8" spacer they spec 5/8" lift, not 3/4".

Regarding stance - 5/8" lift up front would be the max without altering the rear ride height. Fender openings front to rear would be 24.5" and 24.75" if those spacers deliver as stated.

Another gain could be cutting the bump stops or replacing with shorter style. The OEM lobe/triangle stops look like they may provide more initial travel. Prothane offers triangular stops in two heights 1-1/8" & 1-1/2" and Energy offers a 1-3/8".

I'm leaning towards the spacers and 1-1/8" stops at this point.

Any experience input would be greatly appreciated! :thumbsup:

Scott, it sounds like the geometry is altered in a bad way to achieve the desired ride height. Wow, I've never heard of that happening before. LOL

If it were me, I'd put big block springs in the car to get the correct geometry, and suspension travel. Then run drop spindles to achieve the ride height your looking for. That is what I had to do on my AMX chassis. Even with an aftermarket frame stub. Geometry and travel, trump everything else.

I was going to go kind of the same route, on my car I spent countless hours cycling the front suspension with the springs removed trying to gain as much travel as I could. The more it traveled, the more stuff hit. Once I had everything clearanced and all of the travel I could get, I then measured for shock length and calculated which springs to use.

I started with about a half inch between my bump stops and the frame as well, I now have almost 2" of bump travel up front and the car only sits about a half inch higher at ride height than before.

Just ditch the wubba stops.... problem solved.


The thing to have done was to run the suspension/travel with wheel/tire mounted -- sans spring - and see what clearance issues you'd have - and then weld a stop where it needed to be for "protection" purposes.... or find/modify a wubba stop to work.


So now you can disassemble the suspension on one side and do that.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You mean mine isn't the first one? :ohsnap:

Agreed on longer springs and drop spindles as the proper cure. With the current pro-tinkering budget altered wubba stops and spacers will probably prevail.......technically it 'should' will be an 'improvement' from where it was.

2" eh............Bragger! :D

I did cycle it w/o springs, but with the stops. I optimistically put it back together to know where everything sits at ride height knowing it would most likely be disassembled.........again.

I'll have disassembly and assembly of these archaic front ends down pat when it's all said and done........whoopie.

I will say that using the flexible cutting boards for turn plates was really slick, pun intended. Though I did need one last night for dicing asparagus. :(

Norwood
 

Reminds me of the 800lb springs I had put on
the Firebird years ago... when I got it back from
the suspension guy ( a Norcal Shelby Otec guy) I
told him it sat too high.. he said the geometry was
perfect and go run it to see how it does... next event
I won and the car was on rails..

I went back and said it ran great but looks like crap
he said Dropped spindles would fix it... no one made
them at that time so I left it... now we have new arms, spindles,coilovers,
taller ball joints, different size bump stops,etc, etc.. where does it stop

Bob

Just so you know we're all white men Lance. Mine has 3" of compression, and 2" of rebound.

On my last set-up, i left the bump stops but cut them down to 3/4 to 1" at LCA (i had cut the snot outa my hotchkis springs to get desired ride height) once cut, no bump (well, when i wasn't dukes of hazzard'in it), i tend to drive the car like my Katoom, perhaps i should stop doing that.....

Judging by your control arms and bump stops, you have way more rebound than compresson available in your suspension. Is your shock in the same place in the stroke? Let's pretend you have 1.5 inches of compression left at the wheel. That will likely result in half that at the grease zerk?

Taking some measurements and then running the suspension through its range without the springs will allow you to dial it all in. Raising the car will need to happen either way if you want to be anywhere close to your shock sweet spot and greatest handling capabilities.

This is why people buy subframes. :sarcasm_smiley:

As long as you don't drop it too fast off the floor jack....I don't see any issues.

Now that I've removed MY speculation by putting it on it's own weight and seen the clearance issues first hand, the spring spacers and shorter bump stops are in transit. That's certainly not going to make it ideal but it may be an improvement from the original setup and where it sits currently. Far from ideal, but with the firmer springs and spacers it could deliver twice the compression travel of the original setup and be in the softer valving range of the shock depending on how the Koni's stacks are setup. Won't know until it's on the ground and driven a bit......hopefully the springs don't dramatically settle into the pockets even though I've tried to put them in their 'sweet' spot.


.......and adjustable coil overs
.......or C5 Z06's
.......or Miata's in my situation. :D

:twak: :thankyou:

I bought an entire car (Hobaugh's Miata) for HALF what a DSE sub costs... and if it gets damaged at a non insured track event (many of you readers fail to consider that!) I could just cover it with dirt and leave it where it wrecked.

My CPA has run his Boxster at PIR and The Ridge and really enjoys it. I asked him if he was insuring it at track days and he said insurance is available but hasn't. I told him about your Miata purchase and this exact quote which created brief laughter followed by a moment of silence when the logic and reality hit him. :D

I've ran both ways, with and without track insurance.

At least around here, the clinker seems to be timing and scoring device included or no.

No transponder = insurance available, event with transponder = no insurance available.

Modern logistics amazes me......ordered the spacers and stops from Summit yesterday at 1:35 pm and they're delivered to my door this morning at 8:35 am via standard shipping.

Norwood
 

I checked into insurance for the Track and Dot road race tires
and running in the Race group will not allow you to have the
insurance... Just had the Pantera appraised and my appraiser
has an insurance guy who said once it is loaded off the trailer
at the track you are on your own... another buddy said you
can get it for the Paddock.. big deal

I often think of this when the car is buried into a turn with a
guy in front of me hoping all goes well on the exit... or I could
just take it to a show and sit around and not run the car... fat chance

Bob-Texas bound to run the high banks

Those do not look to be DSE spec... :rules:

Since my parts arrived early yesterday and I had a window of opportunity I pulled the springs and did some experimenting and altering.

Rubber bump stops with the suspension fully compressed against the corner weight of the car. The rubber stops free length is 1.5" and it compressed .5".
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-k...kQxbV6T-XL.jpg

Same scenario as above with 1.25" poly sump stop in place. So it appears to have gained .25" of free travel and similar compressed travel, though beyond sitting on it's own weight the poly should be firmer than the rubber but the zerk is still in jeopardy in a G-out.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-s...sMkSDDj-XL.jpg

Hotchkis bar link installed at supplied length (1-5/8" spacer) in compression.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-M...MZmKxW9-XL.jpg

Same scenario with 1" spacer.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-g...gsQKs76-XL.jpg

Same scenario with .75" spacer.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-3...3f5sH9T-XL.jpg

Suspension in full drop with bar link adjusted finger tight which leaves the bar holding the suspension approx 1" short of full drop.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-D...DfBQzBz-XL.jpg

Sitting at estimated ride height.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-r...rmd2r8h-XL.jpg

Global West cast aluminum 3/8" spacers.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-9...97386Cr-XL.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-F...FPZ6RfK-XL.jpg

Sitting at ride height with spacers installed.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-P...PPH7HfL-XL.jpg

It went from .5" free travel to 1.25 free travel with spacers and poly bump stops. Not ideal but a big percentage gain. Fender height went from 23-7/8" to 24-5/8".

Hopefully I'll be able to button up all the loose ends tomorrow, get it on the ground and set the caster/camber/toe and take it for a short test drive, then recheck dimensions and safety inspect before taking it on a real shakedown drive weather permitting.

You can always remove the zirc....


Stay away from railroad tracks....


Use 650# springs so it rides like a hay wagon....


Use a shorter shock so the shock becomes the stop (and then ruins the shock)....


Install shock bump stocks (a collar)...


Copy PK - DG - RD and leave in on the jack stands forever...

Hey Sieg, how about relocate the zirc to be horizontal pointing forward? Weld that hole shut and drill/tap a new one.

You might have to drill a pass through in your urethane and rtv the existing passageway.

I have added zircs to non zirced bushings in a similar fashion, scoring my own passageways with a dremel etc...

I've been told grease really isn't that necessary on sway bar bushings anyway...kind of depends on the material of the bushing I guess.

I'm more worried about the sway bar end link bending under the bind created at full droop with the short spacer in it...

I like what you are going through with the testing though, keep up the good work.

The zerk will be used then replace with a cap screw. The car doesn't see a lot of miles and the urethane bushings shouldn't require frequent service.

The railroad tracks in Oregon aren't a problem.......it's the wagon tracks that'll kill you.

I believe the Hotchkis springs are 600# so it should be real plush. :D

The Koni's up front survived the previous setup without puking so they should survive this one.

I'll probably split the difference on the spacer and cut the Hotchkis spacers to 7/8" , the link bolt is just grade 8 $3.99 a lb. stuff at the local Wilco farm store.

I think you will be suprised by the ride. Where your springs are located in relation to the LCA piviot, there is a lot of mechanical advantage being applied. You will be fine

I take offense to the jack stand comment GW. I am not using jack stands...2x3 welded directly to the frame. I like more permanent solutions for the long term.

Your comment of the "wagon tracks" reminds me of the wheel ruts in the blacktop roads up north. Hwy 38 North of Grand Rapids MN on the way to Big Fork is a beautiful windy piece with lots of elevation change... but sees lots of heavy trucks particularly logging rigs.

In about '95 I smacked my finned cast aluminum "deep" TCI th350 pan and header collectors on the center of my lane because the wheel ruts were so deep going through a low area between two hills. It blew my vacuum modulator hose off and the thing would not shift below about 6500 rpm without it. It isn't easy to bribe a kid at a gas station to let you use a lift, but it can be done.

Bar links installed w/ 7/8" spacers. LCA bump stops narrowed due to spring interference. Shocks installed. Chased camber/caster settings most of the day and finally got it in the zone. Thankfully I installed the offset UCA cross shafts because I had to flip the right side to obtain balanced settings.

Preliminary settings:
Left Cam/Cas -.6 / 5.6
Right Cam/Cas -.7 / 5.4

I plan on setting the toe at 1/16" total for a starting point.

Once it's on the ground and driven a bit so it settles in I'd like to get Cam/Cas Left -.5 / 5.0 and Right at .6 / 5.5.

My previous setup wouldn't allow caster above 4.0 without at least -1.0+ camber, so assuming my work is correct I'm somewhat satisfied...........but how it drives is the critical factor.

It should be a noticeable improvement!!

Isn't it crazy how just a small shim on a control arm mount can change both the camber and caster so much? Sure makes one appreciate the $$$ hunter alignment machines that tells the operator exactly how much of a shim to put where to get to the desired setting on the first try huh? :D

Remember that caster is really only helping you for "straight line" driving / tracking. The factory setting on a manual steer '55 Chevy was 0 caster... in an effort to help low speed steering (that and the huge steering wheel). Once you go to power steering then the caster can start rising. I think most newer cars are running 5*

The one thing I hate the most in a car is bump steer.... When watching track videos -- I see a lot of it in a lot of cars. I fail to understand someone that would try to dial in their "track car" and yet tolerate a bunch of bump steer. Now that I've mentioned it -- watch for it when you're watching someones track video.

Thus the extra .5* on the right to compensate for road crown. :thumbsup:

I had the left side at 6.6* but the right wasn't coming in........once it's settled I'll get serious with the settings.

I installed +.5" tie rod ends to hopefully help with bump steer, I don't have a bump steer gauge and didn't have enough room in front of the car on the stands to do the laser plotting trick.

At ride height the steering arms 'appear' to be on a good plain.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-M...-MjNWd6M-L.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-G...-GZ7C8hQ-L.jpg

After this mornings BBall games I'll get the toe set.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-w...wmBFFgR-XL.jpg

:trophy-1302:

:popcorn2:

:whistling:

:mock:

:peepwall:

What you'll notice the most is all the new "wubba" in the suspension -- not your settings. It will feel like a new car up front. Not like a new car - just a new car compared to the old factory crap. It's good work and will be noticeable and you'll like it.

It just needs enough to not squeak....especially when you go urethane.

It's a driver! :excited:
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-q...q2FRRWV-XL.jpg

Stance is close with a full tank.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-F...-FcwZDt6-L.jpg

With the toe set at a 1/16" in it drives exceptional. Turn-in and mid-corner correction response is so much better I feel like I cheated somebody. :unibrow:

Awesome Scott, the first to leave the nest of the jack stand army. Has to be liberating, and it make feel far superior then, "you know" the rest of the army.

I think Scotty has figured out there are not little elves coming out at night to build your car while you sleep.... In other words.... You actually have to do something - or as I say in my little shop "PICK UP A TOOL!". LOL

Thanks RS.

Preferred use of jack stands:

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-D...DTnGMTj-XL.jpg

YaBut <a type of fish> Did ya use the new toe boards??

Thus why I'm under the car again this morning before 7 a.m. correcting steering wheel alignment. :rules:

DG's probably still drooling on his pillow, RD's a least shoveling stalls or something of similar productivity, and PK's probably on a ladder washing his truck. :D

Worked like champs. 1/16" (.0625") toe in vs the previous settings were .04" L and .05" R.

Car doesn't seem to dart around as much but it could be due to the new UCA/LCA bushings.

Steering wheel alignment was off after the new parts installation. The range of adjustment (lack of) in the tie rod ends was an issue. I couldn't shorten the left arm enough to get the steering wheel square. After disassembly this morning it appears the threaded section of the inner rod end could have been cut further to eliminate the issue. I'm guessing I need to gain about 4-5 mm of adjustment

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-V...V8PGJWR-XL.jpg

Since I don't have a left hand thread 5/8" die laying around, it appears there are 2 options. Grind down both jamb nuts from .380" (9.6 mm) to .202" or shorten the nicely finished billet sleeve, the latter being the easiest and not compromising nearly 50% of the threaded surface.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-k...k3SzN8v-XL.jpg

Suggestions before I hack them up?